Temples

[daq]

so according to daq the things written about in the Bible are all literal until the crucifixion of the Lord, then the rest of the Bible is to be taken as allegorical ?

John 4:21-24 KJV
21. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

So Yeshua once again does not mean what he says according to ENOCH2010?
According to ENOCH2010 the disciples did not see Yeshua ascend up to where he was before?
According to ENOCH2010 and Retrobyter the flesh is profitable and very good?

John 6:62-71 KJV
62. What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63. It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68. Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70. Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? [GSN#1228 diabolos]
71. He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

So according to ENOCH2010 Judas Sicarii-Iskariotes was but a man and cannot possibly represent the diabolos-devil?
So according to ENOCH2010 and Retrobyter the fleshmonger-betrayers awaiting a physical kingdom like Judas are good? :lol:

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, ENOCH2010.

so according to daq the things written about in the Bible are all literal until the crucifixion of the Lord, then the rest of the Bible is to be taken as allegorical ?

Brother, you're never going to get a straight answer. Why do you bother?

 

[veteran]

In reality I believe all the statements of Master Yeshua rather than cherry picking what suits any mindset-paradigm.
To deny these things as fulfilled in Messiah is to essentially say that he has not come in the flesh and the work is not finished.

Matthew 24:19
19. And woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days!

Luke 23:27-29
27. And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.
28. But Yeshua turning unto them said, Daughters of Yerushalaim, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29. For, behold, the days are come, in the which they say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck!

Now Yudas that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast. And forthwith came he forward and drew near unto Yeshua to kiss him. But Yeshua says unto him; Yudas, do you betray the Son of man with a kiss? And the son of perdition, Iouda Simonos Iskariotes, removed not his shoes; but stood in the presence of the holy place, in the 'adamat-qodesh holy ground which is in the presence of haSar tsaba' YHWH, and the desolating abomination betrayed the Son of man with a kiss, saying, Hail Rabbi Master! and kissed him . . .

Cherry-picking as you say, is exactly what you've been doing on this topic.

 

[daq]

Shalom, ajdiamond.


That's only because you fail to recognize it as a FUTURE, literal, physical, concrete Kingdom! These parables are not about the "now"; they are about the KINGDOM which won't exist until Yeshua` HaMashiach returns to be its KING! The ONLY parable in Matthew 13, Mark 4, and Luke 13 that's about the "now" is the parable of the sower, and even THAT is about the MESSAGE of the Kingdom that we are to herald, not the Kingdom itself. It's a MAJOR error and the EPITOME of narcissism to think that the parables of Matthew 13, Mark 4, and Luke 13 are about the present!

The Sower is a parable about the spreading of the message about God's Kingdom, the Kingdom from the Sky, not just any ol' message from the Scriptures, and certainly not about the message of God's justification of an individual that some call "salvation."

The Tares and Wheat is a parable about the infiltration of the children of the Wicked One among the children of the Kingdom during the whole of the future 1,000-year period and how they won't be "weeded out" until the "harvest," the Great White Throne Judgment.

The Kernel of Mustard Seed is a parable about the GROWTH of the Kingdom during that 1,000-year period.

The Leaven is a parable about the INFLUENCE the Kingdom will have on the world and its economy during the 1,000-year period.

The Buried Treasure is about the value one will place upon the Kingdom during that 1,000-year period.

The Merchant Man (not the Pearl) is about the value the King will place on His investments during that 1,000-year period.

The Seining Net is about the "harvest" time itself at the end of the 1,000-year period.

The Head of the Family is about the discovery of "treasures," new and old, in the house's storage "closet." This is about the Torah-teacher who has also learned to be a STUDENT of God's Word regarding the Kingdom. Not only does he have his old training (which modern-day Christians SELDOM have) but he is also learning the new, that is, the information that is new to his training that came from both the teachings of the Messiah Himself and the teachings about the Messiah since His death, resurrection, and ascension (which accounts for most if not all of the training that modern-day Christians have). THIS is the parable that practically DEMANDS that we learn from our Hebrew roots.

See what I mean ajdiamond? How can we have a serious discussion immersed in Scripture when one person says "this, this, and that, does not apply to myself or anyone else today; so you cannot use that portion of Scripture!" Being as it is, that such a one does not believe that the Matthew 13 Parables of Messiah apply to us today, it is appalling that he is allowed to go on crusades harassing those who believe that the Parables of Messiah absolutely do apply to us today; even more so unbelievable is that he gleefully continues wrecking threads that disprove his paradigm mindset while he himself does not accept the full Testimony of our Savior as applicable unto himself. How is it even possible to reason with such a one when he does not accept all of the Testimony of Yeshua? What will he say to Yeshua when he stands before him? "O thank you Master that your Parables did not apply to me"??? That is not only the "EPITOME of narcissism" (his own words) but likewise buffoonery.

Shalom, ENOCH2010.


Brother, you're never going to get a straight answer. Why do you bother?

Perhaps you should not have taught your disciples to ask loaded shotgun questions with their fingers on the triggers?
Perhaps then they might not likewise receive their answers in the form of loaded shotgun questions. :lol:

Cherry-picking as you say, is exactly what you've been doing on this topic.

Actually, no, it was not cherry-picking because it has already been noted herein where is the Tsebiy-Beautiful Land of the 'adamah-soil of Judaea, and what are the mountains that we flee into when the Assyrian comes in like a flood, and Mount Horeb the Mountain of Elohim, and Mount Olivet the holy Mountain, and Mount Zion in the sides of the north, and Har'El the Altar and Mountain of Elohim, and 'Ari'eyl which is the same. Those things were begun to be somewhat entered into on the first page of this thread where you decided it was appropriate for you to make sure that everyone knew I was a blasphemer and "bastardizer" of your presumed received imaginary Matthew 24:2-4 text. It is not that the above was cherry-picking but rather that you do not believe all of the information that is available or you would surely not ignore it in either your theology or eschatology:

John 17:12 Transliterated Unaccented Bible
12. Hote emen met auton {*} ego eteroun autous en to onomati sou ho dedokas moi, kai efulaxa, kai oudeis ex auton apoleto ei-me ho huios tes apoleias, hina he grafe plerothe.

John 17:12 KJV
12. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Transliterated Unaccented Bible
3. me-tis humas exapatese kata medena tropon. Hoti ean-me elthe he apostasia proton kai apokalufthe ho anthropos tes anomias,{*} ho huios tes apoleias,

2 Thessalonians 2:3 KJV
3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

John 17:12 ~ "ho huios tes apoleias" ~ "the son of perdition"
2Thess. 2:3 ~ "ho huios tes apoleias" ~ "the son of perdition"

Every man has his own scapegoat-twin Ioudas Simonos Iskariotes, (let the one seeing him again understand).

John 17:12 and 2 Thessalonians 2:3 are the only two places where the phrase "ho huios tes apoleias" is found.
Do you think that such as phrase as "the son of perdition" having been employed only twice is not a critically important fact?
The same is true of "bdelugma" which Yeshua speaks only twice in the Gospels, (Mt.24 and Mk.13 are the same occasion).

Mark 13:14 KJV
14. But when ye shall see the abomination [GSN#946 bdelugma] of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand), then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Original Strong's Ref. #946
Romanized bdelugma
Pronounced bdel'-oog-mah
from GSN0948; a detestation, i.e. (specially) idolatry:
KJV--abomination.

The Matthew 24:15 companion passage is the same Olivet Discourse and therefore the same occasion. The only other place Yeshua speaks this word is to the Pharisees in Luke 16:15 when he speaks of the bdelugma-abomination which takes place in the heart. After Luke the same word is not found until Revelation 17.

