Soul Sleep yes or no?

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

it’s the same body that is glorified
But it still has the outward sign of crucifixtion

Jesus willingly sacrificed his human body, he was raised up a spirit, a life giving spirit as the scriptures tells us at 1Corinthians 15:42-45

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Here is something else to ponder....they never found His body. His grave clothes were still in the tomb...but His body was never to be found.
Why?

The True God did away with Jesus body so just as no one knows where Moses body is no one knows where Jesus body is.
When Jesus appeared to Mary Madalene he was fully clothed, where the clothes come from? The ones he was buried with were still in the tomb.

 

[Heart2Soul]

The True God did away with Jesus body so just as no one knows where Moses body is no one knows where Jesus body is.
When Jesus appeared to Mary Madalene he was fully clothed, where the clothes come from? The ones he was buried with were still in the tomb.

IMHO to be considered resurrected from death back to life you have to have the same body...so I believe Jesus spirit returned to His body and it became glorified at His ascenscion...I believe that death only happens to our bodies...our spirit lives on and returns to God who gave it...
I also believe that Jesus lived His entire life by example...excluding being crucified....we will follow the exact same thing as He did.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

IMHO to be considered resurrected from death back to life you have to have the same body...so I believe Jesus spirit returned to His body and it became glorified at His ascenscion...I believe that death only happens to our bodies...our spirit lives on and returns to God who gave it...
I also believe that Jesus lived His entire life by example...excluding being crucified....we will follow the exact same thing as He did.

I know you think Jesus took his sacrificial body off the alter but he didn't. Jesus willingly sacrificed his human body he didn't take that sacrifice back. 1Corinthians 15:42-45 tells us that Jesus was resurrected a life giving spirit, that's what I'm going to believe. The spirit that's in man is the same spirit that's in animal's. So the spirit in man is a impersonal active force that animates the flesh of man and animals.

 

[Heart2Soul]

I know you think Jesus took his sacrificial body off the alter but he didn't. Jesus willingly sacrificed his human body he didn't take that sacrifice back. 1Corinthians 15:42-45 tells us that Jesus was resurrected a life giving spirit, that's what I'm going to believe. The spirit that's in man is the same spirit that's in animal's. So the spirit in man is a impersonal active force that animates the flesh of man and animals.

I appreciate your input. I probably will just have to keep studying and praying about it.

 

[Behold]

1Corinthians 15:42-45 tells us that Jesus was resurrected a life giving spirit, that's what I'm going to believe.

Did you read all the New Testament?
Did you read that Jesus rose from the Dead?
Did you read that Jesus ascended into Heaven, and the Apostles saw him?
Did you read that when they first saw Jesus resurrected they touched him?
Did you read that after Jesus rose from the dead He was on the shore cooking fish, and Peter shared some with the Lord?

And you think Jesus's body is missing?
So really, just read all the NT, and stop reading commentaries, is my advice.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Did you read all the New Testament?
Did you read that Jesus rose from the Dead?
Did you read that Jesus ascended into Heaven, and the Apostles saw him?
Did you read that when they first saw Jesus resurrected they touched him?
Did you read that after Jesus rose from the dead He was on the shore cooking fish, and Peter shared some with the Lord?

And you think Jesus's body is missing?
So really, just read all the NT, and stop reading commentaries, is my advice.

I have always said Jesus Christ rose from the dead, why are you asking me if I read Jesus rose from the dead? Are you now trying to say I'm denying Jesus rose from the dead?
Are you not saying that Jesus was resurrected with the human body he sacrificed? Because I'm saying that Jesus sacrificed that human body and wasn't resurrected with that same human body that he sacrificed. Jesus sacrificed that human body he didn't take that sacrifice back he left that human body he willingly sacrificed on the alter and was resurrected as a life giving spirit and could manifest bodies that Jesus followers could see and touch and even appear with a body that had the nail and spear marks on his body so Thomas would believe.
I've read in the scriptures that the apostles and disciples didn't recognize Jesus when they saw him but only the way Jesus said something made them believe he was the resurrected Jesus. Three days after his death and they didn't recognize Jesus when he appeared to them. Why? Are they that forgetful of what Jesus looked like? If he was resurrected with the same human body he was put to death why is it the apostles and disciples of Jesus couldn't recognize him? Also I've read in the scriptures that the followers of Jesus would be in a room with the doors closed and Jesus suddenly would appear to them. There was a time he was talking to a couple of his followers when all of a sudden he would vanished out of their sight right in front of them while they were looking.
Too many people reason on the scriptures in such a way that shows they believe Jesus took that human sacrifice off the alter, but he didn't. If you have chosen to believe that Jesus took his sacrificial body back and took that human body off the alter then I disagree that you're going by scripture.The scriptures testify that Jesus is the last Adam who was made a life giving spirit. Since this is said in 1Corinthians chapter 15 in which Paul was speaking about the resurrection this means that Jesus was resurrected a life giving spirit. As a spirit Jesus could manifest in different bodies as angels had done in the past.

