Carl Emerson
Well-Known Member
Paul himself was a Pharisee - I am sure folks prayed for him and look what happened.
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Speaking in tongues is NOT a gift
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Paul himself was a Pharisee - I am sure folks prayed for him and look what happened.
Jim B
Well-Known Member
I was an atheist for years before Christ came to me!
Would you mind terribly going over every verse in 1 John 1 and tell me who each "we" refers to and why. For example, I don't think the "we" in verse 1 can possibly mean all human beings. It looks like it means the folks who personally witnessed the events of Jesus' life, i.e., the Apostles. I would also be interested as to who you the think the "you" refers to in verse 5 and why. I know it's a lot of work, but I think as a teacher you've probably done much more.
No hurry.One other thing I'd be curious to get your view on is about the word "children" in 2:1. I think you are saying those are brand new Christians and that this verse doesn't apply to older ones. How many years in Christ does one need be before not being a child? It sure seems to say that at least children (new Christians?) can in fact sin, so I think it would be important to know when the Christian becomes immune to sin.
Actually, yet another thing I'd be curious about (hope I'm not getting out of hand). Where do you see anything about some Christians needing to be tested to see if they really belong to Christ and what that test might involve.
Again, I know that's a lot to cover, so take your time. If I really love you, I ought to be patient.
Perhaps Paul wasn't in the group of Pharisees Jesus was talking to that day? Actually he could not have been there that day, since as you say, he did get born again by God's incorruptible seed. There is nothing in scripture to indicate all Pharisees are children of the devil. Paul must have been one of them.
One thing is certain, nobody can have the seed of two different fathers. Please don't mix up biological fathers with those who may adopt a child. An adopted child still has the seed of his biological father. That doesn't change. Genesis 1 defines seed pretty clearly.
Otherwise, what do you take to be the sin of someone else that we shouldn't pray for?
Jim B
Well-Known Member
This is self-contradictory. You say that "seed is seed", then also say "Peter said we are born again, not of corruptible seed (like your earth father's seed, hence you will die), but of incorruptible seed", so obviously seed is not seed. Believers are "born again" with incorruptible seed.
I did understand your reference to fruit of the spirit, but I fail to see anything that makes a distinction between immature and mature fruit there. I can certainly see the difference between a Christian being immature or mature, but I was wondering about the immature fruit you mentioned. All I see is fruit, nothing about immature or mature fruit.
I didn't say that there is no use in praying for anyone who hasn't come to Jesus. Maybe you are just agreeing with that? I'm not sure.
I was quite specific as to for who prayers would do no good, namely those born of the devil's seed as were the Pharisees who Jesus said were of their father the devil. I went into detail on what a father is. Seriously, read it again. I think I was pretty clear.
So the seed is not really incorruptible? It can corrupt to the degree that the child goes all the way to perdition? Wouldn't that suggest that Paul lied to Timothy and the rest of us? Are you suggesting that our actions can in fact corrupt it?
Plus, as you seem to say, a Christian can't sin. So how can a Christian sin enough to go all the way back to perdition? I mean, can a Christian sin or not? It can't be both ways.
The Pharisees who Jesus said were of their father the devil could have in no wise ever become a Christian. Seed is the key. If they were children of the devil, they had the devil's seed and that's that. End of the story for them, hence no need to pray the will become God's child. Nobody can trade the seed they have from their father for some other seed. Again, Gen 1 is key to understand seed. If I recall, the word "seed" is used at least 8 times in that chapter and it's meaning is pretty much nailed down. It's very relevant to the subject.
Atheists aren't necessarily born of the devil's seed. In fact, most probably are not, so it's no mystery that they could repent and get seed from God.
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OK. A bit nit-picky, but valid as fart as it goes.
Yes, there is seed and there is incorruptible seed. In that regard you are in complete agreement with 1 Peter 1:23, as well as myself. I mean, I'm the one who brought it up in the first place, so clearly I acknowledge it. I believe I also pointed out that Christians are born again of incorruptible seed. Paul was pretty clear on that. It'd be hard to screw that one up!
Anyway, I was thinking of seed as defined in Genesis 1. That's specifically what I meant by saying seed is seed and in that context I stand by my statement. Context is king when it comes to effective communication. We must read things in context.
In any case, how does that change the essence of what I wrote about the Pharisees being born again of the devil's seed? Do you have an explanation of who are those for whom prayer is useless?