Luke 16:15 KJV
15. And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination [GSN#946 bdelugma] in the sight of God.

Likewise do you not think this is a critical doctrinal factor seeing how every man is designed to be a holy temple of his Creator?
Does it not matter to you what bdelugma-abomination means IN THE SIGHT OF GOD as the passage states above?

Matthew 24:15-19 KJV
15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination [GSN#946 bdelugma] of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand):
16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17. Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18. Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Matthew 26:30-31 KJV
30. And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
31. Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

Luke 23:26-30 KJV
26. And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus.
27. And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.
28. But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
30. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

Revelation 6:12-16 KJV
12. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13. And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Acts 2:14-20 KJV
14. But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15. For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17. And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18. And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19. And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

The above passages present an unbroken Scripture chain of events but you ignore the chronology presented within them.
Also it was shown elsewhere that Yochanan received the Revelation of Yeshua in the Patmos of Herod before he was beheaded.

 

[ajdiamond]

It's a MAJOR error and the EPITOME of narcissism to think that the parables of Matthew 13, Mark 4, and Luke 13 are about the present!

Hi Retrobyter:

Perhaps that statement does apply to me. But then again, perhaps, that statement applies to you. Jesus taught us a pretty cool secret at the beginning of Matthew 7. If you sat still and observed mentation and saw how judgments are formed in your mind, you would come to a deeper understanding of Matt 7 and how that man of sin works within you. The above judgment that you are quick to project onto me is actually a statement for you. It is telling you that because of narcissism you are making a major error. (It should be an alarm and a help for you, not a condemnation btw) (and it is not your essential aspect that is a narcissist, the man of sin within is a narcissist, and you are not that) He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
-------

Know ye not, that until one humble themselves as like a little child, one cannot know the kingdom of God? (Mat 18:4, Mark 10:15) Know ye not how impossible it is for a rich man to know the kingdom of God? (Matt 19:23-24)

Perhaps you can see how hard it is for a atheist scientist to know spiritual things? His mind is filled with theories and concepts and conclusions and a whole bunch of stuff that he believes to be true. And he chooses to stay with those mental ideas over spiritual things. Do you see? He is rich in that his head overflows in abundance with mental ideas of how things are. He will not know the kingdom of God until he becomes poor, drops everything he thinks he knows, and with a child-like innocence and curiosity look into spiritual matters. And so it is for each of us. We humble ourselves and drop all our riches--our 2nd-hand religious traditions and 4th-hand dogma and pastures of pet cows--and then we might know the kingdom of God.

The little child says, The kingdom of God is within me? What! How can that be! Let me go and find out if that is true or not.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, daq.

See what I mean ajdiamond? How can we have a serious discussion immersed in Scripture when one person says "this, this, and that, does not apply to myself or anyone else today; so you cannot use that portion of Scripture!" Being as it is, that such a one does not believe that the Matthew 13 Parables of Messiah apply to us today, it is appalling that he is allowed to go on crusades harassing those who believe that the Parables of Messiah absolutely do apply to us today; even more so unbelievable is that he gleefully continues wrecking threads that disprove his paradigm mindset while he himself does not accept the full Testimony of our Savior as applicable unto himself. How is it even possible to reason with such a one when he does not accept all of the Testimony of Yeshua? What will he say to Yeshua when he stands before him? "O thank you Master that your Parables did not apply to me"??? That is not only the "EPITOME of narcissism" (his own words) but likewise buffoonery.



Perhaps you should not have taught your disciples to ask loaded shotgun questions with their fingers on the triggers?
Perhaps then they might not likewise receive their answers in the form of loaded shotgun questions. :lol:



Actually, no, it was not cherry-picking because it has already been noted herein where is the Tsebiy-Beautiful Land of the 'adamah-soil of Judaea, and what are the mountains that we flee into when the Assyrian comes in like a flood, and Mount Horeb the Mountain of Elohim, and Mount Olivet the holy Mountain, and Mount Zion in the sides of the north, and Har'El the Altar and Mountain of Elohim, and 'Ari'eyl which is the same. Those things were begun to be somewhat entered into on the first page of this thread where you decided it was appropriate for you to make sure that everyone knew I was a blasphemer and "bastardizer" of your presumed received imaginary Matthew 24:2-4 text. It is not that the above was cherry-picking but rather that you do not believe all of the information that is available or you would surely not ignore it in either your theology or eschatology:



John 17:12 and 2 Thessalonians 2:3 are the only two places where the phrase "ho huios tes apoleias" is found.
Do you think that such as phrase as "the son of perdition" having been employed only twice is not a critically important fact?
The same is true of "bdelugma" which Yeshua speaks only twice in the Gospels, (Mt.24 and Mk.13 are the same occasion).

Mark 13:14 KJV
14. But when ye shall see the abomination [GSN#946 bdelugma] of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand), then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Original Strong's Ref. #946
Romanized bdelugma
Pronounced bdel'-oog-mah
from GSN0948; a detestation, i.e. (specially) idolatry:
KJV--abomination.

The Matthew 24:15 companion passage is the same Olivet Discourse and therefore the same occasion. The only other place Yeshua speaks this word is to the Pharisees in Luke 16:15 when he speaks of the bdelugma-abomination which takes place in the heart. After Luke the same word is not found until Revelation 17.

Luke 16:15 KJV
15. And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination [GSN#946 bdelugma] in the sight of God.

Likewise do you not think this is a critical doctrinal factor seeing how every man is designed to be a holy temple of his Creator?
Does it not matter to you what bdelugma-abomination means IN THE SIGHT OF GOD as the passage states above?

Matthew 24:15-19 KJV
15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination [GSN#946 bdelugma] of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand):
16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17. Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18. Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Matthew 26:30-31 KJV
30. And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
31. Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

Luke 23:26-30 KJV
26. And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus.
27. And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.
28. But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
30. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

Revelation 6:12-16 KJV
12. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13. And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Acts 2:14-20 KJV
14. But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15. For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17. And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18. And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19. And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

The above passages present an unbroken Scripture chain of events but you ignore the chronology presented within them.
Also it was shown elsewhere that Yochanan received the Revelation of Yeshua in the Patmos of Herod before he was beheaded.

I wasn't going to say anything to your attacks; so, I was reluctant to say anything to you at all. But, I looked at your last message and what you don't realize about your "unbroken Scripture chain of events" is that there is a cause-and-effect aspect to the chain. The TIMING of the chain of events is off. These are not just "links" that you should be looking at but "VECTORS!" I have used mathematics and modeling with vectors to determine electronic circuitry in the past and what you have built is a "perfect" structure of electrical components, but if you ran a current through your electronic circuitry, because the current would flow BACKWARDS in several spots, you would have a beautifully complicated PAPER WEIGHT for a circuit! a useless tangle of wires and components! By "getting the cart before the horse," you have nullified your argument! It would be like putting a diode in backwards!

When you're putting together your "unbroken Scripture chains," you need to ask yourself, "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" (Evolutionists will say "the egg." Those of us who know about the Creation will understand that it was "the chicken" on yowm chamishiy or day 5.) Your "chain of Scriptures" should also reflect a valid "chain of events!" The TIMING of the chain links determines which caused which. "The son of perdition" is NOT a single person, anymore than the "antichrist" is a single person! Regardless how many times a phrase is used in Scripture, if you link them together without the Scriptures giving you indication that they are SUPPOSED to be linked together, you have treated the phrase as a LABEL and are just as guilty and just as susceptible to error as anyone who links Daniel 11 to Revelation! Timing must be understood and maintained.

