Steven Spielberg’s new movie Disclosure Day

[bdavidc]

The thread has wandered quite a distance from the original point, so I want to bring it back.

The purpose of the OP was not to establish whether UFOs are angels, demons, extraterrestrials, secret technology, or something else. Scripture does not tell us what every unidentified object is, so we should not claim certainty where God has not spoken.

The point was that the world is fascinated with receiving some great disclosure from beyond mankind while refusing the disclosure God has already given in Jesus Christ. “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son” (Hebrews 1:1–2).

Whatever may or may not appear in the sky, no sign, being, government announcement, angel, or supposed alien has authority to contradict God’s Word or preach another gospel. “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed” (Galatians 1:8).

The real issue is not whether angels need spacecraft, how they travel, or how future deception may look. The real issue is whether people will hear the Son whom God has already sent. “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him” (Matthew 17:5).

 

[ScottA]

Hebrews 13:8 does not mean that God continues giving new revelation in the same way He did through the prophets and apostles. “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever” means His person, character, authority, and promises do not change. It does not mean every method God used at one time must continue forever.

I see I am going to need to take things one point at a time.

You saying yes, but no, is not the measure of God and Christ. Did you hear yourself doing that? You said 'the same" does not mean "the same."

Jesus is the Beginning and the End, who was and is and is to come. Which is true from the beginning to the end. You don't have to believe it, you can put your own limits on what you believe--but that in no way changes that God never changes.

“For I am the Lord, I do not change" Malachi 3:6​

 

[bdavidc]

I see I am going to need to take things one point at a time.

You saying yes, but no, is not the measure of God and Christ. Did you hear yourself doing that? You said 'the same" does not mean "the same."

Jesus is the Beginning and the End, who was and is and is to come. Which is true from the beginning to the end. You don't have to believe it, you can put your own limits on what you believe--but that in no way changes that God never changes.

“For I am the Lord, I do not change" Malachi 3:6​

I did not say “the same” does not mean “the same.” I said Christ’s unchanging nature does not mean God must keep using every method He has ever used. That is a distinction Scripture itself makes.

Jesus Christ is eternally the same, but He is not continually being born in Bethlehem, dying on the cross, or rising from the dead. Those were unique acts in God’s unchanging plan. In the same way, God once spoke through prophets, but Hebrews says, “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son” (Hebrews 1:1–2).

God does not change, yet Scripture says, “the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law” (Hebrews 7:12), and the first covenant was made old by the establishment of the new covenant (Hebrews 8:13). Christ also “taketh away the first, that he may establish the second” (Hebrews 10:9).

Malachi 3:6 teaches that God’s character and covenant faithfulness do not change. It does not teach that prophets, sacrifices, priesthoods, covenants, and apostolic revelation must continue forever. You are taking a true statement about God’s nature and forcing it to say something the verse never says.

 

[ScottA]

Hebrews 1:1–2 makes a clear distinction: “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son.” Christ is God’s complete and climactic revelation. The apostles then bore authoritative witness to Him by the Holy Ghost, and that testimony has been preserved for us in Scripture.

Christ is certainly still with His people and working among us. He said, “Lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world” (Matthew 28:20). But He works through His Spirit according to His written Word, not by giving people new doctrines, new Scripture, or private revelations that must be accepted as God speaking.

Did you think I am referring to "new new doctrines, new scripture, or private revelations? I am not. But rather as it is written some things written were not to be written or revealed until the time of the end, when the seventh angel is about to sound. How is that you thought those things would be fulfilled--by some "new" method, or by God's established method--or not at all?

 

[ScottA]

The foundation has already been laid: “Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone” (Ephesians 2:20). A foundation is laid once, not continuously. Jude likewise speaks of “the faith which was once delivered unto the saints” (Jude 3).

A "foundation" was not all that was foretold to be built. I ones faith does not include the "finish", it is such a one who is "Ye of little faith."

 

[ScottA]

Christ has not changed, but that does not mean revelation has not reached its completion. The unchanging Christ still speaks through the Word He has already given. The real question is not whether Christ is working today, but whether what someone claims He is saying can be found and proven from Scripture.

Indeed "Christ still speaks through the Word He has already given", for there are yet babes born every day. But it is written also that beyond what has been written on parchment in times past, those things unwritten and sealed would be written and unsealed. Why then do you choose only part and not include all that is written "and proven from scripture?"

And why now should you continue to do so and reveal yourself falling short, when there is still time?

 

[ScottA]

I did not say “the same” does not mean “the same.” I said Christ’s unchanging nature does not mean God must keep using every method He has ever used. That is a distinction Scripture itself makes.