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Your reply seems as though you are prejudiced against me. You seem to stick with one statement while ignoring the many times I self corrected that statement. But I suppose it best that I correct it in the OP. I'll do it right now.
I'll let the scriptures be my last response.
1Cor 4:3-5,
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
Carl Emerson
Well-Known Member
Rich - just a general comment...
I don't believe truth always comes from analysing text and words.
His Spirit leads us into all truth so the road to truth is a relationship journey.
I think that the elevation of the Berean mentality is over blown and in a lot of cases leads to NT Phariseeism.
I also feel there is a lot of confusion over the Nature of Scripture which is not a code to be deciphered but a treasure to be received.
Carl Emerson
Well-Known Member
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Would you mind terribly going over every verse in 1 John 1 and tell me who each "we" refers to and why. For example, I don't think the "we" in verse 1 can possibly mean all human beings. It looks like it means the folks who personally witnessed the events of Jesus' life, i.e., the Apostles. I would also be interested as to who you the think the "you" refers to in verse 5 and why. I know it's a lot of work, but I think as a teacher you've probably done much more.
One other thing I'd be curious to get your view on is about the word "children" in 2:1. I think you are saying those are brand new Christians and that this verse doesn't apply to older ones. How many years in Christ does one need be before not being a child? It sure seems to say that at least children (new Christians?) can in fact sin, so I think it would be important to know when the Christian becomes immune to sin.
Actually, yet another thing I'd be curious about (hope I'm not getting out of hand). Where do you see anything about some Christians needing to be tested to see if they really belong to Christ and what that test might involve.
Again, I know that's a lot to cover, so take your time. If I really love you, I ought to be patient.
The point is not everyone going to church is saved. We are to test ourselves. The main test is verses 5-10, and also in chapter 2.
5. God is LIGHT
6. He who SAYS he has a relationship with God, but walks in DARKNESS...
7. He who WALKS in the LIGHT, sins forgiven
8. He who SAYS he doesn't sin
9. the verse those who walk in darkness need to actually be free from sin.
10. He who SAYS they have never sinned.
Chapter 2
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. Children are baby Christians, with immature fruit. (The importance of taking this test. This is the purpose of the letter)
And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. This verse is to those fake Christians reading this but are still in darkness. Jesus is the Advocate for the sinners of the whole world. So those "we" that walk in darkness need to become born again and filled with the Holy Spirit so they no longer sin. Then we are one with God and partake of the divine nature that cannot commit mortal sins.
The Test of Knowing Him (The NKJV that I am copying actually has that heading. Again, "SAYS" is the key word to the sinner, )
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
7 Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning. 8 Again, a new commandment I write to you, which thing is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.
9 He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. 10 He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. 11 But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
John is not the only apostle giving warnings to baby Christians. Both Peter and Paul do too.
I think I covered all your questions. Wasn't hard - I know this stuff...LOL I have to teach it all the time on these forums, and even to the pastors I teach.
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I see now. It all makes sense. But how do you know that everything I say is not true? What's the standard for determining truth? Maybe I'm part of your relationship journey and you should give heed to what I say. How would you know? It's obvious you are a seeker of the truth. In light of your belief, I think these are important questions. Yes, no?
What about all the "we" in 1 John?
I still don't see where there is a distinction between immature and mature fruit. If that is true, then all Christians would at some point have been liars and walk in darkness until they grew up. That makes no sense. Where the Apostles liars and walking in darkness on Pentecost? They certainly were babies with immature fruit at that point. Was Cornelius and his household all liars and walked in darkness the day got born again? If what you say is true, we'd have to conclude just that.
Carl Emerson just told me that there is more truth than what's in the Bible. Are you of the same persuasion? Just wondering.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Curious Carl, What do you think 1 John 1:8 means without analyzing the context?
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1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
"we" is everyone going to John's church in Ephesus. Not all are saved. That goes for every church in the world, unfortunately. Paul said to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Why fear, if it is so easy?
Behold
Well-Known Member
Have you ever been to Church?
Let me show you something that preachers, teachers, apostles, ministers, bishops, will do.
Its this.
When they are sharing the gospel......preaching Christ Crucified, they will many times use the term "we", when talking to the unbelievers.
Now, its important that students of the word understand that, first and foremost, the CLARION Call of the Ministry = is to preach to the lost.
Pastor's are a mild exception, as they are to "shepherd" their flock.