There are two things wrong with your reference to Luke 23:30: First, you have ASSUMED that it is the same phrase as is found in Revelation 6:16, and second, you have neglected the presence of the little word "begin-arxontai." Thus, you are also ASSUMING that they are saying the words "fall on us" and "cover us" for the same reason as in Revelation 6:16! YOU DON'T KNOW THAT! And, it cannot be determined by the context of Luke 23:30. To the contrary, there could be a NUMBER of reasons for crying such things! The one that comes to my mind right away, knowing the history of the time period, is that they cry this because they are going to be pursued by the Romans!

And, that little word "begin-arxontai,"meaning "they shall commence," indicates that it is not a one-time event but an on-going SERIES of events!

You're so busy trying to glean some sort of "spiritual" sense out of these Scriptures that you NEGLECT the Scriptures themselves!

Even your last sentence is a NON SEQUITUR! I said it before, but you refused to listen! WRONG YOCHANAN!!! You keep mixing John the Revelator with John the Baptist!!! It's the same sort of thing: Just because both are named "John" (or "Yochanan") does NOT mean they are the same person! TIMING, FRIEND, TIMING!!! With THAT kind of "logic," it's NO WONDER that you have so much of the Scriptures confused!

 

[ajdiamond]

btw, retrobyter: how does it work in your theory? What's coming? I don't need 800 bible verses. Just conversationally summarize in a paragraph or two what is coming.

The rapture happens and we are outta here; then the tribulation happens; then the literal, concrete kingdom of God comes to earth and we come back and live in it? Does that about sum it up?

Or if we don't want to go down the rapture path, is it accurate to say: one day in the future, Jesus returns. At that time, or shortly after, the literal concrete Kingdom of God shows up and we live within it.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, ajdiamond.

Hi Retrobyter:

Perhaps that statement does apply to me. But then again, perhaps, that statement applies to you. Jesus taught us a pretty cool secret at the beginning of Matthew 7. If you sat still and observed mentation and saw how judgments are formed in your mind, you would come to a deeper understanding of Matt 7 and how that man of sin works within you. The above judgment that you are quick to project onto me is actually a statement for you. It is telling you that because of narcissism you are making a major error. (It should be an alarm and a help for you, not a condemnation btw) He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
-------

Know ye not, that until one humble themselves as like a little child, one cannot know the kingdom of God? (Mat 18:4, Mark 10:15) Know ye not how impossible it is for a rich man to know the kingdom of God? (Matt 19:23-24)

Perhaps you can see how hard it is for a atheist scientist to know spiritual things? His mind is filled with theories and concepts and conclusions and a whole bunch of stuff that he believes to be true. And he chooses to stay with those mental ideas over spiritual things. Do you see? He is rich in that his head overflows in abundance with mental ideas of how things are. He will not know the kingdom of God until he becomes poor, drops everything he thinks he knows, and with a child-like innocence and curiosity look into spiritual matters. And so it is for each of us. We humble ourselves and drop all our riches--our 3rd-hand religious traditions and 4th-hand dogma and pastures of pet cows--and then we might know the kingdom of God.

The little child says, The kingdom of God is within me? What! How can that be! Let me go and find out if that is true or not.

Wow, oh, wow! Have you even TALKED to a little child recently?! If you told a little child that the "kingdom of God is within you," the child would smile broadly and say, "Heee! Heee!" look out the window and scream, "A PUPPY!" Then, he'd run off! Just like that, he'd leave you with your Bible in your hand, with a funny look on your face, and wondering, "What happened?"

He's not going to question you; he's going to BELIEVE you! He's not going to "go and find out" ANYTHING! He's just going to nod agreement and say, "Uh huh!" And, if he's going to be "checking out" anything, he's going to be jumping up in your lap and checking your pockets for candy!

<Sigh.> Oh, that my son was young again!

No, if you want to argue about checking things out, go to the "Berean chapter."

Shoot, I don't wanna pass ANY judgments; I just want to sit under my own olive tree and watch the world go by! Heck, I'm doing good just to figure out what ol' daq is even talking about! Too many profound statements lead to profundity! Y'know, a "profoundly deep place, an abyss?"

I stand by what I said about narcissism. ANY time one puts himself in the Scriptures without warrant, he's taking too much to himself. The parables of Matthew 13 are NOT ABOUT THE PRESENT; they are ABOUT THE FUTURE when Yeshua` has returned as King and brings His Kingdom WITH HIM!

Luke 19:11-28
11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
28 And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.
KJV

I just recognize that Yeshua`s Kingdom, when he becomes "Yeshua` haMelekh" (King Jesus), like Daveed was called "Daveed haMelekh" (King David) and Shlomoh was called "Shlomoh haMelekh" (King Solomon), will be reigning over a Kingdom like that of His ancestors! He was called "the Son of David" and "the King of the Jews," both at His birth and at His death!

Just WHAT do you think the term "Christ" means? It's the Greek equivalent of "Mashiach" or "Messiah!" It means an "Anointed (One)," and it is NO DIFFERENT than the anointing of His ancestors Daveed and Shlomoh! They were "anointed" or "rubbed" or "painted" with oil, which depicted the selection by God for a particular purpose. They were His representatives placed in the position of "king" to govern the Kingdom! Yeshua`, too, is God's Representative! Think of "Christ," then, as a term meaning "King APPARENT," like we use the term "president elect!" Daveed was God's "king apparent" LONG before he was actually made king by either his own tribe, Y'hudah, or the nation of Isra'el! He was originally "anointed" by Shmuw'eel (Samuel) fresh out of his father's field where he had been tending the sheep (1 Samuel 16:13)! He wasn't selected by Y'hudah to be king until he came to Hevrown (Hebron, 2 Samuel 2:3-11), and it wasn't until 7.5 years later that he was selected by Isra'el to be king (2 Samuel 5:1-4).

Notice that NOWHERE in the Gospels is Yeshua` called a "King!" He is ALWAYS referred to as "God's Anointed," the "Christ!" Only in the parables of a future time (as in the above passage) is it revealed that He will become King! Sure, you can own Him and obey Him as though He was already your King, but the truth of the matter is that He will not truly be King until HE HAS RETURNED!

Shabbat shalom, ajdiamond.

btw, retrobyter: how does it work in your theory? What's coming? I don't need 800 bible verses. Just conversationally summarize in a paragraph or two what is coming.

The rapture happens and we are outta here; then the tribulation happens; then the literal, concrete kingdom of God comes to earth and we come back and live in it? Does that about sum it up?

Or if we don't want to go down the rapture path, is it accurate to say: one day in the future, Jesus returns. At that time, or shortly after, the literal concrete Kingdom of God shows up and we live within it.

That about sums up the VERY BEGINNING of the Kingdom, but you have LOTS to learn about the Kingdom! As I've already said, the Kingdom is NOT a time of peace and safety for the world! It is, however, for Isra'el and her tributaries and annexed lands! The rest of the world will be gained by degrees, but it will be a time of CONFLICT and ATTEMPTED REBELLION, characterized by Psalm 2:1-12 and 1 Corinthians 15:20-28:

Psalm 2:1-12
1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3 "Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us."
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. ("Oh, boo hoo hoo!" )
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6 " Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: 'the LORD hath said unto me, <<Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.>>'
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him."
KJV

1 Corinthians 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For HE MUST REIGN, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

My "theory" doesn't exist without the Bible verses, but in a nutshell, we are already IN the tribulation-thlipsis. We have been since the first century A.D. It is simply a time of "pressure" or "distress" put primarily on the Jews but on ALL God's true people down through the last almost 2,000 years. Yeshua` is promised to come IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation-thlipsis (Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; Luke 21:23-28) and THAT is when He sends out His messengers to gather His chosen ones from all over the earth and from one end of the sky (the bottom of the atmosphere) to the other end (the top of the atmosphere).

I just gave you some of the proof for this in Luke 19, but Matthew 25 goes on...

