Temporal Salvation?

[DPMartin]

Jesus said... My sheep hear [present tense]my voice, and I know them, and they follow [present tense]me:

Are you paying attention? Jesus defines what a Sheep is! Jesus tells us what He promises the Sheep! Being a Sheep is conditional, for they is what Jesus said! No emphasis on the promises of God, or appealing to Israel will undo, modify, void, or exempt anyone from the condition that Jesus stated clearly and emphatically!

Using Israel as an example only shows that God did not forsake His Covenant with them. It does not mean that they cannot forsake their Covenant with God! "But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED." That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants."

Are you paying attention?

you are suggesting God can't keep you and, you can over ride the will of God or an act of God, as though He that made you, and made the concepts and existence of anything you can think or do, isn't as powerful as your "free will" you are defending as something more powerful then God.


by your posting its apparent you don't hear His Voice, therefore you don't get to follow. in which case if you don't know then why do you pretend to know what it is to follow? but it evident your an expert at not following and are not following otherwise you would know via experience. if you hear, then you follow, because if you don't hear then you don't believe.

one should note when Jesus was raised from the dead He revealed Himself to the faithful (trusting believers) and didn't reveal Himself to the non-believer. non-believers do not hear and do not follow. if you don't believe God is who He is and capable of what He's capable of, you believe amiss.

 

[Candidus]

you are suggesting God can't keep you and, you can over ride the will of God or an act of God, as though He that made you, and made the concepts and existence of anything you can think or do, isn't as powerful as your "free will" you are defending as something more powerful then God.


by your posting its apparent you don't hear His Voice, therefore you don't get to follow. in which case if you don't know then why do you pretend to know what it is to follow? but it evident your an expert at not following and are not following otherwise you would know via experience. if you hear, then you follow, because if you don't hear then you don't believe.

one should note when Jesus was raised from the dead He revealed Himself to the faithful (trusting believers) and didn't reveal Himself to the non-believer. non-believers do not hear and do not follow. if you don't believe God is who He is and capable of what He's capable of, you believe amiss.

How pathetic! You have no Scriptural answer, so you judge me by your heathen "theology" and with the swift broad-brush of an ad hominem declare that I fail to hear and follow Jesus because I do not believe something that He never said? Do you really believe that you are God? You accuse anyone that does not go along with your fictions to have a defective faith and are in "unbelief!"

Jesus said that you must have a present tense belief to be saved or to possess eternal life. He said that you must present tense hear and follow to receive the security that He speaks of! But you don't like what Jesus teaches, so you condemn anyone that would not dismiss His words like you do!

 

[farouk]

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"

"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. "

It's eternal salvation if we remain in the faith.

@Renniks I think if they don't have it, they never had it. Romans 8.38-39 strongly shows that those who truly have it will be kept, by God's grace.

 

[Candidus]

@Renniks I think if they don't have it, they never had it. Romans 8.38-39 strongly shows that those who truly have it will be kept, by God's grace.

The Bible "thinks" otherwise!

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus." Rom. 8:1.

"And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son." 1 Jn. 5:11.

"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love." Jn. 15:9-10.

"keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life." Jude 21.

 

[farouk]

The Bible "thinks" otherwise!

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus." Rom. 8:1.

"And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son." 1 Jn. 5:11.

"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love." Jn. 15:9-10.

"keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life." Jude 21.

I don't share your evident reading of those verses that it's supposedly a case of being in and out, back and forth.

Romans 8.38-39 is very clear; so is John's First Epistle; assurance of an established fact for the believer is very precious.

 

[Davy]

@Davy,

If you read the whole chapter in Hebrews 6, really study it...you will come to the same conclusion that I have...that Jesus is an anchor for the soul and is entered within the veil to make intercession for us...so if we cling to Jesus, we cannot lose our salvation no matter how hard the devil tries to take it away from us. There are two immutable things that testify that we cannot lose our salvation. 1) It is impossible for God to lie; and, 2) God confirmed it by an oath.

