Teh Shack - Not my testimony

[Stranger]

I wonder if I can ' waffle ' on abit more and share the following.
I grew up believing that my grandfather was ' a pillar of society ' he stuck to the ' rules ' ect ect ,
At the age of 21 years old - I became pregnant , I was not married - but went on to marry the father - I felt I had let my parents and grand parents down- I had stopped going to church years before , and did not come to faith until I was 24 - so my guilt before God was not really felt for some years ) I remember writing to my grand parents apologising, neither of them said anything. My parents supported and loved me, but I knew I had let them down.
When my mum died five years ago I had a conversation with my aunty, she revealed something to me that made me so angry- my grandmother was in fact pregnant before she got married. The whole family knew, but no one said anything to me, no one came alongside - they let me think ' I was the black sheep ' of the family - reputations, inner guilt perhaps, who knows. Outwardly conveying one thing, while hiding things within.
Isn't this what happens with many who convey a ' religious outward life ' in public one thing, but privately no one really knows - yet God sees everything. My perception of my grand parents was based on ' what I saw , not on what I knew ' - that, to me, lays at the heart of religion- it's all about appearances.
Right I will stop now xx

I wouldn't be too hard on your grandparents. After all, what you describe is true of everyone to a degree. When you read the biography of a person, how much are you really getting of the real person? If a book can be written about a person there are books that could be written about what is not told of the person.

Not long ago I was watching a real life police show. A seasoned detective made a good observation. He said in every person there is their public life, their family life, and then their real life. I believe that to be so.

Stranger

 

[Helen]

I wonder if I can ' waffle ' on abit more and share the following.
I grew up believing that my grandfather was ' a pillar of society ' he stuck to the ' rules ' ect ect ,
At the age of 21 years old - I became pregnant , I was not married - but went on to marry the father - I felt I had let my parents and grand parents down- I had stopped going to church years before , and did not come to faith until I was 24 - so my guilt before God was not really felt for some years ) I remember writing to my grand parents apologising, neither of them said anything. My parents supported and loved me, but I knew I had let them down.
When my mum died five years ago I had a conversation with my aunty, she revealed something to me that made me so angry- my grandmother was in fact pregnant before she got married. The whole family knew, but no one said anything to me, no one came alongside - they let me think ' I was the black sheep ' of the family - reputations, inner guilt perhaps, who knows. Outwardly conveying one thing, while hiding things within.
Isn't this what happens with many who convey a ' religious outward life ' in public one thing, but privately no one really knows - yet God sees everything. My perception of my grand parents was based on ' what I saw , not on what I knew ' - that, to me, lays at the heart of religion- it's all about appearances.
Right I will stop now xx

Excellent post. And, as you say..show "religion" up for what it is.
We have the choice or Religion or Relationship.
But to most people, religion is easier and causes them to "look" the part.

.....H

 

[Willie T]

As some of you know, I spent 24 years of my life (until sidelined by a stroke) facilitating classes geared at readjusting the thinking of Sex Offenders. The mention of each of us living several different lives is SO true. It often took as much as a year to even get some people to see that they had done something wrong.

They knew it, but they wouldn't look at it.

 

[Truth7t7]

As some of you know, I spent 24 years of my life (until sidelined by a stroke) facilitating classes geared at readjusting the thinking of Sex Offenders. The mention of each of us living several different lives is SO true. It often took as much as a year to even get some people to see that they had done something wrong.

They knew it, but they wouldn't look at it.

So true society is in shambles.

I just watched an episode of 1954 "Father Knows Best" Robert Young, Jane Wyatt who slept in separate twin beds in the same room.

Their personal lives saw one marriage until the death of their spouse, no remarriage.

Young died at 91, Wyatt at 96.

The cinema, internet, social media, public education, governing laws, society, have come a long way from the 50's?

Accountability is gone, we are living in the last days of chaos, as the bible state the love of many will wax cold, good will be called evil.

Isaiah 5:20KJV
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

 

[Butterfly]

I wouldn't be too hard on your grandparents. After all, what you describe is true of everyone to a degree. When you read the biography of a person, how much are you really getting of the real person? If a book can be written about a person there are books that could be written about what is not told of the person.

