Surviving as a Christian business owner when targeted by LGBTs

[pom2014]

Did John refuse to marry the couple he denounced?

No.

Apples meet oranges.

I will ask you a very simple question.

God hates sin, why does he not withhold food from sinners?

Answer that for me.

 

[LightMessenger]

Where have I ever said I hated anyone? I have said and will continue to say that it is wrong for government or anyone else to violate another's conscience much less their religious values, regardless of the religion. Dude, you have gone totally "postal", and are incapable of carrying on a conversation regarding the merits of both sides.

As a Christian, if someone refused to serve me, I would go some place else.

The fact that you have so much animosity towards Christians who want to stay true to their conscience tells me everything I need to know. Would you exhibit that same animosity towards others that want to stay true to their beliefs?

LightMessenger, as I was thinking about your posts tonight, a picture of a radical Muslim kept coming to mind. He was threatening to behead someone and saying "submit or die".

This is figuratively what is happening when you force a person to violate their conscience. This is now what the government is doing on many levels to the American people. In a manner of speaking, "Submit or be destroyed", is the message they are conveying. You have adopted their message.

And why is it not surprising that you would be thinking about hate instead of love,axehead? That is your normal thought posture most unfortunately and that is very telling. I merely allow people's minds to expand and not be so narrow-minded and constricted such as to believe only what the far right-wing groups want to FORCE them to believe. That is the difference.

John the Baptist should of kept his mouth shut about Herod's brother's wife. Family affair, right? None of his business. How judgmental of him. After all they did get married. John paid a high cost with his life for telling the truth. Or maybe he lost his head for not keeping his nose out of other people's business and "loving" his neighbor.

Submit or be destroyed (lose your business, livelihood). Notice they don't try this with the Muslim community. I guess there are no Muslim gays.

The best manager I ever had is lesbian, married to another lesbian, of course. She also doesn't agree with the targeting of any particular religious group. She commented that normal people want a photographer for their wedding who is really into the wedding and she could not fathom forcing someone to photograph their wedding.

She also thinks there is an agenda today to force people (through penalties, fines) to change their beliefs.

Says there are plenty of photographers that would gladly do the wedding and do a great job. As a Christian I don't feel like everyone has to accept me and do business with me or else. My manager feels the same way about her situation. Thinks it's very draconian to use the law to force people to violate their conscious. Similar to Sharia law.

Because most churches are 501(c)3 organizations which means government has a "foot in the door" and can threaten to pull their tax exempt status, some states are concerned that the government will try to enforce on Christian churches that they should not discriminate and marry same-sex couples.

Tomorrow, Wed. April 22, the House State Affairs Committee will have a public hearing on HB 3567, that protects Texas pastors, churches and religious organizations on the issue of marriage.
The Pastor Protection Bill, authored by State Rep. Scott Sanford (R-McKinney and a pastor himself), makes it clear in state law that the First Amendment rights of clergy, pastors and churches in Texas apply to the issue of marriage. The bill ensures that the government may not force a pastor, a clergy member or church to perform a marriage or related ceremony that would violate their sincerely held religious beliefs.

Pastors and churches should not have to live in fear that the government will force them to perform marriages that violate their religious beliefs. With the Supreme Court set to take up marriage later this year, many faith leaders are now concerned about the threat of continuing government intrusion and infringement on these issues. HB 3567 makes it clear that Texas should remain a place where government respects the rights of pastors and churches to hold the Biblical view of marriage.

Regardless of whether that bill passes or not in Texas, a narrow-thinking Hate State, the Supreme Court is now just days away from hearing arguments about Same-Sex Marriage as you have brought out. And in June of this year they will issue their ruling on that which will be effective all over the 50 states and will, of course, trump and set aside any state law since the SCOTUS is Federal and their power supersedes that of any of the states. We shall see what transpires.

Did John refuse to marry the couple he denounced?

No.

Apples meet oranges.

I will ask you a very simple question.

God hates sin, why does he not withhold food from sinners?

Answer that for me.

You're correct again, pom! It is obvious that the far right-wingers of the crowd cannot answer that for you as they know that God loves everyone EQUALLY and without prejudice or reservation.

As a Christian owner you violate the second great command by not treating others as you'd want yourself to be treated.

That's a violation of a direct.command of the King.

You know that and I know that. But to those whose eyes are blinded by hate, intolerance, prejudice and discrimination, their eyes are so closed and sealed that unfortunately they cannot see the truth in what you are saying.

