Sugar coating hell - the bitter pill
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Great question, thanks!
... Mercy triumphs over judgment. - James 2:13 NIV
Forgiveness and reconciliation is the ultimate triumph of Grace. As with us, so with all people.
I believe there will be an age of judgement in which every individual, nation, and leader will answer for their deeds.
But the reason for this judgement will NOT be for senseless punishment, but rather for restoration.
At the end of this age of restoration and redemption, all things and all persons will be renewed and remade.
That would be the short version. Much more to say about this, obviously.
But you may have some immediate questions, which I would be happy to attempt to address.
Or, check out my forum topics on the history of Apokatastasis (the restoration of all things).
Apokatastasis in the Bible
I thought Apokatastasis was only a theological term from the early church. Now I come to find out that it is in the Bible as a word in the NT Greek text. Thanks to my good friend and dear brother @Chadrho for pointing it out. Here it is. Acts 3:21 NIV Heaven must receive him until the time...Apokatastasis in the early church
When many hear about Apokatastasis (the restoration of all things), Universalism, Christian Universalism, Universal Restoration, Universal Reconciliation, Universal Redemption, UR... There is an assumption that this is a new idea. Something modern liberal theologians cooked up. Not so.../
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Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
Hell is a place in Norse mythology, where the invalorous dead go, awaiting Ragnarok.
The Biblical translators honestly screwed up by using this word. Doing so incorporated some paganism that didn't need to be there. Also, they used it to translate several words - Hades, Gehenna, & Tartarus - and they aren't all the same place, so the translation is confusing.
The Biblical translators honestly screwed up by using this word. Doing so incorporated some paganism that didn't need to be there. Also, they used it to translate several words - Hades, Gehenna, & Tartarus - and they aren't all the same place, so the translation is confusing.
Those are great points.
As a move to correct this error, many translations no longer include the word hell at all.
Beginning as early as the year 1798 with Scarlett's N.T.
Bibles and New Testaments that do NOT contain the word "Hell".
Scarlett's N.T. (1798)
The New Testament in Greek and English (Kneeland, 1823)
Young's Literal Translation (1891)
Twentieth Century New Testament (1900)
Rotherham's Emphasized Bible (reprinted, 1902)
Fenton's Holy Bible in Modern English (1903)
Weymouth's New Testament in Modern Speech (1903)
The New Testament, James Moffat, (1917)
Jewish Publication Society Bible Old Testament (1917)
Panin's Numeric English New Testament (1914)
The New Testament, Charles B. Williams, 1937
The People's New Covenant (Overbury, 1925)
Hanson's New Covenant (1884)
Western N.T. (1926)
NT of our Lord and Savior Anointed (Tomanek, 1958)
Concordant Literal NT (1983)
he N.T., A Translation (Clementson, 1938)
Emphatic Diaglott, Greek/English Interlinear (Wilson, 1942)
New American Bible (1970)
Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible (1976)
Tanakh, The Holy Scriptures, Old Testament (1985)
The New Testament, A New Translation (Greber, 1980)
Christian Bible (1991)
The Scriptures (1993)
World English Bible (in progress)
Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha [NT Only]
Original Bible Project (Dr. James Tabor, still in translation)
Zondervan Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1975)**
Int. NASB-NIV Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1993)**
A Critical Paraphrase of the N.T. by Vincent T. Roth (1960)
New Testament, Recovery Version, Living Stream Ministry, 1991
New American Bible Revised Edition (NABRE)
Roman Catholic Holy Bible In Its Original Order, Fred R. Coulter, 2007
Etymological N.T. (An Ultra Literal Translation, 2011, Michael Wine)
Aramaic Peshitta New Testament, 2006, Janet M. Magiera
MirrorWord N.T. (Francois du Toit) still in translation
Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, Electronic Ver. (Tentmaker Ministries)
The Source N.T. (Dr. Ann Nyland), 2004, 2007
Jonathan Mitchell N.T. (Jonathan Mitchell) 2009
The Scriptures, 2016
Tree of Life Version, Baker Bookhouse, 2016******
The New Testament (David Bentley Hart) Yale University Press, 2017
/
Univeraslism then? Would take include Satan and Hitler? What if someone doesn't want to be reconciled?
Yes, in short. But...
Christian Universalism.
Also known as Universal Restoration, Universal Reconciliation, and Ultimate Redemption. (UR)
Not Unitarian Universalism.
Yes. But no one gets off without answering for and dealing with their wrongs.
That's a popular concern, but it won't really be a choice.
Every knee will bow and every tongue confess. (but not forcibly)
Everyone is already redeemed. We won't be tempted to rebel at that point.
/
This would seem to negate free will and remove personal accountability for one's wrongs. Answering for wrongs is not the same as paying for them. That would mean someone like Hitler got away with murder.
It would also lessen Christ's work on the cross. If everyone is saved at the end, what was the point of it? And what is the point of preaching forgiveness of sin and salvation if everyone is saved at the end?
More good questions, thanks.
I hope I am up to the task. But some of these are toughies.
What about free will then?
Jesus taught that we would be better off going into the afterlife without that eye or hand that makes us sin.
So, it sounds like there will be considerable consequences. But again, the goal will be reconciliation, and restoration.
I would say for BOTH the perpetrator and the victim.
But the flip side of that is what if the majority WASN'T saved?
What would be the point of that?
Did Jesus die to save us from God? And only a few of us?