Not long ago I was watching a real life police show. A seasoned detective made a good observation. He said in every person there is their public life, their family life, and then their real life. I believe that to be so.

Stranger

I was angry when I found out, I am not too sure how I feel about it now- never really dwelled on it long enough. I think I felt disappointed- I guess tapered with it was the reality that they were not the people I thought they were, and that takes time to adjust to. Yes, I agree that we are all like it, but that does not excuse the fact that they could have chosen to come alongside me in a different way. They thought of themselves, not me. Equally my own mum could have said something, my aunty just mentioned it within an ordinary conversation about her mum and dad , so I don't think it was a big secret within the family , just not shared with my generation. I don't think my grand daughters know I was pregnant before I got married, but it's not because it's a secret - and if one of them made the same choice and felt they had let me down in any way, I would come alongside them and share my own experiences. I learned from my wrong choices, and was always very open with my children about the consequences I had to face. With my own children I was open with them as teenagers because I did not want them to make the same mistakes - my daughter did but went on to have a wonderful husband and although her marriage is difficult its due to him being unwell.
However, I do except that there are things within me, within my life , that I have not shared - not because they are awful but because I talk to the Lord alone about somethings and simply choose not to share.
Butterfly

 

[Butterfly]

As some of you know, I spent 24 years of my life (until sidelined by a stroke) facilitating classes geared at readjusting the thinking of Sex Offenders. The mention of each of us living several different lives is SO true. It often took as much as a year to even get some people to see that they had done something wrong.

They knew it, but they wouldn't look at it.

Now that must have been one difficult job - and you did it for 24 years !!
How on earth did you handle what you knew they had done ?
Sorry about the stroke, you obviously did not give the job up because you wanted to- that must have been difficult
Butterfly

 

[Willie T]

Now that must have been one difficult job - and you did it for 24 years !!
How on earth did you handle what you knew they had done ?
Sorry about the stroke, you obviously did not give the job up because you wanted to- that must have been difficult
Butterfly

I get that a lot. To begin with, I have a very soft spot for children...….. I could probably have killed some of these guys if I let my head go in the wrong direction. In fact, when I was in my twenties, one of my first jobs was in our State's largest mental hospital. I thought I was handling things well until I found out one of the patients was actually writing a book about his "exploits." I knew the man well, and knew his book would have been boasting, not repentive. I just lost it and actually leapt a short dividing wall, and grabbed him.

Fortunately, several of the other aides pulled me off him. Also fortunate was the fact that things like that got quickly covered-up back in those days. I was given a talk by the Supervisor, but that was as far as it went.

But, I digress.

Many people express all sorts of concern about the children who are victims, but in truth, no one ever does much of anything to really keep them safe. I decided I wanted to attack this problem from the proper and sensible position...……… And I felt that was NOT to just punish or pass more stupid and useless laws restricting (supposedly) the movement of Offenders. And, to me, that meant dealing directly with the men (and some women.... more than you might suspect) who lived and functioned in our society, daily, with a foundation of "Faulty Learning."

To be frank, most "good citizens" make a big stink AFTER a child has been molested, and woof about "killing the Bas___ d!" But, they don't have the guts to make that happen. Thus, the Offenders are released right back into Society after a short sentence in a prison where they get no help, at all. And do we then help any? No. Actually we very often put more children into future danger through our stupid laws that really only make "us" feel better, and more directly, by the ways we treat these people.

I could go on for hours about this, but I will just stop for now. The senselessness of the way we stupidly and deliberately put our own children in further danger infuriates me too much to keep ranting right now.