Matthew 25:31-46
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the THRONE of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the KING say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the KINGDOM prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the KING shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
KJV

Note that He is NOT called "the King" for the goat nations! These are declarations that the King will make to NATIONS and not just individuals at this war tribunal. Notice that time and time again, the KJV uses the words "ye" and "you." These are PLURAL words in the KJV, the "thee's" and "thou's" being singular. He is talking to GROUPS of people - NATIONS!

So, it's time to zip up your smugness and BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURES!

 

[ENOCH2010]

Shalom, ENOCH2010.


Brother, you're never going to get a straight answer. Why do you bother?

Yep I'm done Roy, that allegorical stuff is above my pay grade. The Lord hasn't saw fit to show me what is to be taken literal and what is to be taken allegorically.

 

[daq]

Yep I'm done Roy, that allegorical stuff is above my pay grade. The Lord hasn't saw fit to show me what is to be taken literal and what is to be taken allegorically.

What you and your comrades do not understand is that if you are going to follow an eschatology that is literal and physical then you have to abide by the same interpretations all the way through Torah because Torah foretells. These things concern Torah and Law which is why Paul concentrates on circumcision so much. If you take circumcision as literal and physical then you must abide by the same interpretations all the way through the Law which is why the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes taught all things physical; and if you do this then you therefore have "fallen from grace" as Paul puts it. You cannot have it both ways including when it comes to eschatology. Either circumcision is of the heart and supernal or circumcision is of the flesh and physical, (indeed I myself was circumcised but now I understand that this is not the requirement for being a true son of Abraham as it is circumcision of the heart which is required; and the supernal requirement concerns neither male nor female according to the flesh, and true circumcision of the foreskin of the heart is likewise is found in Torah). If your interpretation is physical then all female gender mankind are already excluded from becoming children of Abraham in your doctrine. The same goes for all of the doctrines, parables, allegories, and sayings of Yeshua; either they are Spirit as he says or they are literal and concern the flesh and physical things. In the places where we read of plucking out an eye or cutting off a hand or a foot there is no mention of any allegory or parable but rather these are plain and clear simple statements. Thus you and your comrades need to go get yourselves some forks, knives, and saws, and get yourselves to cutting and chopping if you want me to take you seriously; otherwise it is yourselves that are cherry-picking what you want to believe as literal and physical.

Matthew 5:27-30 KJV
27. Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: [Torah]
28. But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Where is the allegory? Where is the Parable? Where is the clear explanation that this is not literal?
If you truly believe the words of the Master according to the physical as you say then get to chopping! :lol:

Matthew 18:3-11 KJV
3. And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
7. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
8. Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
9. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
10. Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
11. For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

When you come back having literally and physically plucked out your right eye, literally and physically cut off your right hand, literally and physically cut off your foot; then I will take you seriously about your physical and fleshly understanding of the sayings of Yeshua. I will still not agree with you and your comrades but at least I will know that you are serious in your belief system. In addition you also do not appear to pay any heed to what the Master himself has to say about the Law and Prophets; which statement carries the meaning of all prophecy having been written in the Scripture:

Matthew 7:12 KJV
12. Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

How is it that you and Retro believe things completely contrary to what Yeshua teaches concerning prophecy?

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Retrobyter,

The parables of Matthew 13 are NOT ABOUT THE PRESENT

But... you do agree (I hope) that we are not still waiting for the Messiah to come and slay the dragon? And if He has already slain the dragon, why is the kingdom 'NOT ABOUT THE PRESENT'? Do you think He is not yet the King of kings? If so, why is He sitting at the Father's right hand? On what terms was the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost?

John 6:15
When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. [hence = 'here']


The kingdom He received is not here in a physical sense - it's there! And it's very real. That's why He has to go to a 'far country'. That's the place our hearts are supposed to be focused. The kingdom of God comes to us personally, internally, not externally (except as we share it with others).

Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

 

[ajdiamond]

Retrobyter: If I read your conversational summary correctly, Jesus returns sometime in the future and brings the literal, physical, concrete kingdom of God with him.

Jesus began his public ministry with: Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. (Mark 1:14-15) Also, a large portion of his teaching recorded in the 4 gospels regards the kingdom of God.

If your theory on the kingdom of God is correct, why did Jesus bother devoting so much time to the subject? Why did he tell those hearers 2000 years ago the time is fulfilled, repent, the kingdom was at hand; when it wouldn't be coming for at least 2000 years? It seems if he brings it with him at his "second coming", he could just give us all a tour, or teach us about it then. Why go into such diverse and persistent teaching about a kingdom that was at least 50 generations away from his hearers?

No, your theory is error. It deceives and ensnares the sincere to wait for a future kingdom; rather than seek the kingdom within them here and now.

 

[veteran]

Several Bible errors made just on this page here by the above posters.

Christ's Kingdom is still in abeyance, still expecting. Overabundance of NT Scripture points that fact out.

Christ is not sitting upon David's throne yet today; He is sitting on the 'right hand' of The Father. Until Christ returns to inherit David's throne, which is an earthy throne, His Kingdom is not here yet on earth.

The Matthew 24 and Mark 13 Scripture, which is called Christ's Olivet Discourse because He was upon the Mount of Olives with His disciples describing the sign of His coming, is most definitely... about events of the last days leading up to His coming. That's why Matt.24 and Mark 13 are direct overlays of the events of the 6 Seals of Rev.6.

The timing Christ gave for His second coming and gathering of His saints is after the tribulation, not before it.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom yowm richown (A sunday of peace) to you, dragonfly.

Hi Retrobyter,


But... you do agree (I hope) that we are not still waiting for the Messiah to come and slay the dragon? And if He has already slain the dragon, why is the kingdom 'NOT ABOUT THE PRESENT'? Do you think He is not yet the King of kings? If so, why is He sitting at the Father's right hand? On what terms was the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost?

John 6:15
When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. [hence = 'here']


The kingdom He received is not here in a physical sense - it's there! And it's very real. That's why He has to go to a 'far country'. That's the place our hearts are supposed to be focused. The kingdom of God comes to us personally, internally, not externally (except as we share it with others).

Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Stick to the Scriptures. Yeshua` has NOT "already slain the dragon!" To the contrary, he is "walking about, seeking whom he may devour" just fine.

You need to understand that the dragon, haSatan, is not even chained or locked up in the abyss, yet! That won't happen until the beginning of the Millennium (which ALSO hasn't started, yet). Contrary to popular amillennial or postmillennial thinking, Revelation 20 still happens AFTER Revelation 19, which refers to the Second Coming of Yeshua`. And, Revelation 20:1-7 are about the millennium, the first 1,000 years of the Messiah's Kingdom (Luke 1:30-33) which are also the last 1,000 years of this age (2 Peter 3:3-13).

The dragon won't be "slain" until he experiences God's judgment on him in Revelation 20:10 just after his "little season" or "short time" (Revelation 20:3) and before the Great White Throne Judgment in Revelation 20:11-15.

And, YES, I do NOT think Yeshua` is yet the King of kings! He has not yet begun His reign, and He is certainly not the King of any other king on the planet, yet!

He is "sitting at the Father's right hand" because it is a place of HONOR! And, He is there WAITING! For what is He waiting?

Matthew 23:39
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV

This is a quotation from Psalm 118:26:

Psalm 118:22-26
22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner (capstone of the angle).
23 This is the LORD's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now (Hebrew: hoshiya` na meaning "save-us now" and transliterated into Greek as "hosanna"), I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD (Hebrew: Baruwkh haba' b'shem YHWH, literally meaning, "Welcome, the-Comer in-(the)-Name of-YHWH"): we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.
KJV

He is waiting for the JEWS TO WELCOME HIM (BACK) AS THE MESSIAH OF GOD!

