Speaking in tongues is NOT a gift

[Jim B]

Yes in His human nature He was the only perfect one. We sin because we are sinners and we will sin till the end.



Because if we don't have the spirit.... "Whosoever is not born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:9

Therefore, God in principle is saying, "You must be born again." But, alas! we can't make ourselves be born again! It has to be given to us for it is a gift.



Yes, Romans 7 is directed to all believers.


Actually, all sins are willful, "The wages of sin [singular] is death."

To God Be The Glory

No, all sins are not willful. We will continue to sin until we die, even if our intention is to not sin. 1 John 1:8-10, "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us."

 

[JunChosen]

What does this mean?

It is not kosher to answer a question with another question, but for me to respond, I need to ask a question "Which part of my comments did you not understand?"

 

[L.A.M.B.]

@Rich R ,

What causes you to think that you are the only one that knows anything about the Holy Spirit?
I want a direct answer from the word of God that you are the crowned expert.

You have been given multiple scriptures by multiple ppl disproving you claim. Yet you void every one of them.

First, let me say this no matter how much we talk about a subject, and there seem to be favorites among us, we will NEVER change another's mind on beliefs, that takes the Holy Spirit !

Also is it our command from God to be tearing down ANOTHER? Are we not to edify, encourage, share the load ,love and pray for one another. Do you pray for these you dispute against ?

WE ALL ARE REAL PEOPLE ON HERE!

 

[JunChosen]

No, all sins are not willful.

So you know better than God when He said "the wages of sin is death?" IOW, it only takes one sin that is NOT paid for and send that person to hell.

We will continue to sin until we die, even if our intention is to not sin.

So you believe in the sin of omission and commission? LOL

 

[Jim B]

It is not kosher to answer a question with another question, but for me to respond, I need to ask a question "Which part of my comments did you not understand?"

You wrote "You have a western mind and don't understand what they MEAN." And I asked "what does this mean?" Which part of my question did you not understand? What do you mean? Do you not answer questions? If so, why not?

 

[Jim B]

So you know better than God when He said "the wages of sin is death?" IOW, it only takes one sin that is NOT paid for and send that person to hell.

So you believe in the sin of omission and commission? LOL

Paul wrote "the wages of sin is death"; he is not God.

LOL? If you can't answer with a mature attitude I have no interest.

 

[Rich R]

My big concern is what you and Carl are teaching because your lack of understanding the writing of eastern apostles. You have a western mind and don't understand what they MEAN.

Well, all I understand is what they wrote. I assume they meant what they wrote. Do you think there is some hidden meaning in the scriptures? I know that's not uncommon, so I was just wondering.

Where did you get the idea about East vs. West? Was it because I've brought that up a few times now, or did you know it before that?

 

[Rich R]

@Rich R ,

What causes you to think that you are the only one that knows anything about the Holy Spirit?
I want a direct answer from the word of God that you are the crowned expert.

You have been given multiple scriptures by multiple ppl disproving you claim. Yet you void every one of them.

First, let me say this no matter how much we talk about a subject, and there seem to be favorites among us, we will NEVER change another's mind on beliefs, that takes the Holy Spirit!

I don't recall having said I'm the only one who understands 1 Cor 12:7-10. Lot's of people do.

Perhaps I did miss a verse I didn't answer, but it would not have been intentional. If you would be so kind as to point out which ones I didn't answer, I'll do my best to give you an answer.

Also is it our command from God to be tearing down ANOTHER? Are we not to edify, encourage, share the load ,love and pray for one another. Do you pray for these you dispute against ?

Yes, yes, and yes. How about you? I hate to say it, but your reply sounds a bit snarky. Sorry, but I'm not feeling the love.

WE ALL ARE REAL PEOPLE ON HERE!

I understand. That's why I haven't told anyone they will die in their sins, that they are false prophets. I haven't sarcastically accused anyone of thinking they are the crowned expert. I'm a real person too. It reminds me of something Jesus said:

Matt 7:2-3,

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?​

 

[L.A.M.B.]

I don't recall having said I'm the only one who understands 1 Cor 12:7-10. Lot's of people do.

Perhaps I did miss a verse I didn't answer, but it would not have been intentional. If you would be so kind as to point out which ones I didn't answer, I'll do my best to give you an answer.



Yes, yes, and yes. How about you? I hate to say it, but your reply sounds a bit snarky. Sorry, but I'm not feeling the love.