 

[Willie T]

Getting back to the topic of this thread, I just realized no one has yet laid out much of a synapsis of the book:

This 248-page book tells the story of Mack (Mackenzie Allen Phillips), a father of six whose past is overshadowed by the pain of a difficult relationship with his father. The story is told as if by Mack’s friend, Willie. During a camping trip Mack’s daughter, Missy, is abducted, and her blood-stained dress is later found at an abandoned shack in the mountains, casting Mack into a deep darkness that he calls The Great Sadness. Some time later he receives a letter, apparently from God, inviting him to come to the shack. Mack makes the journey, and upon arrival he meets the three persons of the trinity. God appears as Papa, a plump African American lady who loves to cook; Jesus as a Middle-Eastern carpenter; and the Holy Spirit as Sarayu, a slight Asian lady who likes to garden. Mack arrives at the shack on page 80, and the following 156 pages detail a series of conversations and shared experiences between Mack and Papa, Jesus and Sarayu. During this encounter, a wide range of issues are discussed in varying degrees of detail. The conversations lead Mack through a healing process as he deals with the hurt both of Missy’s loss and his own childhood. The final twelve pages of the book complete the story in an unexpected way, and Mack discovers that his time at the shack, which seemed like a weekend, cannot have been more than a few hours, leaving the reader wondering whether it was a dream, a vision or something else. The story flows well and, although the conversations in the shack are often deep and thought-provoking, the book is not a difficult read. Young’s writing is technically far from flawless, and the story feels a little superficial at times until the point when Mack reaches the shack, but the end result is still an enjoyable, gripping and, at times, deeply moving tale.

 

[Helen]

Great and meaningful post here @Willie T

Thank you (and * Butterfly ) for sharing from your heart.
Our histories make us who and what we are today...and give us what is needed to go on and help others with the wisdom we have learned through the knocks of life.

Bless you...H

 

[Stranger]

I was angry when I found out, I am not too sure how I feel about it now- never really dwelled on it long enough. I think I felt disappointed- I guess tapered with it was the reality that they were not the people I thought they were, and that takes time to adjust to. Yes, I agree that we are all like it, but that does not excuse the fact that they could have chosen to come alongside me in a different way. They thought of themselves, not me. Equally my own mum could have said something, my aunty just mentioned it within an ordinary conversation about her mum and dad , so I don't think it was a big secret within the family , just not shared with my generation. I don't think my grand daughters know I was pregnant before I got married, but it's not because it's a secret - and if one of them made the same choice and felt they had let me down in any way, I would come alongside them and share my own experiences. I learned from my wrong choices, and was always very open with my children about the consequences I had to face. With my own children I was open with them as teenagers because I did not want them to make the same mistakes - my daughter did but went on to have a wonderful husband and although her marriage is difficult its due to him being unwell.
However, I do except that there are things within me, within my life , that I have not shared - not because they are awful but because I talk to the Lord alone about somethings and simply choose not to share.
Butterfly

If everyone knew all the truth about you or I, would we be the people they thought we were?

I remember years ago a Christian friend gave me his desk as he was moving away and couldn't take it with him. Later upon opening a certain slide drawer there was a cartoon taped to the side that showed a girl who was in love with a boy. And it showed her saying, "I love you for what the Lord is going to make you" That sounded good at first, but later I thought, what about the me now? What about the me that is not so loveable now?

I believe, my opinion, when push comes to shove, we as Christians all fail in many ways as children, as parents, as grandparents, etc. But that failure, never takes away the love the child, or parent, or grandparent has.

Every generation is operating on the way it has been reared. And so it responds in kind. They, just as we, are trying to do what is right. Yet in so doing by what they believe is right, they may offend. I think we all as Christians must endure offence against us, and hope that others understand this as well when we are the one in the offence. Because, like it or not, we will be on both sides of the coin.

Stranger

 

[Helen]

Good post @Stranger Very true and wise words.

 

[Willie T]

If we don't work at not falling for it, offense is inevitable. A friend once said in a book she wrote, "If you can be offended, you WILL be."

 

[Willie T]

In another thread, I offered a whopping amount of questions and comments I have collected concerning this book. Hardly anyone wanted them... and that is cool. But, for the few that expressed interest, I have now completed another project. I have formatted the entire book to MS Word so that it is completely "searchable." I have also included (within the text) page numbers that correspond to the pages of the paperback book (the most popular version).
Should anyone care for this, just give me a shout, and someplace to mail it to.