You asked, "On what terms was the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost?" Yo'el (Joel), who wrote down the prophecy of God for us, said it this way:

Joel 2:1-4:21
2:1 “Blow the shofar in Tziyon!
Sound an alarm on my holy mountain!”
Let all living in the land tremble,
for the Day of Adonai is coming! It’s upon us! —
2 a day of darkness and gloom,
a day of clouds and thick fog;
a great and mighty horde is spreading
like blackness over the mountains.
There has never been anything like it,
nor will there ever be again,
not even after the years
of many generations.
3 Ahead of them a fire devours,
behind them a flame consumes;
ahead the land is like Gan-‘Eden (the Garden of Eden),
behind them a desert waste.
From them there is no escape.
4 They look like horses,
and like cavalry they charge.
5 With a rumble like that of chariots
they leap over the mountaintops,
like crackling flames devouring stubble,
like a mighty horde in battle array.
6 At their presence the peoples writhe in anguish,
every face is drained of color.
7 Like warriors they charge,
they scale the wall like soldiers.
Each one keeps to his own course,
without getting in the other’s way.
8 They don’t jostle each other,
but stay on their own paths;
they burst through defenses unharmed,
without even breaking rank.
9 They rush into the city,
they run along the wall,
they climb up into the houses,
entering like a thief through the windows.
10 At their advance the earth quakes,
and the sky shakes,
the sun and moon turn black,
and the stars stop shining.
11 Adonai shouts orders to his forces —
his army is immense, mighty,
and it does what he says.
For great is the Day of Adonai, fearsome,
terrifying! Who can endure it?

12 “Yet even now,” says Adonai,
“turn to me with all your heart,
with fasting, weeping and lamenting.”
13 Tear your heart, not your garments;
and turn to Adonai your God.
For he is merciful and compassionate,
slow to anger, rich in grace,
and willing to change his mind about disaster.
14 Who knows? He may turn, change his mind
and leave a blessing behind him,
[enough for] grain offerings and drink offerings
to present to Adonai your God.

15 “Blow the shofar (a ram's horn trumpet) in Tziyon!
Proclaim a holy fast,
call for a solemn assembly.”

16 Gather the people; consecrate the congregation;
assemble the leaders; gather the children,
even infants sucking at the breast;
let the bridegroom leave his room
and the bride the bridal chamber.
17 Let the cohanim (priests), who serve Adonai,
stand weeping between the vestibule and the altar.
Let them say, “Spare your people, Adonai!
Don’t expose your heritage to mockery,
or make them a byward among the Goyim (Gentiles).
Why should the peoples say, ‘Where is their God?’”

18 Then Adonai will become jealous for his land
and have pity on his people.
19 Here is how Adonai will answer his people:
“I will send you grain, wine and olive oil,
enough to satisfy you;
and no longer will I make you
a mockery among the Goyim.
20 No, I will take the northerner away,
far away from you,
and drive him to a land
that is waste and barren;
with his vanguard toward the eastern sea (the Dead Sea)
and his rearguard toward the western sea (the Mediterranean Sea),
his stench and his rottenness will rise,
because he has done great things.”

21 Don’t fear, O soil; be glad! rejoice!
for Adonai has done great things.
22 Don’t be afraid, wild animals;
for the desert pastures are green,
the trees are putting out their fruit,
the fig tree and vine are giving full yield.
23 Be glad, people of Tziyon!
rejoice in Adonai your God!
For he is giving you
the right amount of rain in the fall,
he makes the rain come down for you,
the fall and spring rains —
this is what he does first.
24 Then the floors will be full of grain
and the vats overflow with wine and olive oil.

25 “I will restore to you the years that the locusts ate,
the grasshoppers, shearer-worms and cutter-worms,
my great army that I sent against you.
26 You will eat until you are satisfied
and will praise the name of Adonai your God,
who has done with you such wonders.
Then my people will never again be shamed.
27 You will know that I am with Isra’el
and that I am Adonai your God,
and that there is no other.
Then my people will never again be shamed.

3:1(2:28) “After this, I will pour out
my Spirit on all humanity.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions;
2(2:29) and also on male and female slaves
in those days I will pour out my Spirit.
3(2:30) I will show wonders in the sky and on earth —
blood, fire and columns of smoke.
4(2:31) The sun will be turned into darkness
and the moon into blood
before the coming of the great
and terrible Day of Adonai.”

5(2:32) At that time, whoever calls
on the name of Adonai will be saved.
For in Mount Tziyon and Yerushalayim
there will be those who escape,
as Adonai has promised;
among the survivors will be those
whom Adonai has called.

4(3) 1 “For then, at that time, when I restore
the fortunes of Y’hudah and Yerushalayim,
2 I will gather all nations and bring them down
to the Valley of Y’hoshafat [Adonai judges].
I will enter into judgment there
for my people, my heritage Isra’el,
whom they scattered among the nations;
then they divided my land.
3 They drew lots for my people,
traded boys for whores (prostitutes),
sold girls for wine to drink.

4 “Moreover, what have you against me,
Tzor, Tzidon, all parts of P’leshet?
Are you paying me back for something I did?
If you’re paying me back for something I did,
then easily, quickly, I’ll pay you back
right on your own head.
5 You took my silver and gold.
You brought my good treasures into your temples.
6 The people of Y’hudah and Yerushalayim
you sold to the Greeks, so that you could remove them
far away from their land.
7 I will rouse them from the place where you sold them
and pay you back right on your own head —
8 I will sell your sons and daughters
to the people of Y’hudah;
and they will sell them to the men of Sh’va,
a nation far off; for Adonai has spoken.

9 “Proclaim this among the nations:
‘Prepare for war! Rouse the warriors!
Let all the fighting men approach and attack.’
10 Hammer your plow-blades into swords
and your pruning-knives into spears.
Let the weak say, ‘I am strong.’
11 Hurry, come, you surrounding nations,
gather yourselves together!”

Bring your warriors down, Adonai!

12 “Let the nations be roused and come up
to the Valley of Y’hoshafat [Adonai judges].
For there I will sit to judge
all the surrounding nations.”

13 Swing the sickle, for the harvest is ripe;
come, and tread, for the winepress is full.
The vats are overflowing,
for their wickedness is great.
14 Such enormous crowds
in the Valley of Decision!
For the Day of Adonai is upon us
in the Valley of Decision!
15 The sun and moon have grown black,
and the stars have stopped shining.
16 Adonai will roar from Tziyon,
he will thunder from Yerushalayim,
the sky and the earth will shake.

But Adonai will be a refuge for his people,
a stronghold for the people of Isra’el.
17 “You will know that I am Adonai your God,
living on Tziyon my holy mountain.”

Then Yerushalayim will be holy,
and foreigners will pass through her no more.
18 Then, when that time comes,
the mountains will drip with sweet wine,
the hills will flow with milk,
all the streambeds of Y’hudah will run with water,
and a spring will flow from the house of Adonai
to water the Sheetim Valley.

19 But Egypt will be desolate
and Edom a desert waste,
because of the violence done to the people of Y’hudah,
because they shed innocent blood in their land.

20 Y’hudah will be inhabited forever,
Yerushalayim through all generations.
21 “I will cleanse them of bloodguilt
which I have not yet cleansed,”
for Adonai is living in Tziyon.
CJB

And, Peter said this:


Acts 2:14-36
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord (Master) and Christ (Messiah).
KJV


Thus, this was a FORETASTE, a DOWN PAYMENT of the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) to PROVE to "all the house of Isra'el" that Yeshua` was not only God's Choice, God's Messiah, to be Isra'el's King, but He also raised Him from the dead to show that there's not stopping or thwarting of God's plan!