 

[Axehead]

And why is it not surprising that you would be thinking about hate instead of love,axehead? That is your normal thought posture most unfortunately and that is very telling. I merely allow people's minds to expand and not be so narrow-minded and constricted such as to believe only what the far right-wing groups want to FORCE them to believe. That is the difference.
I responded to you accusing me of hating, so does that mean you are preoccupied with hate? You act like it.
John_15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

Regardless of whether that bill passes or not in Texas, a narrow-thinking Hate State, the Supreme Court is now just days away from hearing arguments about Same-Sex Marriage as you have brought out. And in June of this year they will issue their ruling on that which will be effective all over the 50 states and will, of course, trump and set aside any state law since the SCOTUS is Federal and their power supersedes that of any of the states. We shall see what transpires.
We shall see, indeed. And, everyone will have two choices, obey the law or be destroyed.

You're correct again, pom! It is obvious that the far right-wingers of the crowd cannot answer that for you as they know that God loves everyone EQUALLY and without prejudice or reservation.
That's not correct! Just off the top of my head, Jesus said twice that He hated the Nicolaitans.

You know that and I know that. But to those whose eyes are blinded by hate, intolerance, prejudice and discrimination, their eyes are so closed and sealed that unfortunately they cannot see the truth in what you are saying.
You keep saying this is about hate and intolerance, I don't think so. Business owners gladly serve all people, so how can it be about hate or intolerance? You know what the issue is so stop playing naive.

I could turn this around and accuse you of being intolerant and hateful towards people's personal and sincerely held beliefs, but I won't.

You are a darkmessenger.
Luke_11:35 Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.

 

[LightMessenger]

And why is it not surprising that you would be thinking about hate instead of love,axehead? That is your normal thought posture most unfortunately and that is very telling. I merely allow people's minds to expand and not be so narrow-minded and constricted such as to believe only what the far right-wing groups want to FORCE them to believe. That is the difference.
I responded to you accusing me of hating, so does that mean you are preoccupied with hate? You act like it.
John_15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

Regardless of whether that bill passes or not in Texas, a narrow-thinking Hate State, the Supreme Court is now just days away from hearing arguments about Same-Sex Marriage as you have brought out. And in June of this year they will issue their ruling on that which will be effective all over the 50 states and will, of course, trump and set aside any state law since the SCOTUS is Federal and their power supersedes that of any of the states. We shall see what transpires.
We shall see, indeed. And, everyone will have two choices, obey the law or be destroyed.

You're correct again, pom! It is obvious that the far right-wingers of the crowd cannot answer that for you as they know that God loves everyone EQUALLY and without prejudice or reservation.
That's not correct! Just off the top of my head, Jesus said twice that He hated the Nicolaitans.

You know that and I know that. But to those whose eyes are blinded by hate, intolerance, prejudice and discrimination, their eyes are so closed and sealed that unfortunately they cannot see the truth in what you are saying.
You keep saying this is about hate and intolerance, I don't think so. Business owners gladly serve all people, so how can it be about hate or intolerance? You know what the issue is so stop playing naive.

I could turn this around and accuse you of being intolerant and hateful towards people's personal and sincerely held beliefs, but I won't.

You are a darkmessenger.
Luke_11:35 Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.

Quit being such a Fear monger. Few believe your inappropriate Scripture usage anymore that does not apply.

Succinct and to the point it behooves you to read this entire article and learn from it.

Who Says Homosexuality Is A Sin?
http://www.thegodarticle.com/allall/who-says-homosexuality-is-a-sin

 

[lforrest]

Did John refuse to marry the couple he denounced?
No.
Apples meet oranges.
I will ask you a very simple question.
God hates sin, why does he not withhold food from sinners?
Answer that for me.

As much as I disagree with you normally, there is something to what your saying.

We are to love our enemies, so that means we should serve our enemies. That is how you overcome evil with good. Be a slave to everyone.

Does this mean we should enable bad behavior? Absolutely not, but baking a cake is hardly enabling.


To all on this thread,
Please make no accusations about other members in violation of the rules.

 

[River Jordan]

Here's a thought...if you open a business to the public, you should serve the public. Unless you're refusing service to all sinners, then singling out one group of sinners and denying them service makes Christians look hypocritical, judgmental, and self-righteous.

 

[pom2014]

Jordan my point exactly.

Christians are to be the pinnacle of charity. Yet sadly most are no better than most secularists.