In the meantime, here is a couple of pages I tried to answer that a very popular critic wrote trashing the book:

Thirteen (supposed) Heresies in The Shack, a book written by Michael Youssef, addresses 13 undocumented, unspecified and unidentified concerns with the novel and movie, and what he thinks the Bible has to say about his mistaken assumptions:

Basically, he makes many “inventive” claims, but in all of his published lists I could locate, he stays far away from ever saying where any of his accusations are to be found in Young’s book. That should be a pretty embarrassing omission to anyone trying to rely on his “research.” Admittedly, he may have addressed more in his actual book, but I am not willing to support him by buying a copy.

1. God the Father was crucified with Jesus.
Because God’s eyes are pure and cannot look upon sin, the Bible says that God would not look upon His own beloved Son as He hung on the Cross, carrying our sins (Habakkuk 1:13; Matthew 27:45).
Yes, I know where The Shack says this in several places, and because of many other times in the Bible where Jesus and God are shown as one, I believe this to be true. Both references Youssef uses are bogusly applied. The first, in Habakkuk, even says, right there in that passage, that God DOES look upon sinners. In fact, that is the whole issue of what Habakkuk is complaining about.
In Matthew, Jesus is quoting the 22nd Psalm where it declares God never left Jesus. This specific point is stressed in other parts of the Bible also.

2. God is limited by His love and cannot practice justice.
The Bible declares that God’s love and His justice are two sides of the same coin – equally a part of the personality and the character of God (Isaiah 61:8; Hosea 2:19).
Youssef seems to fall into the typical religious trap of thinking “justice” is ‘getting even with humanity’, when the Bible speaks of justice as ‘making things right.’ Youssef, and many preachers seem to have a burning desire to make “fire & wrath” the major theme of the Bible. I see “love & forgiveness.”
The very act of Salvation is God making things right (reconciling) with man again through His love.

3. On the Cross, God forgave all of humanity, whether they repent or not. Some choose a relationship with Him, but He forgives them all regardless.
Jesus explained that only those who come to Him will be saved (John 14:6).
Indeed, He did forgive all of humanity. (John 3:16 kind of includes “all of humanity.”) And, His very words as He was hanging there, being murdered by “humanity”, people who could hardly be called ‘repentant ’, were: “Father, forgive them.” Much of The Shack centers on “relationship”… THAT is “being saved”, in Religious parlance.

4. Hierarchical structures, whether they are in the Church or in the government, are evil.
Our God is a God of order (Job 25:2).
Still, Youssef misreads the very words written. This conversation is conducted from about page 121 to the end of chapter 8 at page127 in the paperback book. I suggest you go read it, as it is too much to repost here.

5. God will never judge people for their sins.
The Word of God repeatedly invites people to escape from the judgment of God by believing in Jesus Christ, His Son (Romans 2:16; 2 Timothy 4:1-3).
Again, The Shack’s term for “saved” is deliberately being ignored. It honestly seems that much of the consternation directed against The Shack is due to not finding the identical, comfortable and expected “religious” words so many of us were taught to respond to. (Frankly, I think most of The Shack was written to avoid that Legalistic snare that has thrown so many people off course.)
In truth, the Bible says that we are ALREADY judged and condemned because of our sinful condition, and The Shack never says differently.

6. There is not a hierarchical structure in the Godhead, just a circle of unity.
The Bible says that Jesus submitted to the will of the Father. This doesn’t mean that one Person is higher or better than the other; just unique. Jesus said, “I came to do the will of Him who sent me. I am here to obey my Father.” Jesus also said, “I will send you the Holy Spirit” (John 4:34, 6:44, 14:26, 15:26).
Go read what I suggested in my answer to “question # 4.” Youssef is getting almost ridiculous in this. line of thinking.

7. God submits to human wishes and choices.
Far from God submitting to us, Jesus said, “Narrow is the way that leads to eternal life.” We are to submit to Him in all things, for His glory and because of what He has accomplished for us (Matthew 7:13-15).
I have to admit that I have no idea where Youssef ever came up with this from the conversation on pages 145 & 146. My guess is that, once again, he has gotten entangled in semantics, and is trying to make an issue where none exists.

8. Justice will never take place because of love.
The Bible teaches that when God’s love is rejected, and when the offer of salvation and forgiveness is rejected, justice must take place or God has sent Jesus Christ to die on the cross for nothing (Matthew 12:20; Romans 3:25-26).
Again, I searched and searched for this, but couldn’t find anything even close.