Yeshua` Himself said,

Acts 1:1-5

1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
KJV


...empowering them to be His emissaries to Yerushalayim, the Land of Y'hudah, the Land of Shomrown (Samaria), and to the farthest coasts of the world!

It was not a proof that He had come; it was a proof that His DISCIPLES were proclaiming the right message! It was GOD'S VERIFICATION - HIS STAMP OF APPROVAL - ON THEIR MESSAGE! However, NONE of the prophecies in Yo'el's message have come true, yet, other than this down payment.

NT:728 arrhaboon (ar-hrab-ohn'); of Hebrew origin [OT:6162]; a pledge, i.e. part of the purchase-money or property given in advance as security for the rest:
KJV - earnest.

OT:6162 `arabown (ar-aw-bone'); from OT:6148 (in the sense of exchange); a pawn (given as security):
KJV - pledge.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

2 Corinthians 1:18-22
18 But as God is true, our word toward you was not yea and nay.
19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen (Hebrew for "Truth"), unto the glory of God by us.
21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest (Greek: arrhaboon = a pledge, security, down payment) of the Spirit in our hearts.
KJV

2 Corinthians 5:1-11
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest (Greek: arrhaboon = a pledge, security, down payment) of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
KJV

Ephesians 1:10-14
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
KJV

They were (and we are) SEALED with the promised Ruach haQodesh!

John 6:15 merely shows the WISDOM of the Messiah! If you read the Gospels carefully, you will see that His mission was to work one-on-one with people, and He was supposed to be WILLINGLY RECEIVED to be their KING! What they were trying to do in John 6:15 was to make Him their PUPPET! He was NOT ABOUT TO LET THEM "use" Him as though He belonged to them! THEY were to be HIS SUBJECTS, not the PUPPETEERS, as though HE had to answer to THEM!

The key word in both John 8:23 and 18:36 is "WORLD." That's not the same thing as the "EARTH!" The "world" is the Greek word "kosmos" meaning a "world-SYSTEM," referring mostly to the political system of government among human beings! It does NOT mean that His Kingdom is OFF-WORLD or off the earth! He was saying that His Kingdom is not of the common political greed, ambition, and intrigue! It is totally different in kind!

You said, "The kingdom He received is not here in a physical sense - it's there! And it's very real." And, I would agree with you if you meant "here NOW" and "THEN" instead of "here" and "there!" The Kingdom is NOT here now; it is THEN, i.e., WHEN HE RETURNS! The Kingdom doesn't come to us "internally and personally," which translates to "individually" and "one at a time!" That is NOT how the prophecies read!

The Kingdom of God, brought by the King, will arrive "globally" and "publicly!" It will be at one time and a single event.

Finally, "en doxee" in Colossians 3:4, a form of doxa, does NOT use "glory" as a PLACE; it's a DESCRIPTION! It's HOW HE ARRIVES!!! He arrives in HONOR!


NT:1391 doxa (dox'-ah); from the base of NT:1380; glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literal or figurative, objective or subjective):
KJV - dignity, glory (-ious), honour, praise, worship.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Shalom, ajdiamond.

Retrobyter: If I read your conversational summary correctly, Jesus returns sometime in the future and brings the literal, physical, concrete kingdom of God with him.

Jesus began his public ministry with: Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. (Mark 1:14-15) Also, a large portion of his teaching recorded in the 4 gospels regards the kingdom of God.

If your theory on the kingdom of God is correct, why did Jesus bother devoting so much time to the subject? Why did he tell those hearers 2000 years ago the time is fulfilled, repent, the kingdom was at hand; when it wouldn't be coming for at least 2000 years? It seems if he brings it with him at his "second coming", he could just give us all a tour, or teach us about it then. Why go into such diverse and persistent teaching about a kingdom that was at least 50 generations away from his hearers?

No, your theory is error. It deceives and ensnares the sincere to wait for a future kingdom; rather than seek the kingdom within them here and now.

Yes, you're absolutely right about Yeshua` beginning His OFFER OF THE KINGDOM (not just a "public ministry") in the Galiyl; however, it is an error to think that the offer was ACCEPTED by the Jews! The time HAD BEEN FULFILLED, and He DID herald the good news about the Kingdom, but they refused to make Him their King. Instead, they CRUCIFIED Him, but that was expected by God and within God's PLAN, for God left prophetic clues that they would do JUST THAT! However, the offer of the Kingdom HAD to be given, and it had to be a LEGITIMATE OFFER! IF they had accepted Him, He would have given them the Kingdom. The Kingdom was LITERALLY "at hand" - "within their grasp" - but they FAILED to grasp it - to claim it!

But, they refused the Kingdom (by refusing the King) and He ascended away from the earth, taking the Kingdom offer with Him! That, too, was part of God's PLAN because, through Isra'el's blindness, the Gentiles were grafted into His Olive Tree! However, PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THIS PASSAGE IN ROMANS 11:

Romans 11:11-16
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to PROVOKE them to JEALOUSY.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their FULNESS?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but LIFE FROM THE DEAD (THE RESURRECTION)?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also HOLY: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
KJV

Also, later on Paul adds...

Romans 11:25-29
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so ALL ISRAEL shall be saved (rescued): as it is written, "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness FROM JACOB:" (Isaiah 59:20; Psalm 14:7)
27 "For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." (Isaiah 27:9; Jeremiah 31:31-34)
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the ELECTION, they are BELOVED for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are WITHOUT REPENTANCE. (I.e., God doesn't CHANGE HIS MIND or ALTER HIS GIFTS AND CALLING!)
KJV

The New Covenant IS when He takes away their sins (vs. 27), which He hasn't done, yet!

Ironically, when people today say that "the kingdom is within," they are DEMONSTRATING that they are "ignorant of this mystery!" Therefore, they are "wise in their own conceits," ignorantly accepting (ignoring the fact) that "blindness IN PART is happened to Israel, UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in!"

Now, Yeshua` was indeed enlisting people for His group of disciples and emissaries and encouraging His people, the Hebrews - ALL the Hebrews, including the Samaritans - the lost sheep of the house of Isra'el - to accept Him as their King, but the elders of Y'hudah (Judah) would NOT guide the people in the right direction, the way they should go. And now, God freely accepts both Hebrews and Gentiles into His Son's family to become subjects of His Kingdom, training them even to be kings and priests, but that should NOT be mistaken for being IN His Kingdom now! As I've said before, we can own Him as our King right now, but that does NOT mean that we're IN His Kingdom right now. We can treat ourselves as future subjects of the Kingdom even though the Kingdom has not yet arrived!

Consider for a moment some of that training to be kings and priests: One of the jobs of a king is to be a judge. In the Isra'eli Kingdom of Daveed and Shlomoh, people would come to the king as a final authority on the judgment of a matter. He was their "supreme court." There were lesser judges who handled the more mundane, everyday matters, but if the judgment was difficult or if its importance reflected on the children of Isra'el, the matter was escalated to the king. Shlomoh (Solomon) was FAMOUS throughout the surrounding countries for his wisdom (God's wisdom IN him), and yet, Yeshua` said a wiser was among them while He was here! Now, look at 1 Corinthians:

1 Corinthians 5:9-6:12
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle (a letter) not to company with fornicators (anyone who has sex outside of marriage):
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world (become hermits or monks).
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without (outside the family)? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without (outside) GOD judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
2 Do ye not know that the saints SHALL JUDGE the world? and if the world SHALL BE JUDGED by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we SHALL JUDGE angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded (cheated)?
8 Nay, YE do wrong, and defraud (cheat), and that YOUR BRETHREN.
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous SHALL NOT INHERIT the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such WERE some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient (timely, wise in timing): all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
KJV

Are you noticing the FUTURE TENSE in the underlined portions above?

