The changing perception of hell. - How do you define it?

[Tulipbee]

Even very by-the-book Christians are modifying their views on hell, or the afterlife.
As the previous trend for fire-and-brimstone preaching has all but gone the way of the dinosaur.
Leaning toward a more personalized stance on "eternal separation from God". (whatever that means to you)

- What's your definition of hell?
- How do you see the final judgment playing out?
- Will everyone be saved in the end?
- Will the Lord who taught us to love our enemies incinerate his?

This video presents three views. Which view do you resonate with?

- Damnationism
- Annihilationism
- Universalism

/

In the Reformed Christian tradition, the understanding of hell, the final judgment, and universal salvation is rooted in interpretations of biblical passages. It's important to note that interpretations can vary, even within the Reformed tradition, and individuals may hold slightly different views. Here are responses based on a typical Reformed perspective:

1. Definition of Hell: The concept of hell in Reformed theology often aligns with a place of eternal separation from God, where the unrepentant face the consequences of their sin. This separation is seen as a just punishment for rejecting God's offer of salvation through Christ. One biblical reference supporting this view is Matthew 25:46 (ESV): "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
2. Final Judgment: Reformed theology emphasizes a final judgment day when all individuals will stand before God to give an account for their lives. The judgment is based on whether one has faith in Christ for salvation. A key passage supporting this perspective is Revelation 20:12 (ESV): "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done."
3. Universal Salvation: The Reformed tradition generally does not support the idea of universal salvation, as it maintains that salvation is by God's grace through faith in Christ. While God desires all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4), not all will be saved due to human rebellion and rejection of God. Romans 9:22-23 (ESV) reflects this emphasis: "What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory."
4. God's Love and Judgment: The Reformed view acknowledges the tension between God's love and justice. While God is loving and merciful, He is also just, and His justice demands the punishment of sin. The concept of God's love includes warnings about the consequences of rejecting His grace. Hebrews 10:31 (ESV) illustrates this perspective: "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

It's important to engage in respectful dialogue and recognize that interpretations of these passages can differ among Christians. Some within the Reformed tradition may emphasize different aspects or hold nuanced views on these theological topics.

 

[St. SteVen]

Thanks for your reply.

3. Universal Salvation: The Reformed tradition generally does not support the idea of universal salvation, as it maintains that salvation is by God's grace through faith in Christ. While God desires all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4), not all will be saved due to human rebellion and rejection of God. Romans 9:22-23 (ESV) reflects this emphasis: "What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory."

Universal Salvation is greatly misunderstood. It actually AGREES that "salvation is by God's grace through faith in Christ."
Note that Romans 9:22-23 begins with "What if..." That certainly doesn't mean that he will, only that he could.

/

 

[Hillsage]

Just did find more of my deleted portion

URL on Three brains of body.

WHAT ARE THE THREE BRAINS OF THE BODY - Google Search

So you are a doctor? Then you should be acquainted with the real and present danger of blood transfusions which are claimed to save lives, but in actual fact more people die after accepting a blood transfusion than they ever have from rejecting one.

Yes, as a DC we studied a lot of the dangers of BIG PHARMA educated Allopaths and Osteopaths. But mostly vaccinations and drugs. But none of that has anything to do with God saying you can't give blood because an OT verse speaking of ZAO soul life which refers to oxygen in the blood. What does the "BREATHING soul" breath? 'LITERAL' O2..AIR...which is not spirit. Kind of like when Jesus said he had 'food to eat his disciples knew not of.' He also had the spirit of Christ in Him, which the disciples also did not know of....until AFTER HE WAS GLORIFIED. And it was that spirit which raised his dead blood body from the grave with ZOE life.

As for giving O2 blood or receiving someone. elses blood for ZAO life what did Jesus say?
JOH 15:13 Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his SOUL life(Gr=psuche) for his friends.

And don't quote STRONG's for the definition of the Greek word PSUCHE. Because he didn't understand the difference betweeen spirit/PNEUMA and soul/PSUCHE either. It's obvious when you study and see he uses both in the definition of soul.`

I would invite you to view a couple of short videos from the Australian Blood Authority regarding the risk/ benefits of blood transfusions in today’s medical practice.

Risks verses benefits of blood transfusion and a patient study (link)

Neither of these are from JW’s. Our stand is completely scriptural, but it has had many benefits for those who have refused to take into their body, someone else’s blood...especially when you live in a country where blood is sold. Do you know whose blood you are getting?