But regarding an apostle, or a evangelist....or similar, the 1st call is to lead people to Christ., and when i do that, or another minister does that, or when Paul or Peter or Jude or James, do this......you will find us saying "we"< to a person or a group who are unbelievers, yet we are talking about them and not about ourselves.
John does this in 1 Jn 1:9.......Paul does this in Hebrews 10:26 and in Acts 28.
John and Paul do not have sin.
They have "Christ's righteousness", always, and so if they say, "if we say we have no sin", they know that Jesus has theirs, but the unlearned bible reader, who has no experience with the word, does not understand this, as 99% of the time they have no understanding of the Gospel of the Grace of God, and do not understand what it means to have been "made righteous" or to have become a 'New Creation" in Christ"....AS "The righteousness of God in Christ".
It seems to be a IQ test for a newbie believer, to try understand that the Apostle's sometimes PREACHED TO THE LOST< in their Epistles.
Yes they did., and they would sometimes say ="WE" when addressing the unbelievers, yet the Apostles are not unbelievers and they do not have sin.
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D3v0t3d2G0d
New Member
1 Corinthians 12:10...v7-13
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretations of tongues:
1 Corinthians 13
Talks about us having all the gifts of God, of being eloquent in speech, having knowledge, faith,& understanding,giving in all manner to the needy & poor, even to giving of yourself to be martyred, if we have not love it PROFITS US NOTHING !
All good and perfect gifts come DOWN from the Father from above. James 1:15-18.
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretations of tongues:
1 Corinthians 13
Talks about us having all the gifts of God, of being eloquent in speech, having knowledge, faith,& understanding,giving in all manner to the needy & poor, even to giving of yourself to be martyred, if we have not love it PROFITS US NOTHING !
All good and perfect gifts come DOWN from the Father from above. James 1:15-18.
So every "we" in 1 John refers to unbelievers? That doesn't sound right. Besides, I don't take any church official as the standard of truth.
Do you really think that on Pentecost John understood in one fell swoop everything it means to be a Christian, the new creation, their righteousness in God in Christ, etc? Ditto with Paul on the road to Damascus? What about Romans 7? Paul was talking in the present tense when he said he sees a war in his members. He was speaking in the present tense when he said his flesh serves the law of sin. You honestly believe you are now pure spirit, your flesh somehow vanished or whatever? Keep in mind that Paul said more than once that there is no good thing in the flesh.
I just can't wrap my head around the idea that somehow Christians automatically walk in perfect harmony with God's will, that they never sin by going against it. I don't care if they've been a Christian for 100 years. Someone intimated that Christians never lie or cheat. Really? That's a lie right there and it comes from the pit of hell!
This whole idea that Christians can't sin is a poison apparently infecting the church more than I ever knew. Now I've met two who say that. Is it gaining traction in Christendom? The devil must be tickled to death about that. What a trick! This is private interpretation on steroids!
Sorry to say all of that, but it's the truth and it'd serve you well to reconsider your position. As it is now, you apparently feel no need to confess your sins as per 1 John 1:9. Again, I'm very sorry to say that if that is the case then according to 1 John 1:10 you are a liar and his word is not in you. Not saying you're not born again (I thank God for that), but you very far from God's word and will for you.
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Here's 1 Cor 12:7 in KJV:
1 Cor 12:7,
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
That's an important distinction. The things listed in then next 3 verses are manifestations. The gift it holy spirit, but being spirit we can't detect it by our 5 sense. Hence God was genius enough to give us nine different ways to manifest that spirit into the sense world. I think you would agree that we need all of those manifestations to be effective ministers to others in need.
Behold
Well-Known Member
I didnt ask you if you read denominational theology.
I asked you if you've ever been to chruch.
This question is too difficult for you?
Now....Read more carefully.
I said that Apostles, and similar ministers, use "we", when they preach to unbelievers, in their Epistles.
This is not difficult to understand.
Then i gave you a few examples that you didnt take time to examine.
And one more time.. .All believers have become the righteousness of Christ, "made righteous".
Jesus has their sin, and they, the believers, born again, have BECOME= "the righteousness of God in Christ".
Let me show you one more....
Every believer, born again has become the "temple of the Holy Spirit".
Now, this means that God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit, live in the born again, in Spiritual union.
Does God live where sin is found?
If you think He does then you are a very long distance away from understanding what it means to be born again, as a "new Creation in Christ".
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