rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Yes many will stay.
But the pretrib rapture verses stand alone...away from your reach.
The 144,000 before God at the end.
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But the pretrib rapture verses stand alone...away from your reach.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
The Second Coming is the 6th Seal. You have fallen away into the apostate church's post everything mentality.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
So the church is only made up of natural branches from physical birth, as in only a few are elect, sans no choice of their own? You have spiritualized physical Jacob. Instead of Israel, you have physical Jacob, and nothing spiritual at all.
Then stop trying to contort Him into one.
The only fools are those like yourself who refuse to recognize that God is no respecter of persons, who accepts "in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness." Acts 10:34-35
You don't. I had to tell you that he was a Chaldean.
In the same way that God recognizes the European races and the Asian races and the Oriental races and all other races.
In which He saves all who will receive Him in faith and obedience.
Irrespective of their physical DNA.
Kindergarten Sunday School stuff.
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Timtofly
Well-Known Member
That is why the church is not Jacob. Nor his offspring, by birth. The 144k are Jacob's offspring by birth.
The 144K were "of all the tribes of the children of Israel". Revelation 7:4
The tribes were not limited to "Jacob's offspring by birth."
The tribes included Gentiles. Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
That is why the Church is Jacob, as well as Israel. Now if you say that the 144000 are jacobs natural seed, that's promoting Salvation by ethnicity, the flesh distinction, which denies Grace and is frankly apostate from the Faith
Gentiles were included in the nation of Israel.
So they're certainly also included in the 144K.
Because God is not a racist.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
No, one point is a belief system, ie Israel is the church.
The other point is that some are natural branches, because that is how Paul defined them. Are you saying Paul is a racist in Romans 11?
I told you they are not redeemed because they are descendants of Jacob. They are redeemed because that is what John wrote happens to 144k people on the earth after the church has been removed.
They are not "saved" as you put it. They are physically removed from Adam's dead corruptible flesh, and their souls placed into permanent incorruptible physical bodies. They are not in heaven with the church. They are on the earth with Jesus and the angels during the final harvest. They are not saved because of their ethnic birth. They are removed from Adam's dead flesh, because God chose to gather them as the firstfruits of the final harvest. They had no choice in the matter. They do represent the 12 tribes of Jacob on the earth.
If you want to call God racist for that, that is your own made up opinion, and not Scripture.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
They were Jews, because the primary focus of the 3.5 years of Jesus' ministry and the following 3.5 years of His disciples' ministry, was the Jews. (Romans 1:16; Acts 3:25-26; Acts 13:46)
Luke, who became a later disciple and NT author, was a Gentile.
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Timtofly
Well-Known Member
So why not call that racist, because Jesus having 144k firstfruits after the Second Coming while physically on the earth is the same thing? The 144k are not the only harvest. The sheep are of Jacob, and the wheat are of all the Gentiles harvested during the final harvest, after the Second Coming. The Second Coming is just as physical as the first coming. This time bigger and better.
There are still nations on the earth after the Second Coming. Revelation 11:15
"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."
All those kingdoms represent different nations. There are still ethnic groups on the earth.
Jesus ministered to Gentiles (Matthew 8:28-34; Matthew 15:21-28). Nothing racist about that.
God deliberately excluding faithful obedient Gentiles from the 144K would be racist. There would be no defensible reason for Him to do so.
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Davy
Well-Known Member
WRONG! again, except this time it's rebuilder 454 pushing a lie from men's doctrines.
There is NO pre-trib rapture idea written in God's Word. That is a lie created by the children of darkness, the many antichrists. It is designed to cause those who won't listen to God in HIS Word to flee to the fake-Christ who comes first.
Lord Jesus Christ gave us the details of what to be watching at the end of this world leading up to His future return, and the first warning He gave us was to NOT allow any man to deceive us! (Matthew 24).
The Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture is where Jesus reveals the time of His coming to gather His Church is "Immediately after the tribulation...". So those on man's FALSE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEORY have NO excuse.
So go ahead, if you want to be the 1st one TAKEN, which is to the Antichrist-fake-Messiah which comes first, fine, that means more room in Christ's future Kingdom for us who DO heed His Word, and listen to HIM instead!
Davy
Well-Known Member
There you go pushing LIES against me again. Anyone reading your posts of what you have said about Christ's future coming to gather His Church shows you still have elements of man's FALSE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEORY.
The 6th Seal of Revelation 6 indeed IS... about the day of Christ's future coming to gather His Church, on the LAST DAY of this present world, called the "day of the Lord" in Bible Scripture. And that 'day' also is the event of the 7th Trumpet, and the 7th Vial.
This means of course -- Christ's coming to gather His Church will ONLY happen AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION, on the last day of this world. That is what Bible Scripture emphatically shows as written. Anything else is a LIE against The Word of God.
Salvation by ethnicity, the flesh distinction, which denies Grace and is frankly apostate from the Faith
Davy
Well-Known Member
Yep! Even those of the 'seed' of Israel MUST ALSO CONFESS Christ Jesus to be saved. No exceptions.
However, per Apostle Paul in Romans 11, he said many of his Jewish brethren were spiritual blinded by God, away from The Gospel so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles, and for those of us in Christ to not be conceited, because when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, their blindness away from The Gospel will be removed.
In Luke 23:27-31, Jesus told the "Daughters of Jerusalem" that wept for Him on His way to be crucified, to not weep for Him, but for theirselves, and for their children. Because the days would come when they shall say, "Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck." And then... those same deceived Jews would wish for the mountains and hills to fall on them (a sign of their shame).
Luke 23:28-30
28 But Jesus turning unto them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, "Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck."
30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, "Fall on us"; and to the hills, "Cover us."
KJV
That "Blessed are the barren... " idea is about the faithful 'chaste virgins' that are not deceived and wait on The True Christ to return, instead of falling away to the Antichrist that comes first. It is in a spiritual sense. If you remained spiritually barren, without child, it means you waited on Christ to come.
If you spiritually are found not barren, but with child, it means you fell away to the false-Christ that comes first, thinking he was Lord Jesus. So a spiritual chaste virgin vs. a spiritual harlot is the idea Jesus was showing.
And those spiritually found with child when Jesus does return, they will wish for the mountains and hills to fall on them, which is a show of their shame at having been fooled in worshiping the wrong Christ.
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