Soul vs SPIRIT

[rwb]

I agree. Paul isn't talking about physical death. He is talking about being condemned to eternal death. That is, never to live in the age of ages. There is no such thing as spiritually dead.

I agree! That's why I said we must understand what it means to be dead in trespasses and sins. Paul was not speaking to corpses, but to the living. Yet he says were dead in trespasses and sins. That doesn't mean the physical life-giving spirit within every man is not alive. It simply means that in this dead condition the Spirit from Christ cannot be known or heard through our spirit that is our mind & hearts, some would say our "living soul". We use the phrase "spiritually dead" that we might show death is not literal but is most certainly being spiritually dead or unable to physically hearing the Gospel for eternal life.

Without being made spiritually alive through the Spirit of Christ in us, death of our body truly would mean separation from God forever.

Eternal life is a type of life where sin does not exist; it is a life where everything that is broken, bent, and twisted now will be made straight. It is a life where love, which may be lost or lacking now, will increase in quality. Relationships, which may break down now, will grow stronger and more meaningful. Anger and sadness, which exist now, will be replaced by reconciliation, amity, and happiness.

I call this "aionic" life, after the Greek word for "age," because it will last forever and become more profound and significant each day.

When Paul said that we were "dead" in our sins, he meant that we were cut off from the final, glorious, and wonderful age to come. But now, in Christ, we are "alive" and destined for an eternal life.

Eternal life is not something we shall have or destined to have! Christ says we now have eternal life through Him when we believe. We are not given eternal physical life, but eternal life of our spirit, that is our mind & heart, the essence of who we are even while trapped in these bodies of flesh destined to die. Our spirit through Christ's Spirit shall NEVER die! Call it the age or to the end of days, or until Christ comes again, our spirit is alive forevermore. When this aionic age/time/life/days that are now since Christ has come are finished our spirit returning with Christ when He comes again from heaven will once again give our resurrected physical body immortal & incorruptible life fit for everlasting life with Christ on the new earth. That is where our hope lies, not for eternal life that we already have through His Spirit in us, our hope is for when Christ shall come again and physically resurrect our body of flesh that we shall once again be whole and "very good" as we were in the beginning created to be.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I agree! That's why I said we must understand what it means to be dead in trespasses and sins. Paul was not speaking to corpses, but to the living. Yet he says were dead in trespasses and sins. That doesn't mean the physical life-giving spirit within every man is not alive. It simply means that in this dead condition the Spirit from Christ cannot be known or heard through our spirit that is our mind & hearts, some would say our "living soul". We use the phrase "spiritually dead" that we might show death is not literal but is most certainly being spiritually dead or unable to physically hearing the Gospel for eternal life.

I agree that some folks can't hear or understand what Jesus says. But Paul's use of the term "dead" isn't meant to say anything about our condition, i.e., inability to hear Christ in our spirit, etc. Paul is talking about our status with respect to punishment.

Without being made spiritually alive through the Spirit of Christ in us, death of our body truly would mean separation from God forever.

I don't think in terms of a spirit/body dualism. Paul isn't talking about spiritually dead or spiritually alive. That isn't a thing.

Eternal life is not something we shall have or destined to have!

I disagree. Eternal life is a future hope.

Christ says we now have eternal life through Him when we believe.

Yes, we have it in the same sense that a child has an inheritance. The child is promised an inheritance. But he must wait to receive it.

We are not given eternal physical life, but eternal life of our spirit, that is our mind & heart, the essence of who we are even while trapped in these bodies of flesh destined to die.

I don't agree with your dualism.

 

[rwb]

I agree that some folks can't hear or understand what Jesus says. But Paul's use of the term "dead" isn't meant to say anything about our condition, i.e., inability to hear Christ in our spirit, etc. Paul is talking about our status with respect to punishment.

I don't think in terms of a spirit/body dualism. Paul isn't talking about spiritually dead or spiritually alive. That isn't a thing.

I disagree. Eternal life is a future hope.

Yes, we have it in the same sense that a child has an inheritance. The child is promised an inheritance. But he must wait to receive it.

I don't agree with your dualism.

This is a point at which I shall simply agree to disagree with how you have arrived at your opinions. One point, you can disagree with mankind being both flesh and spirit, what you term "dualism" but in doing so you deny what is written.

 

[Ritajanice]

Show us where it says that.

When you answer all of my other questions?

 

[JBO]

Exactly! When we hear the Word of God (the Gospel) that we might believe the Gospel through faith, the work of God that is given according to God's grace.

You did it again. We don't believe through faith. Believing in God, in the word of God (the gospel), is faith. Faith in God is believing in God. So long as you refuse to acknowledge and understand that really very simple fact, you will continue to be confused about all things soteriological.

 

[Ritajanice]

Show us where it says that.