You said, "No, your theory is error. It deceives and ensnares the sincere to wait for a future kingdom; rather than seek the kingdom within them here and now."

A person can be sincere (honest, literally, a sculpture "without wax"), but he can also be SINCERELY WRONG! Sincerity is insufficient to be right. My "theory," as you call it, is not in error; it follows ALL the Scriptures I've noted here. What IS deceptive is settling for a weak, incomplete "kingdom within" when the REAL KINGDOM, in the Person of the KING, is coming soon!

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Retrobyter,

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to PROVOKE them to JEALOUSY.

I have often wondered if Paul regretted writing this particular sentence when he began to see how Jews and Israelites use it to justify their unbelief.

Do you think God had forgotten what He said to Eve in Genesis 3, or to Abram when He cut the covenant with him, or to the shepherds when the angels announced Messiah's birth? Personally, I don't think He had.

Another question: when Zacharias was made dumb for longer than the length of Elisabeth's pregnancy, don't you think that was a testimony of God's willingness to communicate again with Israel, to say nothing of the prophecies of the two pregnant women and Zacharias' own prophecy once he could speak again.

And then we have John Baptist, and the disciples of John Baptist, all watching for Messiah - and they were not the only people watching for him. (And of course, the devil was watcing for Him too, to see if he could destroy Him and take His throne and crown.)


Are you catching my drift?


I have had numerous 'disagreements' with posters in forums, but your persistence is astonishing. What's more astonishing, is the longevity of your failure to understand what daq would call 'the supernal' interpretation of God's words. I hope you are not simply following a party line, because it would be a big mistake to take comfort and assurance from the number of people who agree with you. They could all be all wrong - although being wrong is not necessarily the end. There is always the possibility of leaving behind every point of faulty theologyto adopt the doctrines of God.


What is the kingdom of heaven? Jesus said it was near.

How was it near, and is it still near, or is it a thing of the past?

Can you be 'in' the kingdom of heaven, without 'the kingdom of God' being 'within you?

 

[daq]

Shabbat shalom, ajdiamond.

Wow, oh, wow! Have you even TALKED to a little child recently?! If you told a little child that the "kingdom of God is within you," the child would smile broadly and say, "Heee! Heee!" look out the window and scream, "A PUPPY!" Then, he'd run off! Just like that, he'd leave you with your Bible in your hand, with a funny look on your face, and wondering, "What happened?"

He's not going to question you; he's going to BELIEVE you! He's not going to "go and find out" ANYTHING! He's just going to nod agreement and say, "Uh huh!" And, if he's going to be "checking out" anything, he's going to be jumping up in your lap and checking your pockets for candy!

<Sigh.> Oh, that my son was young again!

What IS deceptive is settling for a weak, incomplete "kingdom within" when the REAL KINGDOM, in the Person of the KING, is coming soon!

Hi Retrobyter,


I have often wondered if Paul regretted writing this particular sentence when he began to see how Jews and Israelites use it to justify their unbelief.

Do you think God had forgotten what He said to Eve in Genesis 3, or to Abram when He cut the covenant with him, or to the shepherds when the angels announced Messiah's birth? Personally, I don't think He had.

Another question: when Zacharias was made dumb for longer than the length of Elisabeth's pregnancy, don't you think that was a testimony of God's willingness to communicate again with Israel, to say nothing of the prophecies of the two pregnant women and Zacharias' own prophecy once he could speak again.

And then we have John Baptist, and the disciples of John Baptist, all watching for Messiah - and they were not the only people watching for him. (And of course, the devil was watcing for Him too, to see if he could destroy Him and take His throne and crown.)


Are you catching my drift?


I have had numerous 'disagreements' with posters in forums, but your persistence is astonishing. What's more astonishing, is the longevity of your failure to understand what daq would call 'the supernal' interpretation of God's words. I hope you are not simply following a party line, because it would be a big mistake to take comfort and assurance from the number of people who agree with you. They could all be all wrong - although being wrong is not necessarily the end. There is always the possibility of leaving behind every point of faulty theologyto adopt the doctrines of God.


What is the kingdom of heaven? Jesus said it was near.

How was it near, and is it still near, or is it a thing of the past?

Can you be 'in' the kingdom of heaven, without 'the kingdom of God' being 'within you?

The Kingdom of God is so close that little baby Retro has no clue.

Isaiah 11:8-10 KJV
8. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
10. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Yet one of these days little baby Retro is going to go too far, (if he has not done so already) and I know from experience that he will take the keys to his own dominion and open up his pit, wherein is locked up a destroyer from his old man days, and the sky and the air about him will be darkened with the smoke like the smoke of the great furnace of Egypt; and from the smoke will come the legions of the locusts of his doctrines.

Then shall we see who will become a son of the Kingdom! :lol:
And all the holy ones will know whether or not he overcame in his appointed time.

 

[ajdiamond]

For those who came up in religious Christianity and who now know that the kingdom of God is within them (not just believing a new doctrine about it, but knowing by experience), we can recall how similar we were to Retro and can be grace to him and cut him some slack.

It's the same struggle that's been happening for 1000's of years for any human that seeks out spirituality. Their natural mind, which is enmity against the Father and cannot know spiritual things, will always lead them into the exoteric ritual. They will be led by their sensuous, egoic mind to choose and play mentally with the symbols for truth, rather than experience the truth for themselves. That is why one must repent (metanoia, 'change of mind') to know that the kingdom of God is within them. And how can one repent, if they don't know what that is?

And yes, it's very hard. When you have conclusion built upon idea built upon theory built upon tradition built upon interpretation built upon belief built upon dogma, when you see one of those little thoughts to be error, it can lead you to see another of those thoughts to be wrong and pretty soon the whole mental house of cards, that thing you've built up over years and years, can come crashing down. No, it's easier to not see truth, lest all you have built in your head be seen as illusion and you be thought a fool.

When one's identity is so wrapped up in believing a certain way, to see anything else would be the death of that identity. And then, we unconsciously go into self-preservation mode to protect ourselves and keep that identity intact. That is why Jesus said one must lay down one's life (that which they falsely identify with) and that one must deny his self (Mat 16:24) (that identification with a false self), then one might know what it is to be a child of God.

This is all apparent when one knows thyself. There is an old, old proverb that says, The kingdom of heaven is within you; and whosoever shall know himself shall find it.

What is the kingdom of heaven? Jesus said it was near.

How was it near, and is it still near, or is it a thing of the past?

Can you be 'in' the kingdom of heaven, without 'the kingdom of God' being 'within you?

Yes, yes! This is another approach to take. Are the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God talking about the same thing? Are they just two different phrases for the same thing? If the kingdom of God is within me, is the kingdom of heaven within me too? Wait, what!?!?! h34r:

Matt 3:2--And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mark 1:15--And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye

Matt 13:33--Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
Luke 13:20-21--And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Matt 13:31-32--Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
Mark 4:30-32--And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it? It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth: But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.

Matt 11:11--Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Luke 7:28--For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

Matt 18:3--And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Luke 18:17--Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

...and there's many more.

But, but, but...wait. But...But... :lol:

Get out of your head. Be still Let all the mentation pass like clouds in the sky. You are not the clouds. Let them go. Be still and know whether or not the kingdom is within you. It's not about believing a new doctrine. It's about knowing whether it is true or not. And there's only one Way to know that. Go and find out. Seek and you shall find. Knock and it shall be opened to you.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, dragonfly.

Hi Retrobyter,


I have often wondered if Paul regretted writing this particular sentence when he began to see how Jews and Israelites use it to justify their unbelief.