I understand. That's why I haven't told anyone they will die in their sins, that they are false prophets. I haven't sarcastically accused anyone of thinking they are the crowned expert. I'm a real person too. It reminds me of something Jesus said:

Matt 7:2-3,

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?​

It was just a wee bit snarky bc I don't see you trying to uplift or direct to any edifying of the brethern. The word states clearly o' how pleasant it is when brethern dwell together in unity.

I get pointing to God in his fullness. I get letting the Spirit be identified by his manifestations. I understand that the word is a sword but it is also a lamp.

The word states , EVERY GOOD & PERFECT ...GIFT...COMETH DOWN FROM ABOVE you don't seem to get the understanding. Ppl are called to teach just as they are called to preach and the Spirit distributes severally as he will in a person's walk.

Gifted teachers know how to get a point across,they make you dig deeper, stir a hunger in a heart, expand the person's search. Would you say you are doing this ?

If you want to call it judgment that's you, I call it discerning the spirit, the attitude, the love and gentleness to some that may be weak.
Boldness is not o' no you don't believe ,know, nor understand.

We should all withdraw from this thread and see exactly where you stand, son of Sceva.
Acts 19: 12-15 (in context.)
V.15. And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye ?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Well, all I understand is what they wrote. I assume they meant what they wrote. Do you think there is some hidden meaning in the scriptures? I know that's not uncommon, so I was just wondering.

Where did you get the idea about East vs. West? Was it because I've brought that up a few times now, or did you know it before that?

The apostles are from the East and are Hebrews. They write with a Semitic writing styles. One of these styles is contrasts. 1 John 3 goes back and forth between Jesus and the devil. So does chapter one in verses 5 through 10. Verses 5, 7 and 9 are LIGHT; 6, 8 and 10 are DARKNESS. With your western mindset, you and Carl only see what is written because of the word "we" and don't see the key word is "say." Verses 5 and 6 is unquestionably clear that the person walking in DARKNESS does NOT have the God of LIGHT in Him and thus not a Christian. But somehow you and Carl can't even see that. Read Romans 2. Paul talks about those who judge others by the law, and yet break the law themselves. Saying lies about themselves verses walking in the Spirit.

cc: @Jim B This is what I mean in answer to your response.

 

[JunChosen]

Paul wrote "the wages of sin is death"; he is not God.

So have I written the same and I'm not God, either!

LOL? If you can't answer with a mature attitude I have no interest

Who has what manner and attitude and no interest? I suggest you look in the mirror.

You wrote "You have a western mind and don't understand what they MEAN." And I asked "what does this mean?"

Truly, I wish, you would check your sources. I did NOT write the above! Caution, "look before you leap." I wonder if this is also how you mix the scriptures thereby come away with not knowing anything? Like reading the Bible as if its' an ordinary, instead of a spiritual book?

 

[Rich R]

The word states , EVERY GOOD & PERFECT ...GIFT...COMETH DOWN FROM ABOVE you don't seem to get the understanding.

I think this is the crux of the matter. Everything really comes down to whether I do understand about every good and perfect gift from above or I don't.

I'm confident I do have that understanding, but you seem to be of a different opinion on that. No problem there. In my life I've encountered other people who don't think like I think. But I'd be curious as to specifically what I said that leads you to think I don't understand about every good gift? In fact, what is it exactly I don't understand? I just can't recall writing anything that would have given that impression.

Perhaps if this misunderstanding were cleared up, we could be good brethren, lifting each other up. But I'm actually willing to do that either way. I think I will.

 

[Rich R]

The apostles are from the East and are Hebrews. They write with a Semitic writing styles. One of these styles is contrasts. 1 John 3 goes back and forth between Jesus and the devil. So does chapter one in verses 5 through 10. Verses 5, 7 and 9 are LIGHT; 6, 8 and 10 are DARKNESS. With your western mindset, you and Carl only see what is written because of the word "we" and don't see the key word is "say." Verses 5 and 6 is unquestionably clear that the person walking in DARKNESS does NOT have the God of LIGHT in Him and thus not a Christian. But somehow you and Carl can't even see that. Read Romans 2. Paul talks about those who judge others by the law, and yet break the law themselves. Saying lies about themselves verses walking in the Spirit.

cc: @Jim B This is what I mean in answer to your response.

OK. I get all of that. I've said many times that our spirit is perfect and can not sin. Never have I said otherwise.

I've also said that is only a part of our present reality. We have flesh, No good thing dwells in the flesh. We can not be made perfect in the flesh. The flesh is a sin nature and therefore it sins. All of that will be that way until Jesus comes and redeems our sinful flesh and give us new bodies which will be just like his.

