The 10 Commandments are FOREVER

[Gottservant]

Does someone who is a god, contend with other gods, over their being "gods"? No! They would rather reach the fool!

So what is the fool, that says he will be one of the gods by argument? Which argument? No! The gods would rather not argue!

Alright, so there is power in the tongue, to make one a fool or a god, but only by faith - doesn't that mean the gods would prefer to be wise and the fool prefer not to be intemperate?

Let the gods be temperate, then! Let the fool be quiet!

 

[Jack]

What NT passage revoked God's Sabbath gift to us?

Gift? Anyone who worked on the Sabbath was executed.

When the Pharisees and Sadducees accused Jesus of breaking the law by working on the Sabbath they were referring to that of the Halakah. An extra biblical hedge they invented to insure God's actual law would not be violated.

Jesus knew this. And his working on the Sabbath did not violate his law, but theirs.

What???

Exodus 31:15
15 Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Which is why proved whose law is righteous being Jesus could not sin.

"Yet I say to you that in this place there is One greater than the temple. But if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the guiltless. For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath" Matthew 12:6-8

Matthew 12:12 "... Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”

Like I said, the Law preachers pick and choose the parts they like.

 

[Jim B]

no, you weren't very clear about where exactly you stood on it.

you said you didn't agree with it, but you seemed to imply you agreed that the jews were God's chosen people so that's why my post 2,266.

anywho, ...

THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE FOREVER!

THEY STILL, AND ALWAYS WILL, APPLY TO TRUE CHRISTIANS!

GOD BLESS ALL TRUE CHRISTIANS!

It saddens me that you don't understand the New Covenant! Why do you think Christ died? So that Christians would still be under the OT law? Was His sacrifice useless?

 

[M3n0r4h]

Actually they worked on the Sabbath and Jesus was with them. Jesus didn't have them executed as the Law COMMANDS!

go ahead and present your case with scripture and I'll happily, and very easily, show you where you're wrong.

if you're implying Jesus sinned, you're in for more chagrin ...

because the Bible makes clear multiple times, multiple ways that He was sinless.

let's get started.

 

[M3n0r4h]

Incorrect.

Implying I'm not a true Christian is pathetic.

and there it is.

I've been waiting for your true obvious character to reveal itself from our very first exchange.

it's very easy to tell who's sincere on these boards and who is playing a role.

take care.

 

[M3n0r4h]

There's lots of Law preachers but none of them obey the Law!

which Commandment do you claim we break?

they're not difficult to keep, ya know.

which ones are impossible to keep?

God made it simple.

 

[M3n0r4h]

If someone wants to ignore God's Sabbath gift, that's their prerogative.

wrong.

ignoring the Sabbath Commandment is breaking the 4th Commandment.

it's no Christian's prerogative to disobey God's Commandments.

stumbling is one thing, as James 3:2 makes clear, but willingly breaking any of the 10 on a regular basis is not just a Christian's prerogative.

sin is the breaking of the 10 Commandments per 1 John 3:4.

Jesus kept them (John 15:10), Jesus taught them (Matt. 23:1-3) and Jesus' closest followers kept them after His death on the Cross - including the Sabbath (Luke 23:54-56) for 300 years thereafter until the Catholic Church changed everything.

any lax attitude, by any Christian, toward the 10 Commandments will be dealt with as in Matt. 7:23 by Jesus.

there is no middle ground here.

a Christian is a "Follower of Christ".

period.

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the Commandments of God (just as Jesus did), and the faith of Jesus."
Rev. 14:12

the faith, the doctrine, the belief system, of Jesus Christ IS the Ten Commandments of God.

 

[M3n0r4h]

You won't find salvation under the Law.

you sure won't find Salvation in disobedience and living life your own way.

you are a worker of iniquity preaching the breaking of the 10 Commandments.

you are not following Christ ... who ARE you following?

even the serpents and vipers of the NT actually TAUGHT obedience to the 10 Commandments while YOU teach NOT to obey God.

Jesus said if your righteousness does not EXCEED that of those snakes and children of the devil, you will in no wise enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[Brakelite]

Gift? Anyone who worked on the Sabbath was executed.


Exodus 31:15
15 Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

KJV Exodus 31:15-17
15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Did you not know that the new covenant was promised only to Israel?

KJV Hebrews 8:10
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

But that's okay, because...

