Surviving as a Christian business owner when targeted by LGBTs

[pom2014]

Churches should render unto government what is theirs and unto God what belongs to God.

The King, God, said this.

They rebel against God.

 

[aspen]

I just finished listening to podcast about a black man in Berkeley, who was told to leave a coffee shop where he was eating lunch with his white wife and mixed race child. The waitress accused him of basically being homeless and bothering the customers. After the man corrected the waitress, he started blogging about the experience and it turned into a constructive community conversation about race relations. The fallout included the waitress being fired and the coffee shop being labelled as a place of business that discriminates. I think this was the proper response (the man did not demand this response), but it was the discussion that really helped educate people.

It is unfortunate that we still act this way (even in liberal Berkeley) towards people and I am glad there is no credible group of people who are fighting for the coffee shop's rights. It seems to me that discrimination against all people by public businesses should receive the same attention and support.

The fact is, there is no couple who is morally worthy enough to receive service at that cake decoration business - think of all the fornicators, 2,3,4,5 marriages, and even polygamists the business has probably served without concern.

To serve the public, is to serve the sinner.

 

[pom2014]

Again it boils down to God will cause the rain to fall on the just and the unjust.

But these Jews posing as Christians would only cause the rain to fall on their own kind.

 

[newlife]

The question of course is whether we go along with the flow and violate our principles and support through verbal assent and through our actions (eg, baking a cake for a gay couple to celebrate their marriage) values which are not Biblical. Certainly it is less costly to go along with the flow. Right and wrong vary between cultures and change within a culture over time and are ultimately decided by legislation and in the courts. The age of sexual consent in New York State where I live is curently 17. It could have concerivably been 18 or 16 or something else. However it is currently 17. In ancient Rome and Greece pedophelia was considered morally acceptable and legal and was most common between adult males and young adolescent males. Abortion is now legal in the US whereas it was once illegal.

 

[aspen]

So what happens when atheist business owners decide to stop violating their principals and stop supporting Christian people because of their silly beliefs that are interfering with classroom science texts and whatever else they come up with?

Fundamentalists would be crying discrimination from the rooftops.

 

[newlife]

Another words we engage in actions which violate our Christian principles to avoid future inconvenience and to preserve harmony. I do however believe that many Chrisitians will accomodate to changes in popular moral standards

 

[aspen]

Another words we engage in actions which violate our Christian principles to avoid future inconvenience and to preserve harmony. I do however believe that many Chrisitians will accomodate to changes in popular moral standards

Nope. We come to the marketplace as equals not to lecture people on morality. Animals that are mortal enemies share the same waterhole because they need water. People share the same marketplace because we rely on commerce to live.

A business owner who offers the public a service, doesn't get to define who the public includes

 

[newlife]

We therefore elevate the marketplace and economics above our Christian principles.

 

[aspen]

We therefore elevate the marketplace and economics above our Christian principles,

If you choose to believe that sharing resources with nonbelievers is the same as approving of their moral choices, you are not only wrong, you better consider living as a hermit or starting your own theocracy somewhere else. If you continue to demand supremacy of your religion in the public places of America, you are going to end up perpetually disappointed, angry and eventually bitter; especially as Christianity ceases to be the majority viewpoint.

American is a country made up of people with different ideas and morality, who have chosen to live together.

 

[Born_Again]

If you choose to believe that sharing resources with nonbelievers is the same as approving of their moral choices, you are not only wrong, you better consider living as a hermit or starting your own theocracy somewhere else. If you continue to demand supremacy of your religion in the public places of America, you are going to end up perpetually disappointed, angry and eventually bitter; especially as Christianity ceases to be the majority viewpoint.

American is a country made up of people with different ideas and morality, who have chosen to live together.