I appreciate your 'link' but really do already understand the medical reasons. My own mother came under severe weakness and walking issues after a blood transfusion. Baffeled our local doctor DO, who actually refered her to Denver for specialist medical care to no diagnostic avail. But while there an aunt talked her into doing a Catholic Novena somewhere in the mountains where you had to climb 300 steps to get to 'the statue'. My dad and aunt had to practically carry her up, but she got miraculously healed. Go figure, I was 13.

1 Cor 13:9-13
”For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially, 10 but when what is complete comes, what is partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child…. 13 Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love.”

Heb 5:12-14…
”For although by now you should be teachers, you again need someone to teach you from the beginning the elementary things of the sacred pronouncements of God, and you have gone back to needing milk, not solid food. 13 For everyone who continues to feed on milk is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, for he is a young child. 14 But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their powers of discernment trained to distinguish both right and wrong.”

I think Paul disagrees with you….Christian maturity is very important. The spiritual ‘babies’ have to grow up and learn to eat solid food, and then to stand on their own two feet In the ‘warfare’ that comes with the territory.

Then you don't understand what I said. I said Jesus is not doing all this great last days supernatural workings through babies Gr= Pais/babies, or through paidions/toddlers, or teknon/teenagers. He will be doing his work through those who have reached a spirutal maturity level that the church has NEVER seen or reached. That would be as HUIOS or manifested som maturity = to that of Jesus. It will be 'they' who overcome and destroy the last enemy of physical death.

And therein lies “the foot in the door” for the devil to do his thing…..depart from the scriptures to introduce your own ideas because you believe that they are revealed to the “saints”…..and you claim to be one of them…..that doesn’t make you one of them…….sorry, I am not convinced of your authority over scripture.

And for those very same reasons, neither do I worship the 'Johnny come lately sales pitch' of the founders of JW, Mormonism and Christiandom. IMO no ORGANIZED RELIGIOUS system today has arrived. All fall short of the endtime church that will take us to God's intended goal.

If you say so…..but I thank God every day that the devil is not using his deceptive tricks on me….the supernatural stuff is his thing in this day and age (2 Thess 2:9-12)…..Jehovah needs no tricks to convince people of his truth…that happens in the heart, and it leads one into a united global family of his witnesses. (1 Cor 1:10; John 6:65)

The supernatural tricks you say. That simply reminds me of the church of Philidelphia in the book of the Revelation. The church that I, for decades, have applied the FUNDAMENTALISTS to.

REV 3:8* "'I know your works. Behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut; I know that you have but LITTLE POWER, and yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name.

Only problem for you guys is, that "little power" pertains to the spiritual power of basic salvation from the spirit of Christ, but nothing from the Holy Spirit of God. That's where the Pentecostal and Charismatic 'church' movement took the more recent church to. Still waiting for the fullness of power though. The 'other' only problem for you guys is which NAME is not denied. You think JEHOVAH, and I think JESUS.

@Aunty Jane
@St. SteVen

 

[Aunty Jane]

Definition of Hell: The concept of hell in Reformed theology often aligns with a place of eternal separation from God, where the unrepentant face the consequences of their sin. This separation is seen as a just punishment for rejecting God's offer of salvation through Christ. One biblical reference supporting this view is Matthew 25:46 (ESV): "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Does Reformed theology believe in an immortal soul that survives the death of the body?

What if “eternal separation” or “eternal punishment” is actually eternal death? What more just a punishment for the incorrigibly wicked could there be? Under God’s law to Israel, no punishment involved torment or torture.....death was the highest penalty paid for any crime. The Jews had no belief in an immortal soul...they believed in resurrection which was a return to life, and Jesus demonstrated what that meant with his friend Lazarus.....he was returned to this life and reunited with his family...and so were all of those resurrected in Bible times. (John 11:11-14)

Jesus’ resurrection took place three days after his execution......but he was the first to be raised as a spirit, not in the flesh. (1 Peter 3:18; Col 1:18)

Final Judgment: Reformed theology emphasizes a final judgment day when all individuals will stand before God to give an account for their lives. The judgment is based on whether one has faith in Christ for salvation. A key passage supporting this perspective is Revelation 20:12 (ESV): "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done."

When do you see this final judgment taking place? Revelation 20 is full of spiritual gems....it’s one of my favourite chapters in the Bible.

Universal Salvation: The Reformed tradition generally does not support the idea of universal salvation, as it maintains that salvation is by God's grace through faith in Christ. While God desires all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4), not all will be saved due to human rebellion and rejection of God.