KJV Ephesians 2:11-22
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Who are we then? We are Israel!!!
Yay!!! You know what that means? The new covenant is for us, and lo and behold, the same law that was written by Jesus' own finger on tables of stone, He is now writing upon the fleshly tables of our hearts.
KJV 2 Corinthians 3:3
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Now that's exciting. Righteousness, that is obedience to all God's commandments, comes to us by faith, and it is lived out experientially through the love of the holy Spirit abiding within. So. No-one is earning their way to heaven. God Himself had made provision for all who believe to become sons and daughters of God, and along with that awesome privilege comes the power, and the desire, to obey all of God's Commandments. Even the 4th.

Just like all the Law preachers I have debated

I don't ever preach law, because the law gets a little dry and distasteful after a while. But I do preach the gospel... And you'll find that in some of my previous posts. The gospel uplifts and glorifies the Giver of the law, along with the law itself. In threads like this though, when other Christians start preaching lawlessness, I just cannot help myself to defend God's laws, seeing they are a written transcript of His very own character.

You won't find salvation under the Law.

Certainly not. Particularly when those under the law are under it's condemnation. KJV Romans 3:19-20
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

 

[Jim B]

Actually they worked on the Sabbath and Jesus was with them. Jesus didn't have them executed as the Law COMMANDS!

You must be looking in your mirror.

Jesus understood the true meaning of the sabbath, unlike the people who opted for legalism over mercy.

 

[Jim B]

So now we are talking about circumcision? You really think we are advocating for circumcision in order to be justified?

Yet Paul called the law holy, just, and good.

I keep those parts of the law that are applicable to NT Christians, and humanity in general. I don't live under a theocracy that requires me to inflict death upon sinners. And even Jim actually agrees with me that we ought to be obeying those commandments that reflect love for neighbor etc, as he detailed above. (Rom 8:4; 13:10) Surely you don't disagree with that.
Although I disagree with him that I am twisting the conversation. The topic is, the "Ten Commandments are forever". Jim seems to think they are, in fact he says it is the holy Spirit that prompts and changes our hearts and minds to obey, by changing our very nature from
A. darkness to light, Eph 5:8
B. from disobedience to obedience Rom. 6:15-22
C. From being under the authority of the prince of this world to the authority of Christ.

But we all knew that didn't we. I know that you have no real problem with 9 of the Commandments. The only one you have any issue with is the 4th, and in a pique of emotional hip shooting, find it necessary to throw all the commandments out as being a tyranny and a bondage. Sad that you fellas think it a tyranny and a bondage to be faithful to your wife and refrain from stealing your neighbors car. I'm kidding, I actually don't think you really believe that...

Notwithstanding.

but nor do I think you have really thought through all your arguments.
It's actually all about C above. It's about authority. Who is your Lord? Do you seek to obey your Lord in all things applicable to loving Him with all your heart, soul, mind, and heart, and you neighbor as yourself, or are you on the throne dictating to yourself what is expedient with regards commandment number 4? Which gets back to what one of said about obeying the laws you like, and ignoring the ones you don't like.
There are 3 authorities vying for attention here. Satan, who uses earthly powers to enforce false doctrine through legislation and deception... Your own heart that doesn't like to obey in those areas that prove difficult, awkward, embarrassing, or costly... And Jesus, who was the Lawgiver on Sinai and who is the same yesterday, today, and forever. It's that 4th commandment that is a stumbling block isn't it. But in order to defend your rejection of the 4th, you have to justify throwing out everything, calling it "the law of Moses" and a tyranny and a bondage...which my friends includes the 7th commandment.

Yes, Paul called the law holy, just, and good. And it is. But what the law produces in the unsaved is submission to the power of sin, which results in death.

It is frequently a mistake to take a single verse out of context to prove a point. Here are those words you cite in context: "For sin, seizing an opportunity in the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and just and good.
Did what is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin that was working death in me through what is good, in order that it might be shown to be sin, so that through the commandment sin might become sinful beyond measure."

You are giving a fine example of eisegesis: the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases. It is commonly referred to as reading into the text.

Don't bend God's word to fit your personal doctrine!

 

[Jim B]

So now we are talking about circumcision? You really think we are advocating for circumcision in order to be justified?

Yet Paul called the law holy, just, and good.

I keep those parts of the law that are applicable to NT Christians, and humanity in general. I don't live under a theocracy that requires me to inflict death upon sinners. And even Jim actually agrees with me that we ought to be obeying those commandments that reflect love for neighbor etc, as he detailed above. (Rom 8:4; 13:10) Surely you don't disagree with that.
Although I disagree with him that I am twisting the conversation. The topic is, the "Ten Commandments are forever". Jim seems to think they are, in fact he says it is the holy Spirit that prompts and changes our hearts and minds to obey, by changing our very nature from
A. darkness to light, Eph 5:8
B. from disobedience to obedience Rom. 6:15-22
C. From being under the authority of the prince of this world to the authority of Christ.

