Stumbling Block verses

[bbyrd009]

This is difficult for me to grasp. Bear with me. The shedding of blood is to...make atonement for sin and to cleanse.

under the law, almost everything requires blood eh

 

[Episkopos]

Cain kills Abel ok, dont get sideways here imo

heck, i dont even know what Propitiated means yet bro

If a person gets murdered on the street, the common man will not feel justified by the killing. Only the killer will justify the death of the victim. That's why he killed him. He felt justified to do so.

God appeased the god of this world through the death of Jesus. But with God things are never as they seem.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

and not a drop of blood was drank that day either huh

No, I don't think the cup had real blood in it, but He meant something of a...parable with the bread and wine there. Using temporal things to...describe what He was about to do and who He was and why He came..

 

[Episkopos]

oh, i thought you just said God did?

There's a lot of that thing going around these days...I mean getting somebody wrong, even exactly backwards!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

under the law, almost everything requires blood eh

Yes. And the law speaks of Jesus.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Interesting thread. Hopefully, any thread such as this would explicitly recognize that it is the Holy Spirit who gives us understanding of truth and guides us into all truth. Also, I believe it's important to recognize that aspects of the truth can defy human logic. This especially applies to dichotomies (seeming contradictions) in the Bible. Of course, truth never contradicts itself, so that's why I stressed "seeming" contradictions.

I keep contradictions on a shelf to come back to later when I sense the Spirit wants to unravel the contradiction. I had one contradiction on the shelf for 30 years! But finally it was solved, and the truth behind it was mind blowing!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I guess I view it as His blood to buy us back to God, to give us a way to God. But it doesn't just stop there. It seems to me that a lot of people just see it as the end, when it is a beginning.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

So...His shedding of blood was for a purpose. But that purpose was to make an end of transgression, not so that transgression would continue.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

"Justified by His blood"....What does this mean?

Or this....


Romans 3:25
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

I know there are 2 verses here...and most will think that they understand the idea being presented.....a slam dunk, so to speak. But the verses only make sense to us when we add in our own understanding. We want to add in the word "shed"...as in "shed blood."

So we want to believe that we are justified by believing in the shed blood of Jesus. And without further thought...in this very religious way of thinking...we construct a way to justify ourselves by seeking to take advantage of this seeming offer from God to just receive that shed blood as being for ourselves to use as we want. To exploit the tragedy of Christ having to suffer for our sins. Such a conflict of interest...that they who put Jesus to death would rejoice in that death as that being what justifies them in righteousness!? Are we justified from sin by committing the greatest sin of all?

There is a carnal logic to this. But right here is a possibility of a deviation that is so great that is turns the cornerstone into a stumbling block. IOW...it's a trap.

Are we justified through death and violence? If death justified us...and specifically the death of Jesus, then those Roman soldiers who crucified Him are the priests of a new religion based on violence AGAINST righteousness. And this is precisely what has happened. A new level of violence against righteousness and truth. How? By the carnal mind taking hold of truth and turning it into a lie.

All one has to do is to add a comma between "through faith, in His blood, to make this not about what carnal men can put together for themselves...but what the power of God can do. This isn't about having faith in Someone's shed blood...by putting a religious feeling or twist to this with the imagination. No, everyone at that time watching the crucifixion would have put their beliefs into seeing that the blood that was shed was indeed that of Jesus. The irony is that they who destroy righteousness for the sake of Jesus' shed blood...believe that Jesus was indeed the personification of all righteousness. It's all about who owns that shed blood. Is it us or God? Can we claim the blood of another for ourselves?

Or....is blood about LIFE not death. Does the "shed" blood of Jesus justify us....or rather does the life in the blood (unshed) justify us?

So let's look at what else the bible has to say about justification in regards to Jesus, His work, His life and our faith.

Rom. 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

So which is it? Was it the shed blood of Jesus that justifies us...or the new flow of blood in resurrection life that justifies us....as we tap into this new life?

Good things to think about it and I understand what you are saying and it makes sense. The fact is, if Jesus had not risen from the dead, His death would not have meant anything. The resurrection is the sign the sacrifice was accepted. The resurrection is what gives us the power to walk in newness of LIFE.

 

[CharismaticLady]

and God retains the initiative to apply that sacrifice on whomever He wishes.

I liked your post, except for this sentence. That does not sound like "whosoever believes." God is sovereign, but He has made us in His likeness and given us dominion over the animals; but I believe we are sovereign over our own choices too. Otherwise, we are just puppets.

 

[CharismaticLady]

So...His shedding of blood was for a purpose. But that purpose was to make an end of transgression, not so that transgression would continue.

Exactly!!!

 

[CharismaticLady]

I'm reminded of a verse that says, the life is in the blood. Ill go look for it.

