rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
No
It is 2 different harvests.
The grain harvest. The church/ bride
The fruit harvest. Jews The wayward wife reclaimed
Two different seasons.
Once harvest is on the table. Firstfruit is beginning to be understood.
The 144,000 before God at the end.
- Thread starter Hobie
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
It is 2 different harvests.
The grain harvest. The church/ bride
The fruit harvest. Jews The wayward wife reclaimed
Two different seasons.
Once harvest is on the table. Firstfruit is beginning to be understood.
3 Resurrections
Active Member
The Matthew 27:52-53 saints resurrected from their graves on the same day that "Christ the First-fruits" arose were meant to be the fulfillment of the OT First-fruits wave sheaf offering of barley grain back in Leviticus 23:9-12.
That sheaf of First-fruits barley grain was to be offered in the temple along with a single he-lamb without blemish. The First-fruits sheaf of barley grain was meant to symbolize the resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 saints - the first group resurrection "harvest" event to take place - a representative example of the even greater number of saints to be "harvested" out of the ground later in the next two group resurrection events. The single he-lamb offered together along with that First-fruits barley grain was meant to represent Christ. Both were considered "First-fruits", and together these composed the "First resurrection" event, since they were all raised from the dead on the same day during Passover week.
The 144,000 First-fruits members of those Jewish tribes were a literal number of resurrected Israelites from those various stipulated tribes. The tribes of Dan and Ephraim were not included in this First-fruits resurrection because both tribes had apostatized fully into idol worship back in the OT.
That sheaf of First-fruits barley grain was to be offered in the temple along with a single he-lamb without blemish. The First-fruits sheaf of barley grain was meant to symbolize the resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 saints - the first group resurrection "harvest" event to take place - a representative example of the even greater number of saints to be "harvested" out of the ground later in the next two group resurrection events. The single he-lamb offered together along with that First-fruits barley grain was meant to represent Christ. Both were considered "First-fruits", and together these composed the "First resurrection" event, since they were all raised from the dead on the same day during Passover week.
The 144,000 First-fruits members of those Jewish tribes were a literal number of resurrected Israelites from those various stipulated tribes. The tribes of Dan and Ephraim were not included in this First-fruits resurrection because both tribes had apostatized fully into idol worship back in the OT.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Christ is the firstfruits of the resurrection along with those in paradise.
Those in paradise had never been purchased. Christ purchased them and resurrected them .
Hence Firstfruits along with Christ.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^grain harvest^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The 144k are Jewish Firstfruits of the fruit harvest. (Distinct and different from the grain harvests).
12 tribes.
Jewish Firstfruits. Listed and documented beyond any chance of error.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^fruit harvest^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
2 completely different harvests and time frame.
Last edited:
3 Resurrections
Active Member
Scripture in Leviticus 23:9-17 refers to the grain offerings of barley and wheat as "First-fruits". The sheaf handful of barley grain offered at Passover was called the "First-fruits", and the Pentecost offering 50 days later of two loaves baked with leaven was also called the "First-fruits" of that later wheat harvest. That "bread of the First-fruits" in Lev. 23:20 did not involve the kind of fruit you are thinking of.
You are getting hung up on the word "fruit", thinking that this must always be like grapes, dates, or oranges, etc. The next harvests at the feast of ingathering in Israel in the seventh month were referred to as "the fruit of the land" (Lev. 23:39).
All of the three harvest seasons in Israel yielded "fruit" of one sort or another, but the sheaf handful of barley First-fruits at Passover along with that single he-lamb was meant to represent the Passover "First resurrection" event of Christ and the Matthew 27:52-53 saints - the first of three group resurrection events to take place over human history.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Revelation 14:4
"These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."
Give me a verse that claims they stop following Jesus. Give me a verse that states any other group followed the Lamb like the 144k.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
There were way more than 144k resurrected at the Cross.
The 144k were never resurrected, nor physically dead. Read Revelation 7. These were living humans on earth at the time of the 6th Seal. The 6th Seal was not opened while Jesus was on the Cross.
"Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."
What tribulation started the moment Jesus physically died on the Cross? These were sealed so the tribulation would not effect them on the earth. If they were in heaven at that point, they would not need to be protected on the earth. Nor does it say in Revelation 7, they ever left the earth.
You have the 144k in the wrong harvest. The OT were the firstfruits of the NT church, before there was an NT church other than the 12 disciples. The OT redeemed were as much a part of the church in Paradise from that moment on.
The 144k are the firstfruits of the Second Coming. They were separated like the 12 disciples were. The 12 disciples also went everywhere on earth that Jesus did, and eventually all made it to Paradise. But they did not ascend with Jesus in Acts 1.
The 144k are the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom.
3 Resurrections
Active Member
I never wrote that the 144,000 First-fruits were resurrected at the Cross. These 144,000 First-fruits Matthew 27:52-53 saints came out of their graves AFTER Christ's resurrection, on that same day that He arose. The resurrected Christ resurrected them all out of their broken-open graves around Jerusalem. The 144,000 First-fruits were also the "remnant of the dead" in Rev. 20:5 that came to life again in the "First resurrection" at the ending point of the millennium in AD 33.
These 144,000 First-fruits of Rev. 14:4 are the same as the 144,000 from all those stipulated Jewish tribes in Rev. 7. We know these were resurrected, glorified individuals because their bodies were "redeemed from the earth", and they were "without fault", with no guile in their mouth in a state of perfected, resurrected incorruptibility. They stood with the Lamb on Mount Zion in Jerusalem, which is what the Matthew 27:52-53 saints did on the same day when the newly-resurrected Christ was in Jerusalem. that day. They went into Jerusalem and were seen of many there.