Free will means we have to choose to accept Jesus as our savior, without reservation. It involves ongoing conduct that will be acceptable to God, not just man.
If for example, Jesus and his apostles taught that no worshipper of the true God can have blood on their hands by participating in any activity that involves the unsanctioned taking of human life, (Isa 1:15) can a Christian then join the military and train to kill his fellow man, and then be sent to a war zone and to carry out that training? Are these God’s enemies or man’s?
Jesus said....
“You heard that it was said: ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you”.

Can you love your enemy with a carnal weapon of any kind? (2 Cor 10:3-5)

God's Love and Judgment: The Reformed view acknowledges the tension between God's love and justice. While God is loving and merciful, He is also just, and His justice demands the punishment of sin. The concept of God's love includes warnings about the consequences of rejecting His grace. Hebrews 10:31 (ESV) illustrates this perspective: "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

God’s justice is tempered by his mercy as they are completely balanced. He is not a God of sentiment as this never interferes with the execution of his perfect justice. No one can turn on crocodile tears with God or Jesus...they don’t work.

It's important to engage in respectful dialogue and recognize that interpretations of these passages can differ among Christians. Some within the Reformed tradition may emphasize different aspects or hold nuanced views on these theological topics.

I believe this too....we should be able to discuss these sensitive topics like adults and agree to disagree when necessary. But having said that, I will disagree with your last sentence there as I believe that God’s spirit produces unity, not division. (1 Cor 1:10)
Can a perfect God create factions within his own people? NO! But humans can, and they have done so all through “Christian” history.....no more so than since the Protestant Reformation. It is true that Roman Catholicism was a complete departure from Christ’s teachings and example, but the Reformation simply opened up Pandora’s box and unleashed a plethora of man made religions that twist the scriptures and lead people away from God, rather than to him. (Matt 7:13-14) The true path to life is “cramped and narrow” for a reason.

We all need to do our homework.

Welcome to CB by the way.....

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes, as a DC we studied a lot of the dangers of BIG PHARMA educated Allopaths and Osteopaths. But mostly vaccinations and drugs.

I have little faith in big pharma medicine....their drugs kill more people than the diseases that they are supposed to be treating. Profit is more important than cures, which will never be sought by those who make a fortune out of patent medicines. They just want pill popping customers for life.

But none of that has anything to do with God saying you can't give blood because an OT verse speaking of ZAO soul life which refers to oxygen in the blood. What does the "BREATHING soul" breath? 'LITERAL' O2..AIR...which is not spirit. Kind of like when Jesus said he had 'food to eat his disciples knew not of.' He also had the spirit of Christ in Him, which the disciples also did not know of....until AFTER HE WAS GLORIFIED. And it was that spirit which raised his dead blood body from the grave with ZOE life.

I will beg to differ, since the breathing process was started by God when he created Adam. It was “the breath (nᵊšāmâ....spirit) of life” that God imparted....the animating spirit that is passed on to all newborns.

The original language words translated “spirit” have a variety of meanings....

eg. The Hebrew word “ruʹach” and the Greek word “pneuʹma”, often translated “spirit,” refer to that which is invisible to human sight and gives evidence of force in motion. The Hebrew and Greek words are used with reference to (1) wind, (2) the active life-force in earthly creatures, (3) the impelling force that issues from a person’s figurative heart and causes him to say and do things in a certain way, (4) inspired expressions originating from an invisible source, (5) spirit persons, and (6) God’s active force, or holy spirit. (Ex 35:21; Psalm 104:29; Matt 12:43; Luke 11:13)

As for giving O2 blood or receiving someone. elses blood for ZAO life what did Jesus say?
JOH 15:13 Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his SOUL life(Gr=psuche) for his friends.

Well, that again is stretching what the scripture says.....a donor is not laying down his life for the recipient...in the US someone paid them money to do that....not exactly what that scripture was describing, is it?

And don't quote STRONG's for the definition of the Greek word PSUCHE. Because he didn't understand the difference betweeen spirit/PNEUMA and soul/PSUCHE either. It's obvious when you study and see he uses both in the definition of soul.`

Youve lost me here...there is no “PSUCHE” listed for either the NASB or the KJV....Where are you getting this info from?
“Pneuma” is directly linked to air...or breathing, since we have words in English that confirm this....
“Pneumatic” tyres contain what?
“Pneumonia” pertains to an infection in what organs?
“Pneumococci” affects what part of the body? C’mon doc....you know this.

I appreciate your 'link' but really do already understand the medical reasons. My own mother came under severe weakness and walking issues after a blood transfusion. Baffeled our local doctor DO, who actually refered her to Denver for specialist medical care to no diagnostic avail. But while there an aunt talked her into doing a Catholic Novena somewhere in the mountains where you had to climb 300 steps to get to 'the statue'. My dad and aunt had to practically carry her up, but she got miraculously healed. Go figure, I was 13.