What Paul was saying in Hebrews 6 is that Jesus will not be mocked, essentially. That is what Paul meant with those who 'intentionally' fall away from Christ, rejecting their Salvation; to try to renew after doing that is to put Christ to an open shame as Paul said. So as I said in my previous post, one should actually 'read' what Paul said in Hebrews 6:4-8 and believe it as written, and not rely on men's doctrines that go against it just because some ministers preach as a business.

Heb 6:4-8
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
KJV

 

[Davy]

Hi, and it's my understanding (and among credible commentators) that Heb 6:4-6 is a supposition, "that it is impossible for those who were once enlightened . . . if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh." The sense is not that any would do this but if they could it would require a re-sacrifice of Christ--an impossibility.

It is not a supposition by Apostle Paul. It is a statement of truth about those who 'intentionally' turn away from Christ Jesus and reject Him.

What makes brethren like you think it might be just supposition is how men's doctrines have created the Hyper-Grace movement of thinking Jesus will not reject anyone that has ever believed on Him, which is to even deny His parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25! that because He showed there He will close the door on the five foolish virgins, and the unprofitable servant will be cast out among the wicked. To omit those Messages from God's Word is to take away, which is a very dangerous thing per His warning in Revelation 22.

 

[Candidus]

I don't share your evident reading of those verses that it's supposedly a case of being in and out, back and forth.

Romans 8.38-39 is very clear; so is John's First Epistle; assurance of an established fact for the believer is very precious.

Yes, assurance is a fact for Believer's who is "in" Christ.

"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love." Jn. 15:10. "but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:" 1 Jn. 2:5. "As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." 1 Jn. 2:24.

"Keep yourselves in the love of God"! Jude 21.


"For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end..." Heb. 3:14.

 

[Netchaplain]

It is not a supposition by Apostle Paul. It is a statement of truth about those who 'intentionally' turn away from Christ Jesus and reject Him.

It's my understanding that one can only reject that which is not received, hence "rejection".

is to even deny His parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25! that because He showed there He will close the door on the five foolish virgins.

I understand it that the foolish virgins were not sincere, evidencing a casual desire in not ensuring they were ready; and the Lord showed were not believers (v 12).

and the unprofitable servant will be cast out among the wicked.

He was "unprofitable," Greek "achreios," good for nothing, esp, concerning faith and unbelieving.

 

[justbyfaith]

Amen! Are you [present tense] doing the will of God?

Are you not loving the world and doing as God commanded? If so, if you are presently doing so, right now, this moment, will abide [present tense] forever as long as they continue to presently do so.

It doesn't say there that you will abide for ever as long as you continue to presently do the will of God;

While by definition, abiding in Christ means that you will continue to do the will of God.

And what I am saying by this, is that our abiding is not dependent on our obedience, i.e. we do not abide by obeying; but rather we obey because we are abiding.

And abiding is by faith.

Therefore as long as we continue to have faith in Jesus (and this is sealed into us by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14)), we will be abiding and will continue to do the will of God as the result.

In other words, we do not abide because of obeying; but we obey because of abiding.

For we abide by staying connected to the vine (Jesus Christ) and we stay connected to the vine through faith in Him. The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost (Romans 5:5) because of faith in Him (Galatians 3:14).

The fruit of the Spirit is love (Galatians 5:22-23) and we bear that fruit because of staying connected to the vine through faith in Jesus. The sap of the vine is drawn up through the roots into the branch and the nourishment of the sap proceeds to the end of the branch and develops the fruit as the sap flows outward.

So it also has to do with a relationship with the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the physical vine; and the Holy Spirit is the life of the vine and the branches (and the fruit).

 

[Davy]

It's my understanding that one can only reject that which is not received, hence "rejection".

That above statement has absolutely no bearing on the Hebrews 6:4-8 Scripture whatsoever.

I understand it that the foolish virgins were not sincere, evidencing a casual desire in not ensuring they were ready; and the Lord showed were not believers (v 12).