It is the crowned Son of Man in Revelation 14 sitting on a cloud (at His resurrection-day ascension to the Father) which "harvested" that group out of the earth with the sickle. On this occasion, Christ did this "harvesting" by Himself, with no assistance from the angels, which would assist with gathering the resurrected saints in the next resurrection event.
These 144,000 First-fruits, resurrected Matt. 27 saints remained on the earth in the days of the early church, serving as evangelists, pastors, prophets, and teachers to edify the body of Christ. They remained on the earth in a sealed, protected status which reserved them for their eventual rapture to heaven in AD 70, along with the rest of the saints resurrected at Christ's return.
The years of Great Tribulation starting in AD 66 could not harm any of these sealed, 144,000 resurrected individuals, since they were in a glorified, incorruptible condition in the eternal state which is impervious to any kind of harm whatever.
The 144000 are the same ones that have been redeemed from among/out of men and from the earth Rev 14:1-4
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
They are the same ones here Rev 5:9-10
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Both groups were redeemed from the earth and from among men, its the same greek word for redeem, both song a new song.
So the 144000 and the multitude out of every kindred, and tongue, and people and nation are the same
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
They are the same ones here Rev 5:9-10
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Both groups were redeemed from the earth and from among men, its the same greek word for redeem, both song a new song.
So the 144000 and the multitude out of every kindred, and tongue, and people and nation are the same
The 144000 is the Church here in Col 1
It presents us , those he died for, holy, and unblameable and unreprovable in his sight.
That is the True result of being reconciled to God by Christ death while being enemies Rom 5:10, Col 1:21-22
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
This result comes through His Death, not by Faith, for vs 22a makes that clear.
Remember they were redeemed Col 1:14
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
It presents us , those he died for, holy, and unblameable and unreprovable in his sight.
That is the True result of being reconciled to God by Christ death while being enemies Rom 5:10, Col 1:21-22
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
This result comes through His Death, not by Faith, for vs 22a makes that clear.
Remember they were redeemed Col 1:14
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Does this mean the 144,000 are not in agreement with the two witnesses? Or would there be another reason why they don’t allow the two witnesses to be buried?
Revelation 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
TribulationSigns
Active Member
Two Witnesses = 144,000 = Great Multitude.
They all symbolically the Elect in Christ who have received power to preach the Gospel to the world since the Cross. They are chosen Christiansa. The "people, kindreds, tongues, and nations" represent the enemies who do not like to hear the Gospel which torments them. Today, they do not like to hear that homosexuality is considered by God as an abomination. They do not like to hear that women can't be a pastor. They do not like to hear that their prosperity gospel is wrong. So with the silence of Gospel Truth, they can rejoice and do whatever they like to teach as they please in the church (Great City) over the dead bodies of two witnesses. Right in the great city (church). They did not even bother to bury it as if they did not mourn or care about the Truth. In other words, they refuse to repent.
Rev 11:10
(10) And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
TribulationSigns
Active Member
Speculated and false imagination of man. The Word of God does not teach this. The 144,000 were not literal men who were protected so they could be raptured into heaven in 70AD. Nonsense.
TribulationSigns
Active Member
Actually, they/we as True Christians witness against everything in the church that is contrary to the Gospel - something they hate to hear because it torments them who believe the doctrines of the devils (lying signs and wonders). It is the battle between the Word of God coming out of the mouths of Christians and the word of Satan coming out of the false prophets and christs and people deceived by them.
You said the 144000 and the multitude out of every kindred, and tongue, and people and nation are the same. In Revelation 11:9 they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations don’t allow the two witnesses to be buried.
Where are you on this? Is Revelation 11:9 an exception to “the 144000 and the multitude out of every kindred, and tongue, and people and nation are the same”?
Let me ask you this, why is the term great multitude used to describe the 144,00 instead of remnant?
3 Resurrections
Active Member
Sorry, but that's impossible. Those in Revelation 5:9-10 singing that new song were said to be the 4 living creatures and the 24 elders, taken out of every kindred, people, tongue and nation. The number of 144,000 found in Rev. 7 & 14 was not equal to 24 elders. Those 24 elders were never called the "First-fruits" as the 144,000 were. And the 144,000 were specifically said to come from those twelve stipulated tribes of Israel - not from every nation, people and tongue.
The Word of God in Rev. 14:4 directly says that the 144,000 were the "First-fruits", just like Christ was also called the "First-fruits" in 1 Cor. 15:20 & 23 when He rose from among the dead. This shared title of the "First-fruits" tells us that these 144,000 were raised to life again in the same FIRST bodily resurrection event, which is what happened to the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints coming out of those broken-open graves around Jerusalem.
Therefore, the 144,000 First-fruits were the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints which the risen Christ resurrected out of their graves that same day as He arose. The 144,000 Matt. 27 saints never died again (an impossibility for a bodily-resurrected saint to do according to Luke 20:36). So where do you think the 144,000 Matt. 27 saints went after going into Jerusalem to be seen of many? Since they were incapable of dying again, they "remained" on the earth, just like Paul wrote that the church had the First-fruits among them in Romans 8:23. They were waiting to join the rest of the resurrected saints in a transportation to heaven at Christ's return.
You presume that this second coming return has yet to happen, when Christ said that He would return before that generation had all passed away (Luke 21:32) - and before some of those He personally spoke to had died (Matt. 16:27-28). Straight from the Word of God - no personal imagination involved here.
Your own interpretation leads to having these 144,000 Matt. 27:52-53 First-fruits still being alive on earth today, still waiting to be taken to heaven.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
We can both make the point that the white horse riders will eventually include the 144k.
The point is, Jesus returns in vs 14 sitting on a cloud, holding a sickle, to gather the main harvest AFTER the 144k gathering,
No white horses are there in either gathering.
Are you aware of "SETTING" in any of the verses?????????
Similar threads