She was miraculously healed by appealing to an idol, doing a Catholic novena.....oh please! Which of those are scriptural?....and you believe this?

Then you don't understand what I said. I said Jesus is not doing all this great last days supernatural workings through babies Gr= Pais/babies, or through paidions/toddlers, or teknon/teenagers. He will be doing his work through those who have reached a spirutal maturity level that the church has NEVER seen or reached. That would be as HUIOS or manifested som maturity = to that of Jesus. It will be 'they' who overcome and destroy the last enemy of physical death.

Well I guess you don’t understand what I said either.....
Supernatural gifts ended with the apostles who were the only ones who could pass them on through the laying on of hands.....no one else was authorised to impart the spiritual gifts but them.
If you see supernatural gifts in people today, they are not from God but from the pretender doing his “angel of light” trick.
Paul said that deluded ones hang on to these so called miracles because they believe that God sent them his holy spirit.....he doesn’t do that now, as he has no need to since they were just demonstrations of what would take place on a global scale in the new world to come.

If it is the same spirit as in the first century, that is performing these “miracles” then it has lost its power over the centuries. Do you know how many people go to Lourdes every year expecting a miracle that never happens? Or those who attend faith healing sessions only to have their malady return the next day? That is not how God’s spirit operates....and never has.

And for those very same reasons, neither do I worship the 'Johnny come lately sales pitch' of the founders of JW, Mormonism and Christiandom. IMO no ORGANIZED RELIGIOUS system today has arrived. All fall short of the endtime church that will take us to God's intended goal.

Jesus has appointed a slave to feed his household.....is it you? (Matt 24:45)

Mormons do not come to people with God’s word, they come with an addition that they claim is inspired.....is it? I know it plagiarizes the KJV word for word in some places......and they never mention the kingdom of God in their short missionary life either.

I have to ask....are you out on a limb all by yourself with no brotherhood who supports what you believe? With whom do you meet for worship? Who is the “ek·kle·siʹa,” for you today?....those who disagree with your particular brand of “Christianity”? Is that how God operates? If someone comes to you and asks “who today, teaches the truth of God’s word?”, where would you send them? In the first century, God did not expect the Jews to just read the Bible and listen to Jesus preaching only to wander off and do their own thing. All had to be united in worship of “the only true God” and understand who he is, and what the relationship is between this Father and son.

Only problem for you guys is, that "little power" pertains to the spiritual power of basic salvation from the spirit of Christ, but nothing from the Holy Spirit of God. That's where the Pentecostal and Charismatic 'church' movement took the more recent church to. Still waiting for the fullness of power though.

If you think that the ‘great commission’ was an easy task assigned to Christ’s disciples, then please tell me why no church is engaged in this life saving ‘search and rescue mission’? (Matt 28:19-20; Matt 10:11-14) Christ’s disciples were to give this “witness” about “God’s kingdom” “in all the inhabited earth” before “the end” comes....(Matt 24:14) Where are the churches out there preaching? MIA...it seems...someone else’s job apparently. No one seems to know exactly what God’s Kingdom is.....why is that when it is part of the Lord’s Prayer? How does God’s kingdom “come”? When is God’s will done “on earth as it is in heaven”?

Jesus said he would be “with” his disciples “all the days” in this work that he assigned...so who is he backing if no one else is carrying out that commission? Please explain....

The 'other' only problem for you guys is which NAME is not denied. You think JEHOVAH, and I think JESUS.

One of us is dead wrong......we have to be calling on the right name in order to gain salvation....God’s name was never Jesus. Read Psalm 83:18 in the KJV.....
Jesus has many names, Jehovah has only one.

At Acts 2:21, Peter was quoting Joel 2:32, which if you look it up in the Jewish Tanakh has the Tetragrammaton in plain sight. We have to be “calling on the name of Jehovah”, which is the English translation of the divine name. If you prefer the transliteration you can say “Yahweh”.....God understands his name in all languages. Yet we never hear it mentioned in the churches except when they pray the Lord’s Prayer saying “hallowed be thy name”.......but they never use it.

 

[Tulipbee]

Thanks for your reply.

Universal Salvation is greatly misunderstood. It actually AGREES that "salvation is by God's grace through faith in Christ."
Note that Romans 9:22-23 begins with "What if..." That certainly doesn't mean that he will, only that he could.