I wasn't quoting you, I was quoting me, and you contradicting your self to say in effect, yes but no. There is a saying for that...speaking out of both sides of your mouth. But that doesn't work with God.

 

[ScottA]

Jesus Christ is eternally the same, but He is not continually being born in Bethlehem, dying on the cross, or rising from the dead. Those were unique acts in God’s unchanging plan. In the same way, God once spoke through prophets, but Hebrews says, “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son” (Hebrews 1:1–2).

Your take on that is not all that the scriptures say. But I am not going to engage you in scripture tit-for-tat forever either, some of what I have been saying was a onetime act, and some is forever also.

 

[ScottA]

God does not change, yet Scripture says, “the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law” (Hebrews 7:12), and the first covenant was made old by the establishment of the new covenant (Hebrews 8:13). Christ also “taketh away the first, that he may establish the second” (Hebrews 10:9).

So what? What does that have to do with Jesus Himself continuing to send "some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers", etc.?

 

[ScottA]

Malachi 3:6 teaches that God’s character and covenant faithfulness do not change. It does not teach that prophets, sacrifices, priesthoods, covenants, and apostolic revelation must continue forever. You are taking a true statement about God’s nature and forcing it to say something the verse never says.

On the contrary, you are taking a very simple truth about God and putting your own limits on it to suit your own liking.

 

[bdavidc]

On the contrary, you are taking a very simple truth about God and putting your own limits on it to suit your own liking.

No, I am not putting limits on God. I am letting Scripture explain what “I change not” means in Malachi 3:6.

God does not change in His nature, character, or faithfulness. But Scripture plainly shows that His covenant arrangements have changed. Hebrews 7:12 says, “For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.” Hebrews 8:13 says the first covenant was made old and was ready to vanish away. Hebrews 10:12 says Christ offered one sacrifice for sins forever.

So God has not changed, but the priesthood, sacrifices, and covenant administration did. That is not my opinion or something I invented to suit myself. That is what Scripture says.

 

[bdavidc]

So what? What does that have to do with Jesus Himself continuing to send "some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers", etc.?

It has everything to do with your use of Malachi 3:6. You argued that because God does not change, apostles and prophets must continue. Hebrews proves that God can remain unchanged while changing how He works under a covenant.

Ephesians 4 does not say every office continues forever. Paul says the church is “built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets” (Ephesians 2:20). A foundation is laid once, not repeatedly. Through them, the mystery of Christ was revealed “by the Spirit” (Ephesians 3:5).

Evangelists, pastors, and teachers continue building upon that foundation. But you cannot use “I change not” to prove a permanent line of apostles and prophets when Scripture identifies them with the church’s foundation. The question is not whether Christ gave them. He did. The question is whether Scripture says He continues replacing them, and it does not.

 

[bdavidc]

Your take on that is not all that the scriptures say. But I am not going to engage you in scripture tit-for-tat forever either, some of what I have been saying was a onetime act, and some is forever also.

That is the very distinction I have been making. Some acts were once for all, while others continue. The issue is not whether anything continues forever. The issue is whether Scripture says apostles and prophets continue as offices in every generation.

You keep asserting that they do, but you have not shown a passage that says the church must keep replacing apostles and prophets. Ephesians says they are part of the foundation, while Scripture gives continuing qualifications and instructions for pastors and elders.

Calling this “tit-for-tat” does not answer the point. Show from Scripture that apostles and prophets are to be continually replaced. Ephesians 4 says Christ gave them. It does not say the church must keep appointing new ones forever.

 

[bdavidc]

Did you think I am referring to "new new doctrines, new scripture, or private revelations? I am not. But rather as it is written some things written were not to be written or revealed until the time of the end, when the seventh angel is about to sound. How is that you thought those things would be fulfilled--by some "new" method, or by God's established method--or not at all?

You are still assuming what you need to prove. Daniel was told to seal the written prophecy “even to the time of the end” (Daniel 12:4). That means its meaning and fulfillment would become clearer as the appointed time approached. It does not say God would restore a continuing office of apostles and prophets to reveal new information.

Revelation 10:4 is even clearer. John was told, “Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.” Since God deliberately withheld those words, nobody today can claim authority to reveal them. Revelation 10:7 says the mystery of God will be finished when the seventh angel sounds. It does not say a modern prophet will disclose hidden doctrine beforehand.

Prophecy being fulfilled or better understood is not the same thing as receiving new revelation from God. The written Word is already there. Show the passage that says end-time apostles or prophets will be appointed to reveal what Scripture withheld. You have not done that.