That's just an excuse to keep your tradition of men instead of heeding Jesus' warning there in Matthew 25 about the five foolish virgins. There is NOTHING there to show they weren't believers on Him. Instead, there is everything there in the parable to show they were... believers on Him! Your twisting of that Scripture does not work, nor the doctrine of men that causes you to reject it as written.

He was "unprofitable," Greek "achreios," good for nothing, esp, concerning faith and unbelieving.

Once again, there is NOTHING there to show the unprofitable servant was a non-believer. The fact that he was handed a talent at the beginning shows he was a believer and servant of Christ. He simply went his own way after believing on Jesus, thinking he was saved and became unprofitable. That is what doing nothing with the symbolic talent represents...

Luke 12:47-48
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
KJV

 

[Netchaplain]

That's just an excuse to keep your tradition of men instead of heeding Jesus' warning there in Matthew 25 about the five foolish virgins. There is NOTHING there to show they weren't believers on Him. Instead, there is everything there in the parable to show they were... believers on Him! Your twisting of that Scripture does not work, nor the doctrine of men that causes you to reject it as written.

The Lord said He never new the 5 foolish virgins (v 12).

Once again, there is NOTHING there to show the unprofitable servant was a non-believer. The fact that he was handed a talent at the beginning shows he was a believer and servant of Christ. He simply went his own way after believing on Jesus, thinking he was saved and became unprofitable. That is what doing nothing with the symbolic talent represents...

Luke 12:47-48
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
KJV

These passage are the in the same sense as verse 46, which is classified "with the unbelievers" (v 46). Verses 47, 48 are descriptive of those who will receive varying levels of punishment in the lake of fire (according to the Bible commentator community).

Luke 12 Bible Commentary - John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible

 

[Davy]

The Lord said He never new the 5 foolish virgins (v 12).

That is what He says when He comes, and the point was that THEY believed on Him, which what you say against that is a twist away from the point in the Scripture. The five foolish virgins ALSO had lamps with The OIL (Holy Spirit). That's what the OIL there represents! Obviously you need a 'real' lesson on why Jesus says He never knew them, because it wasn't some false idea that they were not believers on Christ Jesus.

These passage are the in the same sense as verse 46, which is classified "with the unbelievers" (v 46). Verses 47, 48 are descriptive of those who will receive varying levels of punishment in the lake of fire (according to the Bible commentator community).

Luke 12 Bible Commentary - John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible

The end result... is being cast among the unbelievers. It doesn't mean they didn't believe.

Where did they mess up then? Jesus revealed it. One just has to 'read' it, and heed it.

Luke 13:24-28
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, "Lord, Lord, open unto us"; and he shall answer and say unto you, "I know you not whence ye are":
26 Then shall ye begin to say, "We have eaten and drunk in Thy presence, and Thou hast taught in our streets."
27 But he shall say, "I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from Me, all ye workers of iniquity."
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
KJV


Matt 7:20-23
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto Me, "Lord, Lord", shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father Which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?"
23 And then will I profess unto them, "I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."
KJV

Luke 6:46-49
46 And why call ye Me, 'Lord, Lord', and do not the things which I say?
47 Whosoever cometh to Me, and heareth My sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.
KJV

The spare vessel of the OIL which the five wise virgins had, but the five foolish virgins did not have, reveals one of the problems going on today in some Churches. They preach The Gospel and saving Grace of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, but they don't reveal that a believer on Him CAN fall away from Him by thinking they are already saved and can never lose their salvation, i.e., the OSAS false doctrine. Those believers often use that as a license to do iniquity.

 

[Netchaplain]

That is what He says when He comes, and the point was that THEY believed on Him, which what you say against that is a twist away from the point in the Scripture.

Though I appreciate your replies, it appears we differ in most of what we believe. I also feel it needs mentioned that we should avoid being accusative ("twist," and not that I'm offended) because it's not becoming of believers, considering the primary goal is manifest love to one another (just trying to be helpful not judgmental).