/

While Calvinism is often associated with the idea of limited atonement, meaning that Christ's atonement is only effective for the elect, there are different perspectives within the broader Calvinist tradition. Some Calvinists hold to the belief in "limited atonement," suggesting that Christ's redemptive work is intended only for the elect, while others propose a more expansive view, sometimes referred to as "hypothetical universalism" or "four-point Calvinism."

Regarding the concept of Universal Salvation, it's important to clarify that Calvinism, as a whole, tends to emphasize the sovereignty of God in the process of salvation. The idea that salvation is by God's grace through faith in Christ is indeed a central tenet of Reformed theology. However, the emphasis is on God's sovereign choice in selecting those who will receive that grace.

The passage you referred to, Romans 9:22-23, is often cited in discussions about predestination. The verses read:

"What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory..."

These verses are part of Paul's discussion on God's sovereignty in choosing individuals for salvation. The "What if" language is a rhetorical device that emphasizes God's prerogative in demonstrating both His justice and mercy. While some may interpret these verses in a way that suggests God's ability to save all if He chose to, the broader Calvinist framework tends to emphasize the particularity of God's election.

It's worth noting that interpretations of these theological concepts can vary, and different Calvinist traditions may approach these issues with different emphases and nuances. Theological discussions, especially those related to predestination and salvation, have been ongoing for centuries, and perspectives within any theological tradition can differ.

 

[Taken]

The changing perception of hell. - How do you define it?

I picture HELL, as a physical Place Deep “IN” the Earth.

I picture…HELL, to have similarities, AS the FACE of the Earth;
High points
Low points (Pit)
Divisional boundaries (without power to cross or escape)

Water (gulf, lake)
Fire (powerless to escape)

Noise (talking, screaming, etc.)
Odors (putrid stench, sulfur odor)
Sounds (of discomfort, whaling, screams, groaning)
Visual (darkness, dreary, extreme unpleasantness)
Feeling (extreme heat, miserable)
Tasting (dry, suffer, thirsty, with no relief)

Temporary Occupants: (for 4,000 years;
Disembodied saved souls of human men, IN comfort, with the Tree of Life.
(Transported to Heaven)
Continual Occupants: (6,000+ years;
Disembodied unsaved souls of human men, IN utter discomfort.

Temporary Boundary, called Paradise.
Temporary presence, Tree of Life (4.000 yr) IN Hell.
(Transported to Heaven).

Where, at any given time, the Tree of Life IS located is called:
Paradise.
Tree of Life, ON Earth, Garden/Eden
Tree of Life, IN Earth, IN Hell, with Saved souls.
Tree of Life, IN Heaven. (Presently)with Saved souls.
Tree of Life, (shall be) again ON Earth, WITH: Saved souls, Quickened spirits and Glorified Body’s of men, whose first birth was out of the dust OF the earth.

Occupants (historically and presently)…IN divisional discomfort areas of Hell.
* Disembodied un-saved souls of human men
* Particular Fallen from holiness; Angelic spirits.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Tulipbee]

1. Immortal Soul and Eternal Death:
   • In Calvinism, there is a belief in the immortality of the soul. The idea is that after physical death, the soul continues to exist either in eternal communion with God (for the elect) or in eternal separation from God (for the reprobate). The concept of eternal death, as you suggested, aligns with eternal separation from God, which is considered a just punishment for those who reject God's offer of salvation through Christ.
2. Final Judgment:
   • The final judgment in Calvinism is seen as a future event when all individuals, both the living and the dead, will stand before God. This judgment is based on faith in Christ, and individuals are judged according to their deeds. The Book of Life, mentioned in Revelation 20, represents the list of those who have been chosen for salvation.
3. Universal Salvation and Free Will:
   • Calvinism generally rejects the idea of universal salvation, asserting that salvation is by God's grace through faith. The concept of free will is understood within the framework of God's sovereign choice. While humans have a responsibility to respond in faith, Calvinism emphasizes God's initiative in the salvation process.
4. Christian Conduct, Military Service, and Loving Enemies:
   • The issue of Christian conduct and participation in activities such as military service is subject to interpretation within Calvinism. While there is a diversity of views, some Calvinists may argue that Christian ethics should guide one's decisions, and engaging in actions contrary to Christian principles may be inconsistent with faith.
5. God's Love and Judgment:
   • In Calvinism, there is an acknowledgment of the tension between God's love and justice. While God is loving and merciful, His justice demands the punishment of sin. The concept of God's love includes warnings about the consequences of rejecting His grace.

It's essential to recognize that interpretations can vary within any theological tradition, and not all Calvinists may share the same views on every aspect. Theological discussions often involve nuanced perspectives, and individuals within a tradition may have different emphases or understandings of certain doctrines.