I blame old wine.

 

[HammerStone]

Regardless of whether that bill passes or not in Texas, a narrow-thinking Hate State,

Of course, this single issue defines the lives of everyone on the other side for you. I'm happy to see such complex and well thought-out views at work on both sides.

 

[lforrest]

I wouldn't want to be perceived as caving for the sake of money. It seems a good idea to donate proceeds to a family values charity.

 

[LightMessenger]

Here's a thought...if you open a business to the public, you should serve the public. Unless you're refusing service to all sinners, then singling out one group of sinners and denying them service makes Christians look hypocritical, judgmental, and self-righteous.

You have hit the nail Right On the Head, my friend! That's what I've been telling these holier-than-thou folks who think they have room to talk about others by singling out a group they dislike and then targeting them instead of looking in their own backyard first for plenty of sins they themselves have committed.

Yes, again I CONGRATULATE you for what you have said here which should be the way things should be done in order to be a good business person known for being non-prejudiced and non-discriminatory. However, fools will never get it as they continue to prefer bigotry instead of love and tolerance for their fellow man as Jesus would have them do. It is obvious that they don't try hard enough to be true Christians.

Are Christians “Holier Than Thou”? They shouldn’t be!
http://321.revivalmedia.org/are-christians-holier-than-thou-they-shouldnt-be/

“Holier than thou” is the slogan of the self-righteous. A “holier than thou” person curls their lip at the unwashed multitudes. They consider sin to be beneath them. They are apart from the masses and above reproach."

Of course, this single issue defines the lives of everyone on the other side for you. I'm happy to see such complex and well thought-out views at work on both sides.

The lives of those "....on the other side...." are being misguided by their pride and prejudice. They should live as Jesus taught them to live which is to Love their fellow man Unconditionally. If Jesus had meant for them to discriminate He would have inserted that into His directive but He didn't as that is not what He wanted for them to do. They have, however, chosen to go on the wayward path much preferring to follow bigotry and pride over Jesus' teachings. God cannot at all be pleased by that. But they will have to answer for that to Him at their appointed time. Of that there can be absolutely no doubt.

Jordan my point exactly.

Christians are to be the pinnacle of charity. Yet sadly most are no better than most secularists.

I blame old wine.

Exactly!

 

[HammerStone]

The lives of those "....on the other side...." are being misguided by their pride and prejudice. They should live as Jesus taught them to live which is to Love their fellow man Unconditionally. If Jesus had meant for them to discriminate He would have inserted that into His directive but He didn't as that is not what He wanted for them to do. They have, however, chosen to go on the wayward path much preferring to follow bigotry and pride over Jesus' teachings. God cannot at all be pleased by that. But they will have to answer for that to Him at their appointed time. Of that there can be absolutely no doubt.

I'm intrigued to know that the stance of a single 20th-21st century issue will define pretty much everything when it comes to the great throne judgment. I had no idea we had such an all-or-nothing God when it comes to grace!

 

[LightMessenger]

I'm intrigued to know that the stance of a single 20th-21st century issue will define pretty much everything when it comes to the great throne judgment. I had no idea we had such an all-or-nothing God when it comes to grace!

God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. He already knows about each and ever person and their shortcomings. It is obvious from what Jesus has taught us that Almighty God will be looking at the Loving acts we did while incarnate. He will also look at the evil created by men with hate for their fellow man. One will not be able to lie to God for what they did. He will be the final judge to judge both the living and those who have passed-on. So, I feel most comforted to know that true justice shall always prevail with God as our judge and in charge of things as He is.

 

[River Jordan]

You have hit the nail Right On the Head, my friend! That's what I've been telling these holier-than-thou folks who think they have room to talk about others by singling out a group they dislike and then targeting them instead of looking in their own backyard first for plenty of sins they themselves have committed.

Yes, again I CONGRATULATE you for what you have said here which should be the way things should be done in order to be a good business person known for being non-prejudiced and non-discriminatory. However, fools will never get it as they continue to prefer bigotry instead of love and tolerance for their fellow man as Jesus would have them do. It is obvious that they don't try hard enough to be true Christians.

Thank you!

Here's another thought....if we allow Christian business owners to discriminate against whoever they deem to be sinners, don't we have to allow the same consideration for business owners of all faiths? We don't live in a Christian theocracy, so whatever we allow one religious group to do, all the others get to do the same. I wonder how many people are thinking "freedom to discriminate because of religion" only in the context of Christians and gays? What about a Muslim bus driver who doesn't want Jews and Christians on his bus?

