The 144,000 before God at the end.

[David in NJ]

A different option is that they are exactly what the Word says they are. I think I'll go with the truth of the Word of God.

The overwhelming evidence of Scripture points to 144k as being symbolic.

Believe the Word that spoke these things when HE walked this earth.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

The overwhelming evidence of Scripture points to 144k as being symbolic.

Well I guess you are overwhelmed. You can present this evidence, maybe I'll be overwhelmed - haven't seen it yet.

 

[David in NJ]

Well I guess you are overwhelmed. You can present this evidence, maybe I'll be overwhelmed - haven't seen it yet.

Love your response.

 

[amigo de christo]

Love your response.

Its not symbolic my friend . Nor is it all of the jews either . it is very specific . they are virgins .
But it also mentions the far larger number of the saved that came out of ALL tribes .
The one hundred and forty four thousand . This does not mean only a hundred and forty four thousand jewish born
will be saved . IT means yes they are jews , but they also were virgins , not defiled with women .
There are things we do not understand . All i know for sure is this , DO NOT follow pre trib
or any other doctrines of men , like osas or other things . cause if you examine the doctrine
You will see ITS TWISTED DOCTRINE to simply fit their own teachings .
IF any doctrine has to be twisted and what it orginally says , IS OMITTED and replaced with an understanding
that contradicts what it simply said , WE FLEE IT .
Be encouraged my friend .

 

[David in NJ]

Well I guess you are overwhelmed. You can present this evidence, maybe I'll be overwhelmed - haven't seen it yet.

It has been 2,000 years since the LORD Jesus Christ and the Apostles.

You, myself and the world have been 'overwhelmed' with religion and all the teachings that sprang forth from her.

The KEY is to allow oneself to be emptied of religion and filled with the Holy Spirit which frees the mind from the teachings of men.

Complete reliance on the Holy Spirit when reading/studying the Scriptures will Open UP the Scriptures to see and hear the Harmony.

Like this: John 1:10-13
He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become sons of God, to those who believe in His name:
who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[David in NJ]

Its not symbolic my friend . Nor is it all of the jews either . it is very specific . they are virgins .
But it also mentions the far larger number of the saved that came out of ALL tribes .
The one hundred and forty four thousand . This does not mean only a hundred and forty four thousand jewish born
will be saved . IT means yes they are jews , but they also were virgins , not defiled with women .
There are things we do not understand . All i know for sure is this , DO NOT follow pre trib
or any other doctrines of men , like osas or other things . cause if you examine the doctrine
You will see ITS TWISTED DOCTRINE to simply fit their own teachings .
IF any doctrine has to be twisted and what it orginally says , IS OMITTED and replaced with an understanding
that contradicts what it simply said , WE FLEE IT .
Be encouraged my friend .

JESUS says: "the flesh profits nothing"

144k is symbolic AND the "virginity" is symbolic as well...........Peace

 

[amigo de christo]

JESUS says: "the flesh profits nothing"

144k is symbolic as is the "virginity"

The hundred and forty four is also mentioned in the wall . The wall is one hundred and forty four cubits high .
The same wall goes all around the entire city . I have often wondered if it is connected
to the one hundred and forty four thousand . But have no idea if it is or not .

 

[covenantee]

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – His Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful obedient saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:
Judah means “praise” (Gen 29:35)
Reuben means “see, a Son” (Gen 29:32)
Gad means “fortunate” (Gen 30:11)
Asher means “happy” (Gen 30:13)
Naphtali means “wrestling” (Gen 30:8)
Manasseh means “forgetting” (Gen 41:51)
Simeon means “heard” (Gen 29:33)
Levi means “attached” (Gen 29:34)
Issachar means “wages” (Gen 30:18)
Zebulon means “dwelling” (Gen 30:20)
Joseph means “He will add” (Gen 30:24)
Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Gen 35:17–18)

Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:

Dan means “a serpent by the way”(Genesis 49:17)
Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.

Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)
The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and unity of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and unity are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.

 

[amigo de christo]

JESUS says: "the flesh profits nothing"

144k is symbolic AND the "virginity" is symbolic as well...........Peace

The flesh profits nothing . Lets remind the churches in christedom of this .
cause i am seein a fat ol lie which seems to teach and to say otherwise .
FOr it teaches , muslims , atheists , buddists and whateverists are saved and fine as is
so long as they have them some lovey do and unity . YUR RIGHT MY FRIEND .
the flesh profits nothing . YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN .
And as you KNOW and know well , BUDDA , faith in budda or the islam or whatever , AINT being born again at all .
ITS FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST and HE ALONE . Thanks for the reminder .
SO let none of us believe a love which tries to say as long as ye love it dont matter what religoin one is .
Cause , yeah that be a lie . And it sure aint THE LOVE that cometh of GOD either .
And we have BELIEVED THE LOVE That cometh of GOD . JESUS CHRIST . That is the love of GOD and the love
that cometh of GOD . Any other love that tries to say otherwise , ITS COMING of the world , of men and of the dragon .
AS i am SURE You do agree .

 

[David in NJ]

The hundred and forty four is also mentioned in the wall . The wall is one hundred and forty four cubits high .
The same wall goes all around the entire city . I have often wondered if it is connected
to the one hundred and forty four thousand . But have no idea if it is or not .

And there is your DIRECT CONNECTION to the 144k

 

[amigo de christo]

Preach CHRIST JESUS to the last and final breath .
Onwards in the Lord my friend .

 

[David in NJ]

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – His Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful obedient saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:
Judah means “praise” (Gen 29:35)
Reuben means “see, a Son” (Gen 29:32)
Gad means “fortunate” (Gen 30:11)
Asher means “happy” (Gen 30:13)
Naphtali means “wrestling” (Gen 30:8)
Manasseh means “forgetting” (Gen 41:51)
Simeon means “heard” (Gen 29:33)
Levi means “attached” (Gen 29:34)
Issachar means “wages” (Gen 30:18)
Zebulon means “dwelling” (Gen 30:20)
Joseph means “He will add” (Gen 30:24)
Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Gen 35:17–18)

Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:
Dan means “a serpent by the way”(Genesis 49:17)
Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.

Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)
The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and unity of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and unity are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.

@covenantee says: The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.

@David in NJ says: SHOUT IT OUT and REJOICE

 

[David in NJ]

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – His Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful obedient saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:
Judah means “praise” (Gen 29:35)
Reuben means “see, a Son” (Gen 29:32)
Gad means “fortunate” (Gen 30:11)
Asher means “happy” (Gen 30:13)
Naphtali means “wrestling” (Gen 30:8)
Manasseh means “forgetting” (Gen 41:51)
Simeon means “heard” (Gen 29:33)
Levi means “attached” (Gen 29:34)
Issachar means “wages” (Gen 30:18)
Zebulon means “dwelling” (Gen 30:20)
Joseph means “He will add” (Gen 30:24)
Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Gen 35:17–18)

Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:
Dan means “a serpent by the way”(Genesis 49:17)
Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.

Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)
The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and unity of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and unity are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.

"they are virgins not defiled by women"

women are symbolic of the many many religions in the world = the daughters of the Harlot of Babylon

 

[amigo de christo]

And there is you DIRECT CONNECTION to the 144k

concering the wall . IT does surround the entire city .
If one enters not in through the door , THEY WONT be climbing over the wall either .
THERE is but one name we must preach . JESUS CHRIST .
Let no man fall for the whims of the harlot who has pumped out her all inclusive many path unity false love to GOD LIE .
Cause , they wont be entering into the kingdom .
Into the glorious KINGDOM OF OUR LORD . Wherein that city , that heavenly jersualem , GOD AND THE LAMB are THE TEMPLE OF IT .
Ever wonder why it says GOD and the LAMB . Marvel not . I am the first and the last .
Besides me , THERE IS NO SAVOIR . GOD IS HIS WORD and HIS WORD BE HE . And all other religoins
and any other love that denies the absolute dire necessity to believe on CHRIST , is a LIE .
I BANK ON THAT TOO .
I am so fully persauded that i will say this . ANY who denies JESUS IS THE CHRIST
DENIES GOD . oh yeah . THAT IS TRUTH .
IF we DENY JESUS CHRIST , WE DENIED GOD . And i am FULLY PERSAUDED OF THAT .