 

[Behold]

I
Are you not saying that Jesus was resurrected with the human body he sacrificed?

Paul said that this corruption will put on incorruption.
He's talking about the new body that the born again are yet to receive.
When Jesus rose from the dead, he had it.
He's not waiting to get it, whereas the born again are waiting, still.

The verse that says "we shall all be CHANGED"...."in the Twinkling of an EYE"..........That is not for Jesus, as He walked out of the Tomb, already changed.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Paul said that this corruption will put on incorruption.
He's talking about the new body that the born again are yet to receive.
When Jesus rose from the dead, he had it.
He's not waiting to get it, whereas the born again are waiting, still.

The verse that says "we shall all be CHANGED"...."in the Twinkling of an EYE"..........That is not for Jesus, as He walked out of the Tomb, already changed.[/QUOTE\]

I agree that when Jesus was resurrected he was resurrected with a incorruptible body which means the human body Jesus had before his death was a corruptible body. We have to understand however that there is a difference between a thing's being corrupt and it's being corruptible, that is, capable of being corrupted. The first man Adam created with a corruptible body allowed himself to be corrupted because of his disobedience causing himself to fall into a imperfect state, so all of us his offspring were born in an imperfect state, born in sin. As I said Jesus had a corruptible body when on earth before his death, but hat doesn't mean he allowed himself to become corrupt when he was tempted. If Jesus had a incorruptible body while on earth before his death then he would have been beyond corruption beyond temptation, yet the scriptures show that Jesus was tempted just as we were tempted but he chose not to be corrupted because he never ever gave in to the temptations and acted on them. This shows that the first Adam was able to choose to be obedient to the True God. He had the ability to not be corrupted even though he had a corruptible body. That's the truth about the human body that Adam was created with, that it could be corrupted if that person chose to disobey God, which Adam did. So it wasn't impossible for the first Adam to be consistently obedient to the True God though he had a corruptible body. Those with faith in God know that God would never command the first Adam who was created with a corruptible body to obey a command that was beyond his ability to obey. So whatever command the True God would have given the first Adam he was able to obey without corrupting himself.
The scriptures show that Jesus was changed from a corruptible human body to a immortal incorruptible spirit body, after his resurrection. So as I said and the scriptures agree that Jesus wasn't resurrected with that corruptible body he sacrificed and put on the alter of God.

 

[The Learner]

I believe when we die we are ushered into the presence of God. Here is my reasoning as to why there is no "soul sleep" upon death.

Absent the body, present with the Lord. (Apostle Paul) 2 Corinthians 5:8

It is appointed for men to die, then comes the judgment. Hebrews 9:27


Today you will be with me in paradise. (Jesus to the thief on the cross)

The beheaded saints under the altar of God pleading with Him to avenge them. They are not in soul sleep. (Revelation 6:10)

The story of the rich man and Lazarus. They were conscious after death. Perhaps this parable should not be taken literally, mind, I'm just throwing it out there.

What do you think? Please use scripture to justify your position. God bless!

Isaiah 14
Easy-to-Read Version
Israel Will Return Home
14 The Lord will again show his love to Jacob. He will again choose the people of Israel. He will give them their land. Then the non-Israelites[a] will join the Israelites, and both will become one family—Jacob’s family. 2 Those nations will bring the Israelites back to their land. The men and women from the other nations will become slaves to Israel. In the past, those people forced the Israelites to become their slaves. But in the future the Israelites will defeat those nations, and Israel will then rule over them in the Lord’s land. 3 In the past, you were slaves. People forced you to work hard. But the Lord will take away the hard work you were forced to do.