Do you think God had forgotten what He said to Eve in Genesis 3, or to Abram when He cut the covenant with him, or to the shepherds when the angels announced Messiah's birth? Personally, I don't think He had.

Another question: when Zacharias was made dumb for longer than the length of Elisabeth's pregnancy, don't you think that was a testimony of God's willingness to communicate again with Israel, to say nothing of the prophecies of the two pregnant women and Zacharias' own prophecy once he could speak again.

And then we have John Baptist, and the disciples of John Baptist, all watching for Messiah - and they were not the only people watching for him. (And of course, the devil was watcing for Him too, to see if he could destroy Him and take His throne and crown.)


Are you catching my drift?


I have had numerous 'disagreements' with posters in forums, but your persistence is astonishing. What's more astonishing, is the longevity of your failure to understand what daq would call 'the supernal' interpretation of God's words. I hope you are not simply following a party line, because it would be a big mistake to take comfort and assurance from the number of people who agree with you. They could all be all wrong - although being wrong is not necessarily the end. There is always the possibility of leaving behind every point of faulty theologyto adopt the doctrines of God.


What is the kingdom of heaven? Jesus said it was near.

How was it near, and is it still near, or is it a thing of the past?

Can you be 'in' the kingdom of heaven, without 'the kingdom of God' being 'within you?

LOL! Most Jews and Isra'elites don't even READ the NT! They wouldn't even BOTHER to "justify their belief" with words written in Romans! I've NEVER said that God hasn't tried to communicate with His people Isra'el, but a CONVERSATION requires TWO-WAY communication. Hard to do with someone who has the "spirit of slumber."

However, that "spirit of slumber" was not put upon them until AFTER they were left "desolate" in Matthew 23:38; so, reminders of the Messiah's birth announced by the messengers, the speechlessness of Z'kharyahu, and Yochanan the Immerser's watching for the Messiah, and the prophecies of Miryam, Elisheva, and Z'kharyahu do not affect the meaning of Romans 11:11.

Do you think Rav Sha'uwl (the Apostle Paul) was WRONG when he said those words? I don't believe that's what you're saying. Then if he indeed wrote what he intended to write, and God let his words stand as part of Scripture, and he was not wrong to say it, then why is it a stumbling block for you?

And, I think you mean what God said to the serpent, right? Because THIS is what He said to the woman:

Genesis 3:16
16 To the woman he said,

"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
NIV

... and I don't see how that applies to what we are talking about. <_< But we also read in Genesis 3 ...

Genesis 3:14-15
14 So the LORD God said to the serpent,

"Because you have done this,
"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel."
NIV

And, no, I'm not quite "catching your drift," because haSatan already was the "prince of the power of the air" by then and claimed to have the right to grant Yeshua` the kingdoms of the world:

Matthew 4:8-9
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
KJV

So, he had made two assumptions: (1) somehow, HE (the devil) owned the kingdoms of the world to be able to give them away, and (2) that Yeshua` was NOT already reigning over them! Now, granted, as haSatan and the devil, he was/is an egomaniac and a narcissist; so, we probably should not trust his assumptions, but he still convinced himself that this could be a temptation for Yeshua`!

"My persistence," as you call it, should not be all that "astonishing." I'm just adhering to God's Word. You can call it "stubbornness," if you prefer. I like to think of it as "perseverance." And, what you call "the longevity of my failure to understand 'the supernal' interpretation of God's words" is just "looking in the telescope backwards!" I would call it "being faithful (loyal; consistent) to the grammatical/historical interpretation of the Bible" that many call the "literal interpretation" because it often has a more literal interpretation of God's Word than does the allegorical interpretation. I don't buy all that "supernal" garbage. To me, that's just "heady and high-minded" nonsense and is not a scholarly way of looking at the Scriptures. In a nutshell, I believe that one who makes up that "supernal" garbage is PUTTING WORDS IN GOD'S MOUTH! And, I believe that that is a very DANGEROUS practice.

And, your statement, "I hope you are not simply following a party line, because it would be a big mistake to take comfort and assurance from the number of people who agree with you. They could all be all wrong - although being wrong is not necessarily the end. There is always the possibility of leaving behind every point of faulty theology to adopt the doctrines of God," can as easily apply to you as you think it does to me. Again, it is a matter of one's point of view.

You asked, "What is the kingdom of heaven? Jesus said it was near.

How was it near, and is it still near, or is it a thing of the past?

Can you be 'in' the kingdom of heaven, without 'the kingdom of God' being 'within you?'"

The Kingdom of heaven is "the Kingdom from the sky," and the Kingdom of God is "God's Kingdom." Yeshua` didn't actually say it was "near"; He said it was "at hand." That literally means it was "within their grasp." At the time when He said this, they could have reached out and taken His offer, because the Kingdom and all its benefits came with the King! All they had to do was to accept Him as their King, and they would have had their Kingdom!

THINK TIMING! Look at how early we read about this offer:

Mark 1:14-15
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
KJV

He didn't bother to explain what that "gospel" was or what the "kingdom of God" was. He just said to do a 180-degree turn and BELIEVE that gospel! Why didn't He explain? Because THEY ALREADY KNEW!

Isaiah 52:7
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good (Hebrew: "m-baseer Towv" = "good news" translated as "gospel" in the NT), that publisheth salvation (Hebrew: "yshuw`aah" = "rescue; deliverance; salvation"); that saith unto Zion, THY GOD REIGNETH! (Maalakh Elohaayikh!)
KJV

This was part of the Parashah reading each year as they'd read through the Torah! They were WELL acquainted with this verse! They would read it every year about the same time as part of the Parashah Shof'tim (the Judges section of the Torah, Deuteronomy 16:18-21:9, the 48th reading, this last year read on 4 Elul 5773 or August 10, 2013) in the Haftarah (supplemental readings) of Isaiah 51:12-52:12.

Is it still at hand? No. The King took His offer of the Kingdom with Him when He ascended away from this earth. So, yes, it is a thing of the past, and yet, it is also a thing of the future because it was promised that Yeshua` would return!

Acts 1:6-11
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
KJV

And, "can we be 'in' the Kingdom from the sky without the 'Kingdom of God' being 'in you?'" YES! There will be MILLIONS of people worldwide that will be a part of the Messiah's Empire, the Kingdom of the King of Kings, who will not be part of the Messiah's people, those who trust in Him for their Justification by God!

Those may not be the answers you were expecting or hoped for, but those are answers that I can guarantee you came from the Book!

 

[ENOCH2010]

Simple question for the supernal crowd, Is there a second coming of the Lord and a resurrection of the dead in that belief system?

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Retrobyter,

My apologies for skipping over your response to me in post #114. Really, I am not going to argue with your interpretation, even though I think you misunderstand the victory of Yeshua on the cross, and whereas we had no power to not sin, now, if we resist the devil, he will flee from us. Why would he be frightened of us if his power is undiminished? I think there are a lot of verses you skip over, which tell us that Satan's power has been broken. Still, I realise that for many 'Christians' (not necessarily you, of course), the idea that sin is not longer acceptable in the believer's heart and life, is - to say the least - unpopular as a doctrine - despite that Jesus, Peter, Paul and John all taught it.

So, returning to your point about us only having a down payment of the Holy Spirit, would you say, therefore, that no-one is actually born again until they have been raised from their graves?

However, that "spirit of slumber" was not put upon them until AFTER they were left "desolate" in Matthew 23:38

Was that a different spirit of slumber than the one Isaiah was told to prophesy over Israel in chapter 6 of his prophecy?

If so, when was that spirit of slumber lifted, and why did Jesus keep quoting if from Isaiah to say how apposite it was, if it had been lifted?