Christians don't automatically walk in the light 100% of the time. Jesus did, but you don't, I don't, none of us do. Therefore we are perfectly subject to walking in darkness to the degree we don't follow God's will. And we all slip from time to time. I just can't wrap my brain around the idea that Christian are somehow immune to sin, that the actually think they can say, as Jesus said, "I always do my Father's will."

But I really have to question if all of that is actually your deepest, innermost feeling. Surely only someone who sinned would deserve a spanking, something you mentioned a while ago. I must have sinned in your mind for you to think I deserve punishment. Or is it because I'm not a true Christian in your mind? That would actually be more in line with your avowed belief about sinning.

In any case, our differences don't lay in understanding the perfection of God's new creation, His workmanship in us. I get that. I got that a long time ago. It only has to do with the nature of the flesh which we still very much have. I think it can sin and you don't. That's really what it comes down to.

Who told you about the radical difference between how the Ancient East and Modern West sees the word "we?" I'm a long time proponent of the value of knowing at least the rudiments of both Greek and Hebrew. A little Aramaic doesn't hurt. I've spent decades studying the cultural differences between the two. One of my favorite sayings I use frequently is, "The Bible wasn't written last year in New York of LA!" But I've never seen the concept of "we" as being so different between the two cultures, so I'd be curious to get more information on it. If you have any source material I'd love to look at it. Thanks in advance!

 

[L.A.M.B.]

I think this is the crux of the matter. Everything really comes down to whether I do understand about every good and perfect gift from above or I don't.

I'm confident I do have that understanding, but you seem to be of a different opinion on that. No problem there. In my life I've encountered other people who don't think like I think. But I'd be curious as to specifically what I said that leads you to think I don't understand about every good gift? In fact, what is it exactly I don't understand? I just can't recall writing anything that would have given that impression.

Perhaps if this misunderstanding were cleared up, we could be good brethren, lifting each other up. But I'm actually willing to do that either way. I think I will.

I am so sorry , Rich. I apologize and ask your forgiveness for I misunderstood exactly what you were saying. I was wrong as so many times we are when we are NOT thurough in reading what is actually said.

The title threw me off first then I read OP # 1, and I did not just commit a fauxpau but I've sinned against you and I'm sorry.

I thought you were speaking against the initial evidience and prophecy intended to be MANISFESTED in the church for the edifying of the saints by divers kinds of tongues. In thinking in misunderstanding I assumed you meant the gift of the Holy Ghost ..

Please forgive and pray for myself and others. I see so much of the arguing b4 I know it I'm like a hornet ready to also sting .

I'm going to step off here for a bit to bring my spirit & flesh under subjection to God's Spirit.

Thank you for your gracious control in not slapping me back again I apologize. Emotional female here.

 

[Rich R]

I am so sorry , Rich. I apologize and ask your forgiveness for I misunderstood exactly what you were saying. I was wrong as so many times we are when we are NOT thurough in reading what is actually said.

The title threw me off first then I read OP # 1, and I did not just commit a fauxpau but I've sinned against you and I'm sorry.

I thought you were speaking against the initial evidience and prophecy intended to be MANISFESTED in the church for the edifying of the saints by divers kinds of tongues. In thinking in misunderstanding I assumed you meant the gift of the Holy Ghost ..

Please forgive and pray for myself and others. I see so much of the arguing b4 I know it I'm like a hornet ready to also sting .

I'm going to step off here for a bit to bring my spirit & flesh under subjection to God's Spirit.

Thank you for your gracious control in not slapping me back again I apologize. Emotional female here.

Don't worry one bit about it. I totally understand. I've done the same thing myself. It's easy to get lost in the muddle of things around here sometimes.

I'm a huge proponent of tongues as well as all the other 8 manifestations. I was just trying to counter the doctrine that only some Christians have the "gift" of tongues whereas most don't. They don't realize that it is one of the 9 manifestations (1 Cor 10:7-10) of the gift, i.e., holy spirit, they already have. A manifestation and a gift are not the same thing. Of course not knowing that one has the ability to build themselves up much by speaking in tongues, they won't do it. I think tongues helps with the operation of the other manifestations which are really nothing more than what Jesus promised we would do.

John 14:12,

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
​

Anyway, thanks for your kind reply.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

OK. I get all of that. I've said many times that our spirit is perfect and can not sin. Never have I said otherwise.