Sadly, a percentage feel we can live together as long as you accept their viewpoint. Its nowhere near the utopia I think the founding fathers envisioned it would be. "All men are created equal" as long as you accept their agenda. Christians should always show love, mercy, and compassion. It was the business owners choice to do what he did. Did he make the right choice? Well I guess it's all in how you look at it. Should he have shared his talents with them even though they had a lifestyle he didn't approve of? Yes, I think so. Because it instantly validates the worlds view point on Christianity. It supports the perception that we hate anyone who is not like us and a true turn or burn mentality. Would it not have shown the message of Christ better had he still done the event? Heck, he could have even used the opportunity to maybe share a little testimony. So much of these issues come back to the prostitute the Lord saved from being stoned.

What she did as a profession was a detestable act and yet, when put on trial for it, Jesus stepped in and saved her. How can we give them the opportunity to be saved someday if the Christian world does not show love to those who have no salvation? Acts like these certainly do not offer the opportunity to show His grace and what a wonderful thing it is to abide in His love forever.

Matthew 25:40-45 New International Version (NIV)
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

Its in the scriptures folks... In red no less...
BA

 

[newlife]

These debates become repetitive over time. It all depends on your priorities. Early Christians lost their lives because they refused to worship the emporer alongside their God. Do we elevate the state, the current social mores, commerce above God? Do we acquiesce to the dominant ethos of pluralism and humanism? The choice is yours as to where you decide to draw the line. Christianity and its values are in decline and it will become increasingly more difficult to remain true to Christian principles and many will compromise. Does showing Christian love mean that you accept cohabitation, gay marriage the increasing crudity on television or engage in actions that signify your acceptance. I believe that there are many more changes in moral beliefs ahead-legalized prostitution, public nudity, nudity on television and various issues related to genetics to name a few.

Where do you stand?

 

[aspen]

These debates become repetitive over time. It all depends on your priorities. Early Christians lost their lives because they refused to worship the emporer alongside their God. Do we elevate the state, the current social mores, commerce above God? Do we acquiesce to the dominant ethos of pluralism and humanism? The choice is yours as to where you decide to draw the line. Christianity and its values are in decline and it will become increasingly more difficult to remain true to Christian principles and many will compromise. Does showing Christian love mean that you accept cohabitation, gay marriage the increasing crudity on television or engage in actions that signify your acceptance. I believe that there are many more changes in moral beliefs ahead-legalized prostitution, public nudity, nudity on television and various issues related to genetics to name a few.

Where do you stand?

All I am called to do is love God and my neighbor. Are you struggling to see the difference between worshiping the emperor of Rome and selling a wedding cake? Sounds like you are trying to stir things up with that comparison. Perhaps you are looking forward to conflict.

Allowing the existence of people who do not share your beliefs is not approving of their sin. Oh boy, I just realized this....you probably also believe that the silence and compliance of all those people who didn't fit into the 1950s was actually agreement with your beliefs.....wow.

If you do not like popular culture, get rid of your TV - I haven't owned one for over 5 years. Follow your moral code and belief system, but stop infringing the rights of other people to live their own lives

 

[Born_Again]

All I am called to do is love God and my neighbor. Are you struggling to see the difference between worshiping the emperor of Rome and selling a wedding cake? Sounds like you are trying to stir things up with that comparison. Perhaps you are looking forward to conflict.

Allowing the existence of people who do not share your beliefs is not approving of their sin. Oh boy, I just realized this....you probably also believe that the silence and compliance of all those people who didn't fit into the 1950s was actually agreement with your beliefs.....wow.

If you do not like popular culture, get rid of your TV - I haven't owned one for over 5 years. Follow your moral code and belief system, but stop infringing the rights of other people to live their own lives

Exactly! We are called to love and tell others about Him. Every man on earth is given a choice to deny or accept Christ. The decision is theirs and theirs alone. We should show them why it is the way with love and compassion.

 

[pom2014]

I'll say it again, if the shoe was on the other foot Christians would be hurt and mad if they were refused a wedding cake.