◄ Ephesians 1 ►

Berean Standard Bible Par ▾ Paul’s Greeting to the Ephesians (Acts 19:8–12; Revelation 2:1–7) 1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints in Ephesus,a the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Spiritual Blessings (Romans 8:28–34) 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms. 4For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8that He lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And He has made known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to bring all things in heaven and on earth together in Christ. 11In Him we were also chosen as God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, would be for the praise of His glory. 13And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the pledge of our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession, to the praise of His glory. Spiritual Wisdom (1 Corinthians 2:6–16) 15For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in your knowledge of Him. 18I ask that the eyes of your heartb may be enlightened, so that you may know the hope of His calling, the riches of His glorious inheritance in the saints, 19and the surpassing greatness of His power to us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of His mighty strength, 20which He exerted in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly realms, 21far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22And God put everything under His feet and made Him head over everything for the church, 23which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

 

[Ritajanice]

You did it again. We don't believe through faith. Believing in God, in the word of God (the gospel), is faith. Faith in God is believing in God. So long as you refuse to acknowledge and understand that really very simple fact, you will continue to be confused about all things soteriological.

You said in a post, that you walk in Faith, even though you have no proof of Gods existence?

Are you actually being serious?

How could one possibly know they are Born Again?...if they don’t know that God exists?

 

[JBO]

You said in a post, that you walk in Faith, even though you have no proof of Gods existence?

Are you actually being serious?

How could one possibly know they are Born Again?

I wasn't talking to you. And I went back and deleted my last reply to you. I failed to recognize that it was you that I replied to. Sorry, but I have no interest in any interchange with you.

 

[Ritajanice]

I wasn't talking to you. And I went back and deleted my last reply to you. I failed to recognize that it was you that I replied to. Sorry, but I have no interest in any interchange with you.

LOL....once again.....no answer as usual....stop quoting me then, if you can’t answer...which quite apparently you can’t.

A Born Again is chosen by the will of God...not by the will of man....as his word says..

Much scripture to prove Gods Living word.

Brought from Death to Life The Lord told Nicodemus unequivocally, “That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit” (John 3:6). Only the Spirit of the living God can take dry bones, dead in trespasses and rebellion against God, and make them spiritually alive (Ephesians 2:1-5).

 

[CadyandZoe]

This is a point at which I shall simply agree to disagree with how you have arrived at your opinions. One point, you can disagree with mankind being both flesh and spirit, what you term "dualism" but in doing so you deny what is written.

Can you at least point me to a verse that uses the phrase "spiritual death"?

 

[Ritajanice]

Can you at least point me to a verse that uses the phrase "spiritual death"?

What about this verse?

Ephesians 4:18
Verse Concepts
being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart


What does hardness of heart mean?

 

[rwb]

You did it again. We don't believe through faith. Believing in God, in the word of God (the gospel), is faith. Faith in God is believing in God. So long as you refuse to acknowledge and understand that really very simple fact, you will continue to be confused about all things soteriological.

And you are doing it again, saying faith is believing in God but you still refuse to show how men who do not believe, having no faith muster up this faith/belief while spiritually dead in trespasses and sins? If believing is having faith in Christ for eternal life why can't you biblically prove it?

 

[rwb]

Can you at least point me to a verse that uses the phrase "spiritual death"?

Let me flip the question on you, how is man in unbelief "dead in trespasses and sins"? Why does Paul tell the living they were once dead when they have never died?

 

[JBO]

And you are doing it again, saying faith is believing in God but you still refuse to show how men who do not believe, having no faith muster up this faith/belief while spiritually dead in trespasses and sins? If believing is having faith in Christ for eternal life why can't you biblically prove it?

The proof is in the meaning of the words. There are not two different words in the Greek. The difference is an English nuance.

 

[CadyandZoe]

What about this verse?

Ephesians 4:18
Verse Concepts
being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart


What does hardness of heart mean?

It refers to a stubborn refusal to believe.

 

[rwb]

The proof is in the meaning of the words. There are not two different words in the Greek. The difference is an English nuance.

You have not shown the meaning of the words translated from the Greek. I have shown you how faith/believing cannot be separated, and I have shown you why. But you continue you to cling to what you have been taught rather than to submit to the FACT that none in darkness and unbelief can believe or have faith in Christ for eternal life without the Word and Spirit first enabling spirit. All the gift of God that no man may boast.

Eternal life is the gift of God that unbelieving mankind do not have apart from faith. We cannot be eternally saved unless we first have faith then turn to Christ, believing in/on Him. Faith for eternal life comes through the gift of God which is salvation through Christ.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Let me flip the question on you, how is man in unbelief "dead in trespasses and sins"? Why does Paul tell the living they were once dead when they have never died?

I thought I made that clear. Sorry, I apologize.