 

[pom2014]

I'm sure you'll find that many of these people are not for mixed marriages either.

Their intolerance signals a huge issue with the second great commandment.

 

[LightMessenger]

Thank you!

Here's another thought....if we allow Christian business owners to discriminate against whoever they deem to be sinners, don't we have to allow the same consideration for business owners of all faiths? We don't live in a Christian theocracy, so whatever we allow one religious group to do, all the others get to do the same. I wonder how many people are thinking "freedom to discriminate because of religion" only in the context of Christians and gays? What about a Muslim bus driver who doesn't want Jews and Christians on his bus?

You're welcome and you're exactly right, River! Most times unfortunately, the Christian community in its penchant to discriminate against others whom they perceive to be greater sinners than they are do not stop to consider the ramifications of their actions on others. It can indeed come back and bite them and hard due to God's law of "What You Sow You Will Also Reap."

And of course we need to allow other religions to impose the same rules and sanctions as Christians are doing for parity as this is not a Theocracy with a Totalitarian system of government where only one religion rules. Given that, it is therefore imperative to not allow any type of discrimination to occur. As to another religion imposing their views, such as in your example with the bus drive, of course they should have that same right to refuse bus service to whomever they want if religion is indeed going to be used as the prime and only consideration but it should then occur from both or all sides. It is only fitting and fair. But if there's any disagreement with that then no religion should push the envelope on this.

 

[aspen]

I think public businesses should be held accountable for serving the public - doesn't seem like the issue should be so complicated. Churches do not serve the public - marrying gay couples in the church is a totally different issue than providing services as advertised by big or small businesses.

 

[River Jordan]

Yep. Just as churches are still free to not marry interracial couples if they don't want to, they will remain free to not marry gay couples if they don't want to. As you noted, it's the difference between public businesses and private churches, and each are subject to different laws and regulations.

 

[HammerStone]

Actually, these issues are related, even upon the word of the Solicitor General.

If you'll noticed in the discussion the other day, Justice Alito point blank asked if the Court's decision(s) would affect the tax exempt status of churches, and this was the reply of Solicitor General Donald Verrilli:

“It’s certainly going to be an issue. I don’t deny that. I don’t deny that, Justice Alito. It is it is going to be an issue.”

Best to simply listen to the audio, but there are a number of news stories from various sources that cite this as well. It's much more complicated than some would lead us to think, and the legal decision will at least challenge the status, if not entirely change it.

And aspen, I am not sure your statement is true given the legislation that deals with regulations behind serving the homeless, etc. It's operation is certainly beginning to be treated as a public service. The problem is, how we define these things very much matters, because if a couple is bigoted for living out what their church teaches, then the church is bigoted for teaching it. In turn, no federal benefit should be given to bigots. This is the consistent logic of the argument, other community service be damned. And I agree, that this all-or-nothingness comes from the Christian side too (see WorldVision), but as they say, ideas have consequences. This is why it's not as simple as striking out man and woman and putting person, because there are ancillary issues. It's too easy to oversimplify that all Christians just wanna play holier-than-thou.

 

[River Jordan]

Actually, these issues are related, even upon the word of the Solicitor General.

If you'll noticed in the discussion the other day, Justice Alito point blank asked if the Court's decision(s) would affect the tax exempt status of churches, and this was the reply of Solicitor General Donald Verrilli:

You should read more of the exchange. It's much more nuanced that what you presented.

Best to simply listen to the audio, but there are a number of news stories from various sources that cite this as well. It's much more complicated than some would lead us to think, and the legal decision will at least challenge the status, if not entirely change it.

It's clear from the exchange that everyone agreed...churches will remain free to marry who they want.

And aspen, I am not sure your statement is true given the legislation that deals with regulations behind serving the homeless, etc. It's operation is certainly beginning to be treated as a public service.

That issue also involves religious organizations that receive tax money to perform charitable work. Basically, if you accept federal $$, you have to abide by federal law.

 

[aspen]

I understand your point HS. And I agree that boundaries will certainly be pushed by the state to infringe on church rights especially concerning tax exempt status. However I also think it is counterproductive to ring the bs bell every time it appears that homosexuals are demanding public recognition in the public sector - it adds to our reputation for being close minded and bigoted. More importantly it gives the appearance that we are crying wolf when a real battle comes up.