 

[David in NJ]

concering the wall . IT does surround the entire city .
If one enters not in through the door , THEY WONT be climbing over the wall either .
THERE is but one name we must preach . JESUS CHRIST .
Let no man fall for the whims of the harlot who has pumped out her all inclusive many path unity false love to GOD LIE .
Cause , they wont be entering into the kingdom .
Into the glorious KINGDOM OF OUR LORD . Wherein that city , that heavenly jersualem , GOD AND THE LAMB are THE TEMPLE OF IT .
Ever wonder why it says GOD and the LAMB . Marvel not . I am the first and the last .
Besides me , THERE IS NO SAVOIR . GOD IS HIS WORD and HIS WORD BE HE . And all other religoins
and any other love that denies the absolute dire necessity to believe on CHRIST , is a LIE .
I BANK ON THAT TOO .
I am so fully persauded that i will say this . ANY who denies JESUS IS THE CHRIST
DENIES GOD . oh yeah . THAT IS TRUTH .
IF we DENY JESUS CHRIST , WE DENIED GOD . And i am FULLY PERSAUDED OF THAT .

AGREE

@amigo de christo points to the Walls of the City lead to only One Door/Entrance = 1 Peter ch2

"Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ."

 

[amigo de christo]

HE who rejects ME , rejects HE who SENT ME . YEAH , BUDDA cant save , nor can any other religoin .
GOD SAVES . JESUS SAVES . BELIEVE YE IN THE CHRIST OF GOD .
BE as was abraham . GOD SAID and abraham BELIEVED . IF JESUS SAYS IT , BELIEVE IT .
Cause if JESUS said it , I GOT A SERIOUS NEWS FLASH . GOD SAID IT .

 

[amigo de christo]

AGREE

@amigo de christo points to the Walls of the City lead to only One Door/Entrance = 1 Peter ch2

"Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ."

Never let this generation STEAL the diety of CHRIST for a lie .
REMEMBER , IF JESUS SAID IT , GOD SAID IT . GOD IS HIS WORD and HIS WORD IS HE .
They are coming after this in order to deny JESUS CHRIST and to build a religoin that makes all religions as equals and valid
in the EYES of GOD . ITS A LIE FROM HELL and of the dragon . Course , i believe i am preaching to the choir on this one .
BUT still , IREMIND US ALL .

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

It has been 2,000 years since the LORD Jesus Christ and the Apostles.

You, myself and the world have been 'overwhelmed' with religion and all the teachings that sprang forth from her.

The KEY is to allow oneself to be emptied of religion and filled with the Holy Spirit which frees the mind from the teachings of men.

Complete reliance on the Holy Spirit when reading/studying the Scriptures will Open UP the Scriptures to see and hear the Harmony.

Like this: John 1:10-13
He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become sons of God, to those who believe in His name:
who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

We weren't "born again" of blood. That is not the evidence that overwhelmed you concerning the 144k. So where is it?

 

[amigo de christo]

AGREE

@amigo de christo points to the Walls of the City lead to only One Door/Entrance = 1 Peter ch2

"Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ."

Hit the trenches david . THINGS will get only worse and fast in these last days .

 

[David in NJ]

We weren't "born again" of blood. That is not the evidence that overwhelmed you concerning the 144k. So where is it?

Correct as you say: "We weren't "born again" of blood." = this underscores the symbolism of the 144k

John 1:10-13 is your starting point and your first LOOK at the evidence which builds upon this Foundation.