Honestly, I'd love to have it happen to each and every person that in Christian at least once. Even ones that agree its wrong to not make the cake.

We need a reminder that its wrong.

Burnt hand teaches best.

 

[newlife]

My intention here was not to promote confllict for the sake of conflict. However I believe that some of the views here needed to be challenged and reflected on. I think I have made my point.

 

[heretoeternity]

John the Baptist should of kept his mouth shut about Herod's brother's wife. Family affair, right? None of his business. How judgmental of him. After all they did get married. John paid a high cost with his life for telling the truth. Or maybe he lost his head for not keeping his nose out of other people's business and "loving" his neighbour

Submit or be destroyed (lose your business, livelihood). Notice they don't try this with the Muslim community. I guess there are no Muslim gays.

The best manager I ever had is lesbian, married to another lesbian, of course. She also doesn't agree with the targeting of any particular religious group. She commented that normal people want a photographer for their wedding who is really into the wedding and she could not fathom forcing someone to photograph their wedding.

She also thinks there is an agenda today to force people (through penalties, fines) to change their beliefs.

Says there are plenty of photographers that would gladly do the wedding and do a great job. As a Christian I don't feel like everyone has to accept me and do business with me or else. My manager feels the same way about her situation. Thinks it's very draconian to use the law to force people to violate their conscious. Similar to Sharia law.

Because most churches are 501(c)3 organizations which means government has a "foot in the door" and can threaten to pull their tax exempt status, some states are concerned that the government will try to enforce on Christian churches that they should not discriminate and marry same-sex couples.

Tomorrow, Wed. April 22, the House State Affairs Committee will have a public hearing on HB 3567, that protects Texas pastors, churches and religious organizations on the issue of marriage.
The Pastor Protection Bill, authored by State Rep. Scott Sanford (R-McKinney and a pastor himself), makes it clear in state law that the First Amendment rights of clergy, pastors and churches in Texas apply to the issue of marriage. The bill ensures that the government may not force a pastor, a clergy member or church to perform a marriage or related ceremony that would violate their sincerely held religious beliefs.

Pastors and churches should not have to live in fear that the government will force them to perform marriages that violate their religious beliefs. With the Supreme Court set to take up marriage later this year, many faith leaders are now concerned about the threat of continuing government intrusion and infringement on these issues. HB 3567 makes it clear that Texas should remain a place where government respects the rights of pastors and churches to hold the Biblical view of marriage.

 

[heretoeternity]

Good posts Axehead....sound like pom would like to deprive christians of their right to act according to their conscience, and denounce homosexuality and be no part of their "same sex" "marriages....someone should tell pom he can't have his cake and eat it too, according to the old saying...he professes to be christian, but sounds like and homosexual in sheeps clothing or whatever!

 

[heretoeternity]

As much as I disagree with you normally, there is something to what your saying.

We are to love our enemies, so that means we should serve our enemies. That is how you overcome evil with good. Be a slave to everyone.

Does this mean we should enable bad behavior? Absolutely not, but baking a cake is hardly enabling.



It is participating in their perverted lifestyle by recognizing their ":marriage"..., as if it were normal...you can love your enemies by trying to bring them to God, not by participating in their perverted activities!.

 

[lforrest]

As much as I disagree with you normally, there is something to what your saying.
We are to love our enemies, so that means we should serve our enemies. That is how you overcome evil with good. Be a slave to everyone.
Does this mean we should enable bad behavior? Absolutely not, but baking a cake is hardly enabling.



It is participating in their perverted lifestyle by recognizing their ":marriage"..., as if it were normal...you can love your enemies by trying to bring them to God, not by participating in their perverted activities!.

The wedding cake is a man made tradition. There is nothing Holy about a wedding cake, therefore there is not a moral reason to refuse this service. If pastors were being forced to marry gay couples that is another story.

 

[lforrest]

Most evil practices have their own name that is specific and different than the good thing that came from God and was perverted. What should gay "marriage" be called?