A Song About the King of Babylon
4 At that time you will begin to sing this song about the king of Babylon:

The king was cruel when he ruled us,
but now his rule is finished.
5 The Lord breaks the scepter of evil rulers;
he takes away their power.
6 In anger, the king of Babylon beat the people.
He never stopped beating them.
He was an evil ruler who ruled in anger.
He never stopped hurting people.
7 But now, the whole country rests and is quiet.
Now the people begin to celebrate.
8 You were an evil king,
and now you are finished.
Even the pine trees are happy.
The cedar trees of Lebanon rejoice.
They say, “The king chopped us down,
but now the king has fallen,
and he will never stand again.”
9 The place of death is excited
that you are coming.
Sheol is waking the spirits
of all the leaders of the earth for you.
Sheol is making the kings stand up
from their thrones to meet you.
10 They will make fun of you, saying,
“Now you are as dead as we are.
Now you are just like us.”
11 Your pride has been sent down to Sheol.
The music from your harps announces the coming of your proud spirit.
Maggots will be the bed you lie on,
and other worms will cover your body like a blanket.

 

[friend of]

@The Learner hi there. My apologies. I'm not entirely sure how those verses relate to what I said. Care to elaborate?

 

[Angelina]

Soul sleep may have been a thing before Christ' death and resurrection but I do not believe it is the case now. Believers who die post Christ are very much alive and live in the Paradise of God, in heaven until all things have been put under Christ's feet...

 

[quietthinker]

Luke 24:39
“See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.

 

[The Learner]

@The Learner hi there. My apologies. I'm not entirely sure how those verses relate to what I said. Care to elaborate?

It shows that those in the grave even the bad side sleep like we do on earth and are awake like we do too.

 

[The Learner]

Soul sleep may have been a thing before Christ' death and resurrection but I do not believe it is the case now. Believers who die post Christ are very much alive and live in the Paradise of God, in heaven until all things have been put under Christ's feet...

In Peter's letters, Jesus preach to those in the grave. There is no reason to believe that has changed.

 

[Johann]

I believe when we die we are ushered into the presence of God. Here is my reasoning as to why there is no "soul sleep" upon death.

Absent the body, present with the Lord. (Apostle Paul) 2 Corinthians 5:8

It is appointed for men to die, then comes the judgment. Hebrews 9:27


Today you will be with me in paradise. (Jesus to the thief on the cross)

The beheaded saints under the altar of God pleading with Him to avenge them. They are not in soul sleep. (Revelation 6:10)

The story of the rich man and Lazarus. They were conscious after death. Perhaps this parable should not be taken literally, mind, I'm just throwing it out there.

What do you think? Please use scripture to justify your position. God bless!

Sorry for responding with clips, but I don't believe in "soul sleep"

Not going into a circular reasoning debate with anyone who holds a different viewpoint

 

[Davy]

Soul sleep may have been a thing before Christ' death and resurrection but I do not believe it is the case now. Believers who die post Christ are very much alive and live in the Paradise of God, in heaven until all things have been put under Christ's feet...

Yeah, and because Lord Jesus gave the example of Luke 16 about Lazarus and the rich man in Paradise, and also what He told the malefactor crucified with Him that they would be in Paradise that day, that creates a major conflict with those who think when our flesh dies that we literally sleep in the ground waiting to be resurrected.

Likewise with Apostle Paul in 2 Corinthians 5 teaching that if our flesh body was dissolved, we still have another body not made with hands (i.e., non-flesh), eternal in the heavens, that also goes directly against any idea that our conscious awareness is dependent upon being in a flesh body. Same thing in 1 Peter 3 about the "spirits in prison" that Jesus preached The Gospel to, and especially 1 Peter 4:5-6 which puts all doubt to rest that The Gospel was preached to the 'dead' (not demons) so they might be judged according men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. Simply much Biblical evidence all over the place against men's theory of 'soul sleep'.

 

[Aunty Jane]

In Peter's letters, Jesus preach to those in the grave. There is no reason to believe that has changed.

I don't believe that Peter's words mean what you think they do....

1 Peter 3:18-20.....
"Because Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, to bring you to God, by being put to death in the flesh but by being made alive in the spirit.
19 In it [in his spiritual state] he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 after they were disobedient long ago when God patiently waited in the days of Noah as an ark was being constructed. In the ark a few, that is eight souls, were delivered through water." (NET)

Who were the "spirits" that Jesus preached to? It says that they were "in prison" or more specifically in "Tartarus" which is often erroneously translated as "hell". These were the wicked spirits who materialized and influenced the world of Noah's time in such to such a wicked level, that it prompted God to deal with it in a unique way.....he flooded the whole world so that all the wicked humans perished, and the angels were sent back to the spirit realm where God put them under restraint. That is what Tartarus is.

2 Peter 2:4...
"Certainly God did not refrain from punishing the angels who sinned, but threw them into Tarʹta·rus, putting them in chains of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment."
This word "Tartarus" appears only once in the NT....and it says that these spirits are "in chains"....we know that literal chains would be useless on spirit creatures, but nonetheless they are under the kind of restraint that only God can provide.