I've also said that is only a part of our present reality. We have flesh, No good thing dwells in the flesh. We can not be made perfect in the flesh. The flesh is a sin nature and therefore it sins. All of that will be that way until Jesus comes and redeems our sinful flesh and give us new bodies which will be just like his.

Christians don't automatically walk in the light 100% of the time. Jesus did, but you don't, I don't, none of us do. Therefore we are perfectly subject to walking in darkness to the degree we don't follow God's will. And we all slip from time to time. I just can't wrap my brain around the idea that Christian are somehow immune to sin, that the actually think they can say, as Jesus said, "I always do my Father's will."

But I really have to question if all of that is actually your deepest, innermost feeling. Surely only someone who sinned would deserve a spanking, something you mentioned a while ago. I must have sinned in your mind for you to think I deserve punishment. Or is it because I'm not a true Christian in your mind? That would actually be more in line with your avowed belief about sinning.

In any case, our differences don't lay in understanding the perfection of God's new creation, His workmanship in us. I get that. I got that a long time ago. It only has to do with the nature of the flesh which we still very much have. I think it can sin and you don't. That's really what it comes down to.

Who told you about the radical difference between how the Ancient East and Modern West sees the word "we?" I'm a long time proponent of the value of knowing at least the rudiments of both Greek and Hebrew. A little Aramaic doesn't hurt. I've spent decades studying the cultural differences between the two. One of my favorite sayings I use frequently is, "The Bible wasn't written last year in New York of LA!" But I've never seen the concept of "we" as being so different between the two cultures, so I'd be curious to get more information on it. If you have any source material I'd love to look at it. Thanks in advance!

Okay so tell me now what your belief is of 1 John 1:6, 8 and 10

 

[JunChosen]

@Rich R,

You can fool people some of the time, but you can't fool people all of the time. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Forgive me for laughing but I just remembered Psalms 37:13.
Today in Christendom, it is all about TOLERANCE!
No longer do "Christians?" REBUKE those who teach heresy. Believers ought to see / know if someone is of Christ by his fruit.
Right of the bat, those who are Unitarians that teach, Jesus is NOT God, will die in their sins. John 8:24.
This is the belief of the writer of this OP! therefore, many if not all of his doctrines, will be based on the wrong premise that Jesus is NOT God!
As I've already asserted, today in Christendom is about tolerance and hardly any rebuke coming from the children of God, but I will.
Consider the scriptures below:
"Take heed to yourselves: if brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him." Luke 17:3.
"This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith." Titus 1:13.
"These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority, Let no man despise thee." Titus 2:15.
"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten be zealous therefore, and repent." Revelation 3:19.
"The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and REBUKE, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thy perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, WHEREBY THOU HAST FORSAKEN ME. Deuteronomy 28:20.

There many more such like scriptures bu the above should suffice. I'm sure you got the gist of what I'm trying to convey.

 

[Rich R]

Okay so tell me now what your belief is of 1 John 1:6, 8 and 10

I believe exactly what they say. But you probably want to know about who the "we" is. Well the "we" is John and the people to whom he wrote. John was certainly born again when he wrote. I just read verses 6, 8, and 10 with that in mind.

Have you considered the difference between birth and behavior, your walk? Being born does not guarantee perfect behavior in life. That's true with your earthly birth and it's equally true in your second birth.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I believe exactly what they say. But you probably want to know about who the "we" is. Well the "we" is John and the people to whom he wrote. John was certainly born again when he wrote. I just read verses 6, 8, and 10 with that in mind.

Have you considered the difference between birth and behavior, your walk? Being born does not guarantee perfect behavior in life. That's true with your earthly birth and it's equally true in your second birth.

That's what I was afraid of. When you become born again you will know the difference. It is a supernatural experience that unmistakably removes your sin nature. Until then you will believe you are a sinner because you will be. When you're not, you'll know it, and it won't be a lie, because Jesus says so.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

There are many blessings, promises, gifts ,& manifestations of God in his word. Some he offers to ppl bc he knows the simplicity of heart they believe with and the trust they follow him with.

Everybody does not have from him bc they have not made the commitment to be of a contrite heart and a broken spirit. Ppl hold tight to what they are comfortable with even RESISTING GOD to obedience.

If you lack wisdom, ask God [ Ja.1:3-6 ], ask and God will give it [ Mt.7:5-8 ] if anything you desire is lacking in your life,all that we must do in believing is ask,seek & knock. God does not withhold HIS good from HIS PPL.