You and I both agree that some folks are "blind" or "deaf" or "hardened of heart" in that they either refuse to see the truth or they are incapable of understanding spiritual matters.

We both agree that this is a Biblical teaching.

As Bible students, we should be aware of the times when we might misinterpret a passage by reading one Bible truth into it where it is actually speaking about another Bible truth. I recently made this mistake myself, but unfortunately, I can't recall the specific example that would better illustrate my point.

Occasionally, during my men's group Bible study, my teacher will point out that while what I've said might be Biblically accurate, it may not be the intended message of the specific passage we are discussing.

Most everything that you have said to me about being "spiritually dead" seems true to me. And if you want to call it "spiritually dead" I have no problem with that. It's just that I don't think Paul is talking about spiritual deadness in Ephesians 2. I don't think "spiritually dead" is the intended message of Ephesians 2.

If you forgive me, please allow me to explain what I see in Ephesians 2, that might shed some light on our discussion.

Ephesians 2:1-3
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

In the above passage, I have highlighted two phrases that convey the same concept. The phrase "children of wrath" helps us understand the meaning of "dead." This term answers the question, "how do we stand with respect to God's wrath?" The answer is, "We are dead men." According to Paul, we were all once "children of wrath." The term "child" is used metaphorically to refer to growth and potential. We are called children of wrath because without divine assistance, our behavior's course and trajectory will inevitably lead to God's wrath. Therefore, the term "dead" here means subject to God's wrath due to living in sin.

I think that explanation makes the best sense of the passage, but I am open to another plausible interpretation if it makes sense of the entire passage.

 

[Behold]

I was taught the soul is breath life. That which makes the body alive and nothing more.

You had a terrible teacher.
Put them in the trash bin, and get a real one.
Its not too late.

So, now read this...


Man is :

Body

Soul ( Mind, will, emotions)

Spirit.

Now...Notice these carefully.

1.) "God is A Spirit"

2.) When we are born again, we are born again Spiritually... not mentally, and your body is unchanged.

 

[Behold]

Earthy man IS a “spirit”?


Angels are spirits.

Angels are not spirits, as every Angel in the bible was a Male, with a body.
Lucifer was not just a Spirit, in Heaven, ........and He's not just a spirt right now, manifested as Satan.

And "Earthy man".

You are not making the distinction between the Body and the Soul and The Spirit.

See, our Spirit lives IN our Body.
Our Body is "earthy" but our Spirit is God's breathed by .... "God who is A Spirit".

 

[Ritajanice]

An interesting commentary...

The Wrath of God Abides on Unbelievers (John 3:36)​

I received the following question via email:

Hello, Bob. Lately on your radio program you have said when the Bible uses the word “wrath,” you think it’s talking about TEMPORARY punishment in this life.
But look here in John 3:36: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

The questioner seems to think that John the Baptist was saying that the wrath of God will forever be poured out on unbelievers. But that is not what he said.
John the Baptist said that “the wrath of God abides on him,” that is, on the unbeliever. He did not say “the wrath of God will abide on him.” He used a present tense there, not a future tense. John the Baptist was saying that the unbeliever lives under God’s wrath here and now. He is abiding in it. That is his sphere of existence unless and until he comes to faith in Christ.
The issue in John 3:36 is that the believer has everlasting life right now and that by contrast the unbeliever has wrath right now. Of course, it is true that the believer will always have everlasting life since that is what the life is. But in terms of wrath, the unbeliever is not promised eternal wrath. If he comes to faith, he will no longer be living in the sphere ofwrath at the moment of faith, and if he begins to walk with Christ in His light, he will not abide in God’s temporal wrath. In addition, I do not believe that the lake of fire is an expression of God’s wrath. I think it is an expression of God’s justice. People reap what they sow. God’s wrath will end when He puts down the rebellion at the end of the Millennium.
Carson writes, “Believers already enjoy the eternal life that will be consummated in the resurrection of their bodies at the parousia; unbelievers stand under the looming wrath of God that will be consummated in their resurrection and condemnation” (John, p. 214).
I should note that commentators routinely suggest that while John 3:36 refers to the present experience of wrath, they see it as potentially extending forever (i.e., if one dies in unbelief). I would disagree. This is the only reference to God’s wrath in the Fourth Gospel, and it refers to the present experience of wrath. Of course, that will continue this entire life unless the unbeliever comes to faith. But whether eternal condemnation is the experience of wrath forever is a separate question. There is certainly nothing in John’s Gospel that says that. In my opinion, there is not a single reference to God’s wrath anywhere in the Bible that indicates it is eternal.
When people see references to God’s wrath in Scripture, it is important that they consider the context. Too many people assume that God’s wrath refers to eternal condemnation. It rarely—if ever—does. John 3:36 is an example where people often read into the wrath of God an eternal component that is not found in the text.