Strongs Concordance defines Tartarus as ....

1. "the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews
2. to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus."

It is very doubtful that the beliefs given to the Jews by God were anything like the beliefs of the pagans, particularly about death. They were warned NOT to adopt the ways or beliefs of the pagan nations around them (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)....and the Jews had no belief in immortal souls. Sheol was the grave where the dead are not conscious. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)

Peter identifies them as "angels" who sinned in Noah's day.

The Bible explains itself, if you let it....

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yeah, and because Lord Jesus gave the example of Luke 16 about Lazarus and the rich man in Paradise

The rich man and Lazarus is a parable, not a literal story. Taken literally it makes not a lick of sense.
Was the rich man said to be wicked? Was the beggar said to be righteous?
Are heaven and hell within speaking distance to one another?
What is the "bosom of Abraham"?
Can a drop of water on someone's finger cool a person in a burning hell? Seriously?

and also what He told the malefactor crucified with Him that they would be in Paradise that day, that creates a major conflict with those who think when our flesh dies that we literally sleep in the ground waiting to be resurrected.

Does it? :smlhmm:
Was the thief "with Jesus" that day? What did Jesus tell him after he had expressed remorse for their ridicule...?

Luke 23:43...
"One of the criminals who was hanging there railed at him, saying, “Aren’t you the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Don’t you fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we rightly so, for we are getting what we deserve for what we did, but this man has done nothing wrong.”
And Jesus said to him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Do you see the comma in Jesus' statement? In Greek there is no punctuation, so any punctuation marks are inserted by the translators. Move the comma to after the word "today" and it changes the whole meaning of what Jesus said to him.
Where was the Paradise that Jesus promised the man...? Heaven? That is not what Jesus said. He told him that he would be with him in "paradise".....where was the first paradise...? In heaven? No...it was right here on earth where God designed the human race to live forever.

Was Jesus in heaven on the day he died? No again!...he remained on earth in spirit form for 40 days before his ascension (Acts 1:3)....so the thief was not in heaven with Jesus that day at all. He had to wait until Jesus returned and established his Kingdom over the earth...that is when the general resurrection of the dead will take place (John 5:28-29)....both the righteous and the unrighteous are called out of their graves....the thief will be among the unrighteous and he will be taught along with all the other resurrected ones how to live the way God intended us to live here.

Likewise with Apostle Paul in 2 Corinthians 5 teaching that if our flesh body was dissolved, we still have another body not made with hands (i.e., non-flesh), eternal in the heavens, that also goes directly against any idea that our conscious awareness is dependent upon being in a flesh body.

Actually Paul was speaking of the elect who will indeed be given a new spiritual body in order to join their King in heaven.....but why do you assume that everyone is a "saint"? Not all Christians have "the heavenly calling". (Hebrews 3:1)

As Paul said, there are others who call on the name of the Lord who do not have the calling.
"...to the church of God that is in Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, and called to be saints, with all those in every place who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours."

Jesus is "Lord" to both groups. The "saints" are heaven bound, and have a specific role to play (Revelation 20:6) whereas the others are not called and have a different destiny....an earthly one. (Revelation 21:2-4) God does the choosing, not us.

Same thing in 1 Peter 3 about the "spirits in prison" that Jesus preached The Gospel to, and especially 1 Peter 4:5-6 which puts all doubt to rest that The Gospel was preached to the 'dead' (not demons) so they might be judged according men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. Simply much Biblical evidence all over the place against men's theory of 'soul sleep'.

Please see post #178 above for a scriptural explanation of that....

Paul said that even the saints would sleep in their graves awaiting Christ's return.....only then would they be resurrected.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17....
"Now we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve like the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also we believe that God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep as Christians. 15 For we tell you this by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not go ahead of those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord." (NET)

There it is plain as day....the dead in Christ "sleep" "until the coming of the Lord"

Where did Jesus say Lazarus was when he was on his way to raise him up?
"After he said this, he added, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep. But I am going there to awaken him.” 12 Then the disciples replied, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” 13 Now Jesus had been talking about his death, but they thought he had been talking about real sleep.

14 Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died." (John 11:11-14 NET)

Argue with the Bible....just read what it says, rather than what you think it says....

 

[rdclmn72]

You have Jesus mentioning lazarus and the rich man because the pharisees, because of their exposure to other beliefs believed in an immortal soul.