Sugar coating hell - the bitter pill

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St. SteVen

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"Eternal separation from God." (whatever that means to you)

A follow-up to the previous topic:

The changing perception of hell. - How do you define it?

The hell doctrine has always been "the fly in the ointment" for me.
Being raised evangelical, I was fine with all of it, (didn't know any better) except the hell doctrine.
The glitch in the Matrix. "You've been down that road. You know where it ends."

Even very by-the-book Christians are modifying their views on hell, or the afterlife.
As the previous trend for fire-and-brimstone preaching has all but gone the way of the dinosaur.
Leaning toward a more personalized stance on "eternal separation from God". (whatever that means to you)

- What's your definition of hell?
- How do you see the final judgment playing out?
- Will everyone be saved in the end?
- Will the Lord who taught us to love our enemies incinerate his?

/
 

Starise

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"Eternal separation from God." (whatever that means to you)

A follow-up to the previous topic:

The changing perception of hell. - How do you define it?

The hell doctrine has always been "the fly in the ointment" for me.
Being raised evangelical, I was fine with all of it, (didn't know any better) except the hell doctrine.
The glitch in the Matrix. "You've been down that road. You know where it ends."

Even very by-the-book Christians are modifying their views on hell, or the afterlife.
As the previous trend for fire-and-brimstone preaching has all but gone the way of the dinosaur.
Leaning toward a more personalized stance on "eternal separation from God". (whatever that means to you)

- What's your definition of hell?
- How do you see the final judgment playing out?
- Will everyone be saved in the end?
- Will the Lord who taught us to love our enemies incinerate his?

/

I have gone through a lot to get back to the beginning if that makes sense. I had to prove everything out to myself going by every reference in the bible so I could be assured.

Some of the very first things that come out on this subject when looking at our most used medium, the web, is there are different views on it but most of the more fringe views come from the more fringe belief systems i.e. th Day Adventist, Jehovah's Witnesses etc. These veer from truth. These groups don't always overtly identify themselves online. I suggest using the blue letter bible as an online resource which is free and breaks things down into the original languages.

It's been a trend to take a word translated as hell from the greek languages that really means garbage dump or similar, and then apply that line of thought to ALL passages. The only problem with it is it doesn't work out using that with all passages dealing with the final resting place of the lost/unsaved. If we have gotten to the place where the bible only means what we individually think it means we are in big trouble.

The subject has to be navigated well using all passages and references which incidentally may not expressly say "hell" but be referring to the eternal place of torment. We don't interpret bible using emotion and what we think feels right. I believe we should wholly use the logic the Lord has given us. If it doesn't "sit well", we can't attempt to change the meaning of the text on emotions.

There IS a place for the wicked unrepentent. Is it eternal? The bible says it is. Are the souls going into it eternal? The bible say souls can be destroyed, but that destruction points to it being an eternal destruction.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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"Eternal separation from God." (whatever that means to you)

A follow-up to the previous topic:

The changing perception of hell. - How do you define it?

The hell doctrine has always been "the fly in the ointment" for me.
Being raised evangelical, I was fine with all of it, (didn't know any better) except the hell doctrine.
The glitch in the Matrix. "You've been down that road. You know where it ends."

Even very by-the-book Christians are modifying their views on hell, or the afterlife.
As the previous trend for fire-and-brimstone preaching has all but gone the way of the dinosaur.
Leaning toward a more personalized stance on "eternal separation from God". (whatever that means to you)

- What's your definition of hell?
- How do you see the final judgment playing out?
- Will everyone be saved in the end?
- Will the Lord who taught us to love our enemies incinerate his?

/
Hades is not Hell.
Hades ( the underworld, within the earth, beneath the crust and the waters, the deep caverns of darkness) is a temporary prison for those ungodly souls.
Tartarus is part of Hades but deeper and separate from human souls in that there are demons there.
Hell is the final place of judgement, the LAKE OF FIRE.
Hades, everyone in it and Death itself will be cast into the Lake of Fire and destroyed. This is more of an event which occurs simultaneously with the destruction of the first heavens and first earth. It is called the second death.
2 Peter 3:10 describes this event.

So if Hades is part of this earth and the earth is destroyed, then it stands to reason Hades will be too.

If you were in outer space and viewed this happening, it would look like a lake of fire. Then the New Heavens and New Earth will be the only reality. No need for sun ... no more nights. I can present scripture backs up all this.