Concerning the Lord "knowing" someone, it's a confirmation of being His, thus if He said "I never knew you" (Mat 7:23) confirms never being His:
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Jhn 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his.

The five foolish virgins ALSO had lamps with The OIL (Holy Spirit). It's okay, but you are just mistaken about them having oil, because they didn't (Mat 25:3).

 

[Davy]

Though I appreciate your replies, it appears we differ in most of what we believe.

Well, then maybe you ought to consider leaving the political correctness world views you've been taught that is just an act of playing it safe. One who stands up for what God's Word actually teaches, as written, is not going to be popular in this day and time.

I also feel it needs mentioned that we should avoid being accusative ("twist," and not that I'm offended) because it's not becoming of believers, considering the primary goal is manifest love to one another (just trying to be helpful not judgmental).

Sounds to me you're not used to be corrected, but maybe instead your followers agree with what you preach and you think that's a proper gauge for actually preaching what God's written Word says instead? Sorry, that ploy does not work. If you're going to go against the written Scripture and teach comfort doctrines of men (like OSAS), then you need someone like me that cares enough to say something about it.

For what you said in closing, that's not going to work either. What our Lord Jesus said is how it is, and how it will be. He showed He will close the door on those who believe in Him that work INIQUITY. And let me tell you, those are not prepared for the coming Antichrist at the end and what he is going to do upon the whole world. So their future falling away to the Antichrist in worshiping the wrong Christ, is going to be a major iniquity working by them. Sweet love-dove messages is not... going to keep those deceived out of the fire, which is why even more now than ever, they need to hear the Truth of how they CAN fall, warning given by those that have the duty to wake them up!

 

[Netchaplain]

Well, then maybe you ought to consider leaving the political correctness world views you've been taught that is just an act of playing it safe.

Not a nice way of putting it, if we are to communicate.

Sounds to me you're not used to be corrected,

Actually often, because my views often very from the average believer, and is why I make the practice of never taking offence, even if intended.

but maybe instead your followers agree with what you preach

I don't seek followers, just other Christians wanting to share their beliefs with one another for the sake of God using us together to learn the truths of His Word.

then you need someone like me that cares enough to say something about it.

I appreciate your intention, but you do need someone like me too, in letting you know that you can communicate better with respect and kindness. Not judging, just trying to be genuinely sincere with you on everything.

God's blessings to your Family, and God be blessed!

 

[Joseph77]

very

"vary"
= differ

complements of the unauthorized word poliec

 

[Davy]

Not a nice way of putting it, if we are to communicate.

Actually often, because my views often very from the average believer, and is why I make the practice of never taking offence, even if intended.

I don't seek followers, just other Christians wanting to share their beliefs with one another for the sake of God using us together to learn the truths of His Word.

I appreciate your intention, but you do need someone like me too, in letting you know that you can communicate better with respect and kindness. Not judging, just trying to be genuinely sincere with you on everything.

God's blessings to your Family, and God be blessed!

Well, I was in the military and was a sergeant, so I know how some have a difficult time with simplicity. But teaching the very thing our Lord Jesus warned us about, i.e., doctrines of men that are not written in God's Word, that is a whole other matter of which there is no excuse. So when I accuse, I have a valid reason. And of course those who stray from God's written Word to teach other things, especially politically correct things of this world, deserve rebuke, whether they like it or not, and whether they think they can be judged by another brother or not. Biblical ideas of judgment can mean different things; we have no power or authority to judge one to hell, but we can say whether a brother is 'in danger' of going to hell because of their wrong works, but I'm not even doing that here. So I don't care if you like me, or what I say or not.

 

[Joseph77]

Is this a commandment: "STOP" (repent of) seeking the approval or the love of men.
DO seek the APPROVAL OF GOD.

 

[Joseph77]

Is a "STOP" Sign (for traffic) a temporal law, injunction, instruction, or other ?

Does the STOP sign save anyone's life from death by accident ?