That seems pointless.
It's not ALL about the end.
/ @Hillsage
I hope I am up to the task. But some of these are toughies.
Free will is highly questionable anyway. Can anyone come to God unless he draws them? (nope)
What about free will then?
Jesus taught that we would be better off going into the afterlife without that eye or hand that makes us sin.
So, it sounds like there will be considerable consequences. But again, the goal will be reconciliation, and restoration.
I would say for BOTH the perpetrator and the victim.
No, I don't think that is the case.
Indeed.
But the flip side of that is what if the majority WASN'T saved?
What would be the point of that?
Did Jesus die to save us from God? And only a few of us?
That seems pointless.
The point, which seems to escape many Christians, is that there is value in a relationship with God in the here and now.
It's not ALL about the end.
/ @Hillsage
Something I picked up from, I think it was the Targum of Jonathan, one of the Targums anyway, in Isaiah,
Isaiah 66:24 KJV
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
The understanding that was given was that this "worm" that does not die refers to the remains of the man whom God has destroyed, which, in looking at how this is spoken of, can equally mean "ruined", like Jeremiah's sash that he left under a rock at the river's edge.
That really put a perspective onto Jesus' soliloquy from the cross:
Psalms 22:6 KJV
But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
It's not just colorful language, Jesus was speaking with precision as He received God's judgment in my stead.
Much love!
Without free will there's no such thing as love. Love by it's very nature can't be forced or coerced. God wanted a human family that would freely love Him and that requires a choice. In Christian Universalism, that choice is taken away. If there is no free will then we are just puppets in God's divine play.
Jesus died to save everyone, but not everyone is going to be saved. Again, I think this comes down to free will. There will always be those who want nothing to do with God. So, what is He to do with them? There's only two options: Either seperate them from those that do or force them to submit to Him. The latter would be required for universalism.
Sure there is, but there's also eternity to consider.
This is common church teaching that has no basis in reality.
"God wanted a human family that would freely love Him and that requires a choice." Can never be fulfilled.
We hate God (as proved by our actions) but he still loves us. No matter what.
Human will has no power to stop God's love.
Anyone who claims they don't want God hasn't met him yet.
Eternity is taken care of. What counts is now.
/
Jesus was not just God, He was God "crucified".
The importance of this, as regards Hell, is that the experience of Hell, is not just Hell + experience of torment, Jesus is ready to exchange that torment. If Jesus is ready to exchange the torment, then the torment has an end. The point is if all torment has an end, then so does Hell.
So you can say, Hell + torment is God's judgment, but He made a way out, even as Jesus said "it being better that you were not born, if you betray Me" that is, if you reject that exchange. Jesus limits God's Judgment, that we might be free of Hell. We need to embrace the exchange, before it is too late.
The importance of this, as regards Hell, is that the experience of Hell, is not just Hell + experience of torment, Jesus is ready to exchange that torment. If Jesus is ready to exchange the torment, then the torment has an end. The point is if all torment has an end, then so does Hell.
So you can say, Hell + torment is God's judgment, but He made a way out, even as Jesus said "it being better that you were not born, if you betray Me" that is, if you reject that exchange. Jesus limits God's Judgment, that we might be free of Hell. We need to embrace the exchange, before it is too late.
Keiw
Well-Known Member
There is no place of literal eternal suffering. It was symbolism.
Gods justice scales alone prove it-- He taught all perfect justice= An eye for an eye-his justice scales are perfect, uncorruptable. Lets apply those scales toa literal eternal suffering
On one side-70-100 years of an unrepented sinful life---- On the other side-trillions x trillions x trillions of never ending years of punishment= an eye for a gazillion eyes= not the true Gods justice.
As well a single NT teaching on the matter proves symbolism--A place where the worm dieth not Mark 9:48)--No worm in existence could survive an hour in a hot firey place let alone dieth not.
The true God actually set before all-Deut 30:19= LIFE or DEATH)---- both will be eternal.
Thanks for your post.
Do you think their could be spiritual life and death, aside from physical life and death?
Which kind is referred to in Deut 30:19 ?
/
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
heck many who claim to love him DONT know HIM either . they know only the wordly view of love and see that view
as THE LOVE of GOD . yeah , we ought to ponder on that as well
Keiw
Well-Known Member
The only ones who are promised heaven, to be spirit beings are the little flock( Luke 12:16)-These are the anointed bride of Christ=144,000 are bought from the earth=numbered.( Rev 14:3)
The great crowd which no man can number( Rev 7:9) = The other sheep( John 10:16) who are not of that fold----- not of( little flock)--These are promised the earth-Matt 5:5, Psalm 37:29, Prov 2:21-22
The lake of fire= eternal destruction.
Keiw
Well-Known Member
The good news is-Under Gods kingdom rule= No more satan influences, no more-war, hate, greed, immorality, disease, sickness, starvation--all the way down the line--Gods kingdom is a cure all. Mortals living young forever, loved ones resurrected and given a second chance to gain life everlasting. All one united human family under Jehovah and his son. All motives of mortal hearts will be out of love, not seeking profit. All of Gods creatures living in harmony-Isaiah 11--surely great news for the earth and heaven.
There will certainly be BILLIONS in the "everlasting fire" that Jesus warned us about.
Mt 7 Narrow is the way that leads to life and FEW there be who find it.
Mt 7 Narrow is the way that leads to life and FEW there be who find it.
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