 

[bdavidc]

A "foundation" was not all that was foretold to be built. I ones faith does not include the "finish", it is such a one who is "Ye of little faith."

No one said the foundation is the whole building. The point is that the rest of the building is built on that foundation, not by laying new foundations in every generation.

Paul says the church is “built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets” and then “groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord” (Ephesians 2:20–21). First Corinthians 3:11 says, “Other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”

The building continues. The foundation does not. Calling that “little faith” does not answer the text. Show where Scripture says new apostles and prophets must arise to finish what the original foundation began. You still have not done that.

 

[bdavidc]

Indeed "Christ still speaks through the Word He has already given", for there are yet babes born every day. But it is written also that beyond what has been written on parchment in times past, those things unwritten and sealed would be written and unsealed. Why then do you choose only part and not include all that is written "and proven from scripture?"

And why now should you continue to do so and reveal yourself falling short, when there is still time?

You keep asserting that unwritten and sealed things would later be written, but you still have not shown a verse that says that.

Daniel 12:4 says the prophecy was sealed until the time of the end. It does not say new Scripture would be produced. Revelation 10:4 says John was told, “Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.” Nothing in the passage says someone later would be authorized to reveal them.

You are building your argument on a claim the text never makes. Telling me I am “falling short” is not proof. Show the verse that says those unwritten things would later be written and revealed, or admit that you are adding that conclusion yourself.

 

[ScottA]

You keep asserting that they do, but you have not shown a passage that says the church must keep replacing apostles and prophets.

See what you just did? You revealed that you believe it is "the church" who appoints "apostles and prophets."

No wonder you take the position you have.

 

[bdavidc]

I wasn't quoting you, I was quoting me, and you contradicting your self to say in effect, yes but no. There is a saying for that...speaking out of both sides of your mouth. But that doesn't work with God.

You keep claiming that the “unwritten and sealed” things would later be written and revealed, but you have not produced a single verse that says so.

Revelation 10:2 describes the little book as already open. Revelation 10:4 says John was commanded, “Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.” The passage gives no promise that those words would later be written by someone else. You are adding that conclusion to the text.

Daniel 12 tells Daniel to seal the book he had already written until the time of the end. It does not say another prophet would later write what John was commanded not to write. These are separate passages, and you cannot combine them to create a promise neither passage contains.

You accused me of contradicting myself by saying God does not change while some of His methods and covenant arrangements do. Yet you admitted that some things were one-time acts while others continue. That was my distinction from the beginning. Hebrews 10:10 says Christ was sacrificed “once for all,” and Hebrews 7:12 says, “the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.” God remains unchanged even though particular acts and arrangements change.

The church continues to grow upon the foundation already laid, “the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone” (Ephesians 2:20). Nothing in that verse, Daniel 12, or Revelation 10 says later prophets would be appointed to reveal the seven thunders.

Remarks about “little faith” and “falling short” do not answer the text. Show the verse that says the sealed words would later be written and revealed. Until you do, the claim is not coming from Scripture. You are adding it to Scripture.

 

[bdavidc]

See what you just did? You revealed that you believe it is "the church" who appoints "apostles and prophets."

No wonder you take the position you have.

No, that is not what I said. You grabbed one word and built a straw man because you still cannot answer the actual point.

Scripture says apostles were appointed by Jesus Christ, not by churches. Paul said he was “an apostle, not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ” (Galatians 1:1). My question was whether Scripture teaches that Christ continues appointing new apostles and prophets in every generation after the foundation was laid.

Ephesians 2:20 calls the apostles and prophets the foundation of the church. You have not shown one passage saying Christ continues adding new men to that foundation or appointing people to reveal what John was commanded not to write.

Stop dodging the question by deliberately misrepresenting my words. Show the Scripture that teaches continuing appointments of apostles and prophets. That is the issue.

---

This thread was started to discuss Disclosure Day, mankind’s fascination with hidden truth, the danger of deception, and the truth God has already revealed through Jesus Christ. It was not started as a debate over continuing apostles and prophets, the seven thunders, sealed revelation, or who appoints church offices.

You raised an objection to one statement in my post, and I answered it repeatedly. That side argument has now completely buried the point of the OP. Your latest reply is another attempt to turn a wording choice into a new argument instead of addressing the original subject.

If you want to continue debating apostles, prophets, Revelation 10, or how those offices are appointed, start a separate thread and tag me. I am not continuing that debate here. Please keep any further replies in this thread connected to Disclosure Day and the biblical warning about deception.