The key word to look at is aionion or anionios. It has variable meanings. When applied to temporal things it means ages, lifetimes, generations, etc. When applied to God, His domain and our salvation, it means eternal, or at least moving forward infinitely. We see terms like everlasting describing anything temporal, it really should be translated as age-lasting or age-during. Mountains are not eternal, they last for as long as the earth will. Crearion isn't eternal.
Another word to examine is destruction/ destroy. It means to put an end to. You can't destroy something eternally. That would be act tradition, contradiction, an indesructible destruction or imperishable persihing. Throw a piece of paper on the fire and it is destroyed. That's the concept we should accept. Anything thrown into a lava lake that is 2000 degrees comes to an end quickly, it doesn't exist forever. Well except the lava rock remains. But the first earth will destroyed in a fervent heat, hotter than a volcano, the elements will dissolve/ melt. That is the idea.
 
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St. SteVen

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Excellent post, thank you.
That doesn't mean I agree with everything you wrote, but...
I respect anyone that has done their homework and arrived at a conclusion.
I changed my views at some point. So might you.
I have gone through a lot to get back to the beginning if that makes sense. I had to prove everything out to myself going by every reference in the bible so I could be assured.
Good. That makes sense. I appreciate the effort.

Some of the very first things that come out on this subject when looking at our most used medium, the web, is there are different views on it but most of the more fringe views come from the more fringe belief systems i.e. th Day Adventist, Jehovah's Witnesses etc. These veer from truth. These groups don't always overtly identify themselves online. I suggest using the blue letter bible as an online resource which is free and breaks things down into the original languages.
Personally, I try not to dismiss any group based on a presumption.
They are probably right about something, or they would no longer be in existence.

It's been a trend to take a word translated as hell from the greek languages that really means garbage dump or similar, and then apply that line of thought to ALL passages. The only problem with it is it doesn't work out using that with all passages dealing with the final resting place of the lost/unsaved. If we have gotten to the place where the bible only means what we individually think it means we are in big trouble.
Right. We need to discern between the different words used (misused) as "hell".


Bibles and New Testaments that do NOT contain the word "Hell".

Scarlett's N.T. (1798)
The New Testament in Greek and English (Kneeland, 1823)
Young's Literal Translation (1891)
Twentieth Century New Testament (1900)
Rotherham's Emphasized Bible (reprinted, 1902)
Fenton's Holy Bible in Modern English (1903)
Weymouth's New Testament in Modern Speech (1903)
The New Testament, James Moffat, (1917)
Jewish Publication Society Bible Old Testament (1917)
Panin's Numeric English New Testament (1914)
The New Testament, Charles B. Williams, 1937
The People's New Covenant (Overbury, 1925)
Hanson's New Covenant (1884)
Western N.T. (1926)
NT of our Lord and Savior Anointed (Tomanek, 1958)
Concordant Literal NT (1983)
he N.T., A Translation (Clementson, 1938)
Emphatic Diaglott, Greek/English Interlinear (Wilson, 1942)
New American Bible (1970)
Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible (1976)
Tanakh, The Holy Scriptures, Old Testament (1985)
The New Testament, A New Translation (Greber, 1980)
Christian Bible (1991)
The Scriptures (1993)
World English Bible (in progress)
Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha [NT Only]
Original Bible Project (Dr. James Tabor, still in translation)
Zondervan Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1975)**
Int. NASB-NIV Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1993)**
A Critical Paraphrase of the N.T. by Vincent T. Roth (1960)
New Testament, Recovery Version, Living Stream Ministry, 1991
New American Bible Revised Edition (NABRE)
Roman Catholic Holy Bible In Its Original Order, Fred R. Coulter, 2007
Etymological N.T. (An Ultra Literal Translation, 2011, Michael Wine)
Aramaic Peshitta New Testament, 2006, Janet M. Magiera
MirrorWord N.T. (Francois du Toit) still in translation
Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, Electronic Ver. (Tentmaker Ministries)
The Source N.T. (Dr. Ann Nyland), 2004, 2007
Jonathan Mitchell N.T. (Jonathan Mitchell) 2009
The Scriptures, 2016
Tree of Life Version, Baker Bookhouse, 2016******
The New Testament (David Bentley Hart) Yale University Press, 2017

The subject has to be navigated well using all passages and references which incidentally may not expressly say "hell" but be referring to the eternal place of torment. We don't interpret bible using emotion and what we think feels right. I believe we should wholly use the logic the Lord has given us. If it doesn't "sit well", we can't attempt to change the meaning of the text on emotions.
Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated
as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below.
This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life
and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age?
Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

There IS a place for the wicked unrepentent. Is it eternal? The bible says it is. Are the souls going into it eternal? The bible say souls can be destroyed, but that destruction points to it being an eternal destruction.
For destruction, we need to consider another NT Greek word: Kolasis
This topic covers that aspect.