But we all knew that didn't we. I know that you have no real problem with 9 of the Commandments. The only one you have any issue with is the 4th, and in a pique of emotional hip shooting, find it necessary to throw all the commandments out as being a tyranny and a bondage. Sad that you fellas think it a tyranny and a bondage to be faithful to your wife and refrain from stealing your neighbors car. I'm kidding, I actually don't think you really believe that...

Notwithstanding.

but nor do I think you have really thought through all your arguments.
It's actually all about C above. It's about authority. Who is your Lord? Do you seek to obey your Lord in all things applicable to loving Him with all your heart, soul, mind, and heart, and you neighbor as yourself, or are you on the throne dictating to yourself what is expedient with regards commandment number 4? Which gets back to what one of said about obeying the laws you like, and ignoring the ones you don't like.
There are 3 authorities vying for attention here. Satan, who uses earthly powers to enforce false doctrine through legislation and deception... Your own heart that doesn't like to obey in those areas that prove difficult, awkward, embarrassing, or costly... And Jesus, who was the Lawgiver on Sinai and who is the same yesterday, today, and forever. It's that 4th commandment that is a stumbling block isn't it. But in order to defend your rejection of the 4th, you have to justify throwing out everything, calling it "the law of Moses" and a tyranny and a bondage...which my friends includes the 7th commandment.

You are twisting what I wrote, "putting words in my mouth". We comply with God's law because of what is written in our hearts. No Christian needs to be commanded by the OT law to love your neighbor, for example. Christians are guided by the Holy Spirit, who naturally guides us to behave as God wills.

As you correctly said, "Jim seems to think they are, in fact he says it is the holy Spirit that prompts and changes our hearts and minds to obey". NOT THE WRITTEN LAW, WHICH APPLIES TO ALL WHO HAVEN'T BEEN BORN OF THE SPIRIT.

You wrote this nonsense: "The only one you have any issue with is the 4th, and in a pique of emotional hip shooting, find it necessary to throw all the commandments out as being a tyranny and a bondage" is a prime example of reductio ad absurdum. Try reading how Jesus dealt with sabbath observation in Matthew 12:11-12, "He said to them, “Suppose one of you has only one sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath; will you not lay hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable is a human being than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” and Matthew 12:1-8, "At that time Jesus went through the grain fields on the Sabbath; his disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. When the Pharisees saw it, they said to him, “Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath.” He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 How he entered the house of God, and they ate the bread of the Presence, which it was not lawful for him or his companions to eat, but only for the priests? Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and yet are guiltless? I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. But if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.” See, the legalistic interpretation of the fourth commandment is what gets you into trouble. You need to read it (and the rest of Scripture) with understanding!

Finally, your fixation on the seventh commandment clearly shows where your mind is!

 

[Jim B]

go ahead and present your case with scripture and I'll happily, and very easily, show you where you're wrong.

if you're implying Jesus sinned, you're in for more chagrin ...

because the Bible makes clear multiple times, multiple ways that He was sinless.

let's get started.

Try reading post #2271 with understanding (if that is even possible with your mind). You are trying to portray yourself as smart, but that is clearly deception. You are wrong time after time after time...

 

[Jim B]

which Commandment do you claim we break?

they're not difficult to keep, ya know.

which ones are impossible to keep?

God made it simple.

Do you really think that the OT law is limited to the ten commandments? No wonder your arguments are so specious.

Do you want to be purified before God? "You shall lay your hand on the head of the purification offering; it shall be slaughtered as a purification offering at the spot where the burnt offering is slaughtered." Leviticus 4:33 and "He took the goat of the purification offering that was for the people and slaughtered it and presented it as a purification offering like the first one." Leviticus 9:15

Do you want to be free of guilt? "The priest shall slaughter the lamb of the guilt offering and shall take some of the blood of the guilt offering and put it on the lobe of the right ear of the one to be cleansed and on the thumb of the right hand and on the big toe of the right foot." Leviticus 14:25

And so on...

See, you can't choose just those parts of the OT law that you think are appropriate and ignore the rest, thereby disobeying God. James 2:10, "For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it."

I would strongly advise you to drop your glib attitude about God's law!