9. There is no such a thing as eternal judgment or torment in hell.
Jesus’ own description of hell is vivid. It cannot be denied (Luke 12:5, 16:23).
I think, once again, that Youssef is upset because The Shack did not preach “Fire & Brimstone.” Just the anguish of the scene in the cave where Sophia (Wisdom) askes Mack to choose which of his kids to send to Hell should dispel the obsession. (Pg. 161 & 162) And, Youssef does seem to have an obsession with wanting to be punished and beaten. BTW, neither of those Scripture references is a description of Hell, any more than “streets of gold” is a description of Heaven.

10. Jesus is walking with all people in their different journeys to God, and it doesn’t matter which way you get to Him.
Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life, and no one will come to the Father but by me” (John 14:6).
Something else that I cannot find in Young’s book. (Youssef seems to be fanatical about this “creative imagining” he engages in.) I believe he really thinks only those in America’s Bible Belt, and who pronounce a word, “J-E-S-U-S”, are allowed to experience the Savior of the world.

11. Jesus is constantly being transformed along with us.
Jesus, who dwells in the splendor of heaven, sits at the right hand of God, reigning and ruling the universe. The Bible says, “In Him there is no change, for He is yesterday, today, and forever” (Hebrews 11:12, 13:8; James1:17).
I am really trying hard not to call Youssef a flat-out liar on this statement. No such suggestion is anywhere to be found in Young’s book.

12. There is no need for faith or reconciliation with God because everyone will make it to heaven.
Jesus said, “Only those who believe in me will have eternal life” (John 3:15, 3:36, 5:24, 6:40).
This is such an absurd assertion that it doesn’t even merit addressing. Mack was even challenged to choose which of his children to send to Hell, and which to send to Heaven.

13. The Bible is not true because it reduces God to paper.
The Bible is God-breathed. Sure, there were many men through 1,800 years who put pen to paper (so to speak), each from different professions and different backgrounds, but the Holy Spirit infused their work with God’s words. These men were writing the same message from Genesis to Revelation. If you want to read more about the place of Christ in the Scripture, read “We Preach Christ” (2 Timothy 3:16).
Again, not in the book.

 

[Helen]

Great overview...
I will INBOX you with my address...it will cost you...as it will be international mailing to Canada.

Thanks.

 

[Willie T]

Easy folks. I will email all that I have, but unless it is just impossible to do it any other way, I really don't want to get into printing and mailing more than 200 pages to each one of you. Besides, I don't like the idea of anyone putting their physical address on the computer. Something like a G-mail account is no big deal, but do not ever send your actual address over the computer.

 

[Willie T]

Just wandered by the "Worthy Christian" forum. Someone found one of my old posts about The Shack, and jumped on the bandwagon to make sure I knew I was going to Hell in a hand-basket for seeing the book as something beautiful.

 

[Helen]

Just wandered by the "Worthy Christian" forum. Someone found one of my old posts about The Shack, and jumped on the bandwagon to make sure I knew I was going to Hell in a hand-basket for seeing the book as something beautiful.

Well at least you will have good company.

" .. when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee...."

"For our God is a consuming Fire..."

"For I the Lord thy God will hold thy right hand, saying unto thee, Fear not; I will help thee.."

God says , You are fine..I gotcha .

 

[Willie T]

Right now, poor *Davida* is over there trying to make fun of me that I didn't know "Mack" was a fictional character in the book.

 

[larry2]

Just wandered by the "Worthy Christian" forum. Someone found one of my old posts about The Shack, and jumped on the bandwagon to make sure I knew I was going to Hell in a hand-basket for seeing the book as something beautiful.

My daughter was pushing me yesterday to see that movie; she is renting it to watch a second time. With a testimony and loyality like that, she ought buy stock in the film.

 

[Willie T]

My daughter was pushing me yesterday to see that movie; she is renting it to watch a second time. With a testimony and loyality like that, she ought buy stock in the film.

I recommend the book much more highly than the movie. But, with either (and it is more evident in the book than the film) the important thing to come away with is the way Satan totally lost his grip on the doubting main character, Mack, and how he returns to God as a much more satisfied and solid Christian than he had ever been in his life.