Kolasis - William Barclay

/
 

St. SteVen

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We don't interpret bible using emotion and what we think feels right. I believe we should wholly use the logic the Lord has given us. If it doesn't "sit well", we can't attempt to change the meaning of the text on emotions.
I find this call to an unemotional response interesting.

That is the sugar coating! Because hell is a bitter pill.

Imagine, even in an unemotional rational sense what we are talking about here.
Obviously God created hell. And what are we told that he created exactly?
A place of eternal torment with no hope of escape.

Think about the horror of a burn ward at the hospital. Such a terrible thing to happen to a human.
If a human is not saved from the fire they will not survive at all. If they are rescued in time...
the treatment and recovery is horrific.

Imagine a burning victim that can never die, or is held in a constant state of death while burning.
Completely burned up, only to burst into flames again. Over and over for all eternity.
Screaming in unending agony. With no one to rescue them. Without hope.

Is this justice? Would God do this? This slanderous charge is worse then any crime committed by humankind.
If you were slated for eternity in hell, but could choose to be crucified as Jesus was, which would you choose?
Again, is this justice? Seems like Jesus got off easy compared to what the church claims will happen to unbelievers.

But let's not get all emotional about this!
Just sugar coat that bitter pill and swallow it.

No thanks!

/
 

St. SteVen

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The key word to look at is aionion or anionios. It has variable meanings. When applied to temporal things it means ages, lifetimes, generations, etc. When applied to God, His domain and our salvation, it means eternal, or at least moving forward infinitely. We see terms like everlasting describing anything temporal, it really should be translated as age-lasting or age-during. Mountains are not eternal, they last for as long as the earth will. Crearion isn't eternal.
Good post, thanks.

As I understand it, eternity is not forfeited by measuring it in ages. One age proceeds the next.
I suppose this helps to keep a historical view of events.
Rather than the afterlife being one eternal span of unending "time". (for lack of a better term)

We could divide it up history based on what we already know. (shooting from the hip here)
- The original age of creation. Be it a week, or billions of years.
- Whatever ages follow that. Stone age, iron age, bronze age, etc.
- The age of law, the covenants, Israel.
- The age of grace. Human ages like, the space age, the computer age, etc.
- The end times age.
- The Millennial age.
- An age of judgment, correction, reconciliation, and redemption. (the UR view)
- An age for creation of the new heavens and earth.
- Whatever ages follow that, for eternity.

/
 

Hobie

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The
"Eternal separation from God." (whatever that means to you)

A follow-up to the previous topic:

The changing perception of hell. - How do you define it?

The hell doctrine has always been "the fly in the ointment" for me.
Being raised evangelical, I was fine with all of it, (didn't know any better) except the hell doctrine.
The glitch in the Matrix. "You've been down that road. You know where it ends."

Even very by-the-book Christians are modifying their views on hell, or the afterlife.
As the previous trend for fire-and-brimstone preaching has all but gone the way of the dinosaur.
Leaning toward a more personalized stance on "eternal separation from God". (whatever that means to you)

- What's your definition of hell?
- How do you see the final judgment playing out?
- Will everyone be saved in the end?
- Will the Lord who taught us to love our enemies incinerate his?

/
Those who hate God will not want anything to do with Him, so it will be a separation which they desire, but it is a complete and final one.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Good post, thanks.

As I understand it, eternity is not forfeited by measuring it in ages. One age proceeds the next.
I suppose this helps to keep a historical view of events.
Rather than the afterlife being one eternal span of unending "time". (for lack of a better term)

We could divide it up history based on what we already know. (shooting from the hip here)
- The original age of creation. Be it a week, or billions of years.
- Whatever ages follow that. Stone age, iron age, bronze age, etc.
- The age of law, the covenants, Israel.
- The age of grace. Human ages like, the space age, the computer age, etc.
- The end times age.
- The Millennial age.
- An age of judgment, correction, reconciliation, and redemption. (the UR view)
- An age for creation of the new heavens and earth.
- Whatever ages follow that, for eternity.

/
Yes, that is one way of looking at it. The other would be that the word has variable meanings determined by the realm it is applied to. Earth and everything in it is temporal; God, His domain and our salvation is not.
Notice in this verse everlasting (owlam in Hebrew) cannot mean eternal/ eternity; it wouldn't make sense: " from eternal to eternal".
"Before the mountains were brought forth, Or ever You had formed the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God." Psalm 90:2
from ages to ages or age-during to age-during makes more sense, since they are temporal.