 

[M3n0r4h]

Did you not know that the new covenant was promised only to Israel?

But that's okay, because...

Who are we then? We are Israel!!!
Yay!!! You know what that means? The new covenant is for us,

Amen.

God Himself had made provision for all who believe ... the power, and the desire, to obey all of God's Commandments. Even the 4th.

Amen.

... when other Christians start preaching lawlessness, I just cannot help myself to defend God's laws, seeing they are a written transcript of His very own character.

Absolutely.

and that is how God knows who belong to Him.

those who happily follow, and obey, His laws.

they are not burdensome, and they are anything but impossible to keep.

those who occasionally stumble in their efforts are forgiven and encouraged, and are helped in their efforts at repentance via the Holy Spirit.

it's all so simple and straightforward, but it's been perverted and mangled by those who preach lies and disobedience.

they are all workers of iniquity and will be handled as such in the fullness of time.

 

[David in NJ]

"The works of His hands are verity and judgment; all His Commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in Truth and uprightness."
Psalms 111:7-8

Who are the 10 Commandments written to?
They are written to all God's Children.

Who are God's Children? Let's see.

God is a spirit. Those who worship Him (His Children) must worship Him in spirit and in Truth.
John 4:24

Spiritual Israel are God's Children; NOT any physical/fleshly race - for "...they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God:.."
Romans 9:8

Is God's Law a physical Law or a Spiritual Law?
"For we know that the Law is spiritual:..."
Romans 7:14

"Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, (those who do them and keep them may go to heaven.)...Ye shall not add unto (them), neither shall ye diminish (them)..., that ye might keep the Commandments of the Lord your God ..."
Deuteronomy 4:1-2

NOTE: this chapter speaks nothing of the Mosaic/Ceremonial laws. It is ONLY referring to the 10 Commandments which ARE God's Law.

"And He declared unto you ... Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on tables of stone."
Deuteronomy 4:13

And what if His Children stop obeying His Commandments?

"... the Lord shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen,..."
Deuteronomy 4:27

We are living this reality today. Scattered far and wide; few and far between among the nations.

"But if from thence thou shalt seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find Him, if thou seek Him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
(This next verse is PROOF POSITIVE that the Commandments are still valid to this very day.)
When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days (end times), if thou turn to the Lord thy God, and shalt be obedient unto His voice; (For the Lord thy God is a merciful God; ) He will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers (10 Commandments) which He sware unto them."
Deuteronomy 4:29-31

"The works of His hands are verity and judgment; all His Commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in Truth and uprightness."
Psalms 111:7-8

"My covenant will I not break nor alter (forever) the thing that has gone out of My lips."
Psalms 89:34

"For I am the Lord, I change not; ..."
Malachi 3:6

YES, the Ten Commandments are Eternal and apply to all of Creation.

The Ten Commandments are fulfilled in Christ = thus the reason that we can only be Saved thru Christ

We cannot be saved, on our own seeking to obey the Ten Commandments.

If you do not understand this just let me know = Peace

 

[Jim B]

see my post below...

 

[Jim B]

Amen.

Amen.

Absolutely.

and that is how God knows who belong to Him.

those who happily follow, and obey, His laws.

they are not burdensome, and they are anything but impossible to keep.

those who occasionally stumble in their efforts are forgiven and encouraged, and are helped in their efforts at repentance via the Holy Spirit.

it's all so simple and straightforward, but it's been perverted and mangled by those who preach lies and disobedience.

they are all workers of iniquity and will be handled as such in the fullness of time.

Romans 7:4-6, " In the same way, my brothers and sisters, you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we are enslaved in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the written code."

So who should be believed, you or the great apostle Paul? "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness" 2 Timothy 3:16

What you write is your opinion and clearly disagrees with what scripture says. It's all so simple and straightforward, but it's been perverted and mangled by you and others who preach otherwise.

 

[M3n0r4h]

We cannot be saved, on our own seeking to obey the Ten Commandments.

If you do not understand this just let me know = Peace

I don't understand.

how can we be seeking to obey them on our own when Christ taught to obey them?

are you saying we must embrace Christ, and all that He taught, at the same time as we are obeying the 10 Commandments?

 

[Jack]

go ahead and present your case with scripture and I'll happily, and very easily, show you where you're wrong.

Already did and you didn't.

if you're implying Jesus sinned, you're in for more chagrin ...

Jesus was sinless.

because the Bible makes clear multiple times, multiple ways that He was sinless.

let's get started.

Go for it.