First found in Genesis 9.

 

[Episkopos]

I liked your post, except for this sentence. That does not sound like "whosoever believes." God is sovereign, but He has made us in His likeness and given us dominion over the animals; but I believe we are sovereign over our own choices too. Otherwise, we are just puppets.

AHA! Salvation is not on whoever believes they are saved. There is a judgment day coming where even they who say Lord Lord are in danger of rejection.

So then if salvation is arbitrarily on whoever believes they are saved by their beliefs about Jesus...then we have the confusion and lack of power truth and reality we see today.

God will decide who is ultimately saved...and to what KIND of place they are saved to.

The "whoever" means we ALL have the same access to the promises of God...not just the Jews.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

So Epi is right. A religion has been built around death and treating His blood as if it were a common thing, to be used for the ends that someone likes (to cover sin), just as common goat blood did, rather than to give life...

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I liked your post, except for this sentence. That does not sound like "whosoever believes." God is sovereign, but He has made us in His likeness and given us dominion over the animals; but I believe we are sovereign over our own choices too. Otherwise, we are just puppets.

Daniel 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

The path of Nebuchadnezzar...until he come in to agreement with what? (Daniel 4:25), (Daniel 4:32-34)And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will. [33] The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws. [34] And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

Does God change?

 

[CharismaticLady]

Its lev 17:10-11

It's God saying He will turn His face from anyone who drinks blood because the life is in the blood.

I guess it was hard for them to drink from that cup Jesus passed around when He said, drink this, its my blood...surely they didn't understand...but they drank it anyway.

Il

And instead of interpreting it as dying to self as a means of overcoming sin, it is walking in the Spirit in newness of life.

1 Corinthians 15:
29 Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead? 30 And why do we stand in jeopardy every hour? 31 I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If, in the manner of men, I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantage is it to me? If the dead do not rise, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!”

33 Do not be deceived: “Evil company corrupts good habits.” 34 Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

 

[CharismaticLady]

AHA! Salvation is not on whoever believes they are saved. There is a judgment day coming where even they who say Lord Lord are in danger of rejection.

So then if salvation is arbitrarily on whoever believes they are saved by their beliefs about Jesus...then we have the confusion and lack of power truth and reality we see today.

God will decide who is ultimately saved...and to what KIND of place they are saved to.

The "whoever" means we ALL have the same access to the promises of God...not just the Jews.

Exactly! The opposite of believe is disobedience. Disobedience is not life, it is death, for the wages of sin is death. That verse, again, is one of those verses you are talking about that those with itching ears find teachers to justify their weaknesses, rather than truly repenting and being filled with the power of His Spirit.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And instead of interpreting it as dying to self as a means of overcoming sin, it is walking in the Spirit in newness of life.

A dying to self must occur because if I'm filled with pride of this life that isn't really life, but rather death, I will not put my hand to the plow and seek the life that is in Him.

 

[CharismaticLady]

The truth is that when WE take Jesus' shed blood for ourselves...we are only proving that we are guilty of sin. We killed Jesus...and we are still doing it...if we justify ourselves through death. We bring death...but God brings life.

Do we see that the religion we have created around Jesus and His sacrifice is a kind of "anti-Jesus" movement that celebrates the killing of Jesus, except for Easter of course, and the cursory nod that indeed Jesus didn't stay dead.

But had Jesus stayed dead...that would not have stopped the religion we have created...since we look to His death for justification ...not His life.

1 Cor. 15:17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!

Are we not still in our sins...until we become justified by walking in His life?

Is our faith not in the death of Jesus...His shed blood? Do we not adhere to a dead religion...a religion of death? And all this by inverting the meaning of the truth.

Revelation 3:
“And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,

‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. (This is that twisted inverted doctrine that is still infiltrating the Church.) 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. 4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. (These have not twisted Scripture) 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

6 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” ’

 

[Nancy]

This is difficult for me to grasp. Bear with me. The shedding of blood is to...make atonement for sin and to cleanse. In the temple, it had to be done repeatedly because the people kept sinning because of the weakness of their flesh...and this made their conscience not clean.

So...it follows, to me anyway, that the blood of Jesus was to cleanse so that we could go before God. But He also always told healed people, go and sin no more...ah, its too much for me.

Right Jen,
It seems that most times when Jesus healed, it was followed by "go, and sin no more". So...it just makes you wonder if that healing was contingent on the person never again sinning??!
Then we have faith...faith cannot be contingent on healing as, just look at the lame man that was let down through the roof to get to Jesus, by his friends. It was written: said "When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the man, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.” So, who's faith was it that healed/saved this man? As Jesus was not yet crucified, His blood was not yet shed so...this one had to be mercy? Complicated for my lack of grey matter