He stood, and measured the earth: He beheld, and drove asunder the nations; And the everlasting mountains were scattered, The perpetual hills did bow: His ways are everlasting. Hab. 3:6

Are  mountains eternal? No
Are God's ways eternal? Yes


The key verse to distinguish a variable meaning of the same word, aionion:
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Matthew 25:46 KJV

And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.' Matthew 25:46 YLT


who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,
2 Thes. 1:9 YLT
 
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St. SteVen

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@Hobie wrote:
Satan fills them with such hatred that the only release is a complete seperation, and that is what the second and final death is..

Nonsense.
How did you arrive at such a conclusion?

/ @Hobie
 

Starise

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Personally, I try not to dismiss any group based on a presumption.
They are probably right about something, or they would no longer be in existence.

The way I see the fringe groups is entirely different. They mostly have a quasi christian core but either add fluff or delete key doctrines. I personally don't delete the people. We are to love everyone, but I don't tolerate what amounts to a doctrine clearly false. Satan likes to add a little stink to everything if it has the effect of negating important and necessary doctrines.

That is the sugar coating! Because hell is a bitter pill.

Imagine, even in an unemotional rational sense what we are talking about here.
Obviously God created hell. And what are we told that he created exactly?
A place of eternal torment with no hope of escape.

True that.

s this justice? Would God do this? This slanderous charge is worse then any crime committed by humankind.
If you were slated for eternity in hell, but could choose to be crucified as Jesus was, which would you choose?
Again, is this justice? Seems like Jesus got off easy compared to what the church claims will happen to unbelievers.

This is emotion. Not one word of text. I suggest working at this from the other end.

@Hobie wrote:
Satan fills them with such hatred that the only release is a complete seperation, and that is what the second and final death is..

Nonsense.
How did you arrive at such a conclusion?

/ @Hobie

Hobi is 7th Day adventist I believe and his comments are along those lines. I do not agree.
 
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Jericho

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- What's your definition of hell?

A place of eternal separation is as good a definition as any. I think eternal separation means what it says. You're cut off from God for all eternity. When you reject God, you reject everything that He is. God is love; hell is devoid of love. God is light, hell is outer darkness. Hell is the manifestation of everything that God is not. It is not terrible because God made it terrible; it's terrible because God is not there.


- How do you see the final judgment playing out?

Those who are saved will be judged on their works and rewarded accordingly. Those that are not saved will be judged by their own righteousness and will fall short.


- Will everyone be saved in the end?

No, and not everyone wants to be saved and submit their will to God. He's not going to force anyone to serve Him. So, there has to be a separation between the two groups.


- Will the Lord who taught us to love our enemies incinerate his?

God wanted us to love our enemies because He is not a God of hate. When God judges, He doesn't do it out of animosity. It clearly says God doesn't want anyone to perish. But if God is a just God, He can't do anything that is against His nature and must judge accordingly. The price of sin is death (i.e. eternal separation). Therefore, an atonement has to be made. Israel atoned for their sin through animal sacrifice, although it was only a temporary atonement. Christ, in His divinity, was able to permanently atone for us all, but only if we accept His atonement. Those who, by their own free will choice, didn't accept it have to atone for their own sins for all eternity because the price can never be met. We are incapable of atoning for our own sins.
 
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St. SteVen

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A place of eternal separation is as good a definition as any.
This is the sugar-coating of which I speak.
The rest of your post takes a much more grim, but realistic, turn toward the full definition from the church.

Good post. Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed response.
I posted rebuttals/my thoughts about this starting at post #4.
Rather than repeat all that, I will direct you there.

Reply to anything there that you would like to address further. Thanks.

/
 

Jericho

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This is the sugar-coating of which I speak.
The rest of your post takes a much more grim, but realistic, turn toward the full definition from the church.

Good post. Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed response.
I posted rebuttals/my thoughts about this starting at post #4.
Rather than repeat all that, I will direct you there.

Reply to anything there that you would like to address further. Thanks.

/

Can you define what you mean by "sugar-coating hell"?
 

St. SteVen

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Can you define what you mean by "sugar-coating hell"?
The first line of the OP. (post #1)
"Eternal separation from God." (whatever that means to you)"

That's the "sugar-coating". The bitter pill is more like...
Eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape. (the forever-burning hell)

/