David in NJ
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Excellent Post EXCEPT for = "In the words of John in Revelation 20, Satan will "be loosed for a little while."
That short little phrase/verse 100% denies the plausibility and possibilty of 'amil'.
The 144,000 before God at the end.
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That short little phrase/verse 100% denies the plausibility and possibilty of 'amil'.
Well, I appreciate your opinion, David, but... we disagree on that, apparently.
Not at all. I would be somewhat interested to know why you think that.
Grace and peace to you.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Satan is not locked up until Christ Returns and the First Resurrection takes place.
Rev ch20
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
ewq1938
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No, believing this is the Millennium is a denial of reality.
We cannot be in the thousand years right now or any time in the past for this very simple reason:
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Verse 4 says there are people that were beheaded in the tribulation because they refused to worship the beast and take the mark of the beast. That is found in Rev 13 so by Rev 20, the tribulation is over. That means before the thousand years even begins the tribulation found in Rev 13 is over. We therefore cannot be in the thousand years now because the beast did not rise up, the Antichrist did not rise up, and the mark of the beast does not exist yet nor is anyone being beheaded for refusing to worship the beast or take his mark.
If the tribulation found in Rev 13 has not yet happened, then the thousand years has not yet begun. That alone proves the Amil position to be false.
The second thing this proves is that the first resurrection has not yet occurred because it also only comes after the tribulation has ended.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: (this is the first of two throne judgments found in the chapter) and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; (these died in the great tribulation) and they lived (same word Christ used about his own resurrection) and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. (this proves the dead do not resurrect at the same time) This is the first resurrection. (John revisits what the first resurrection is in the next verse)
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God (verb is in the future tense) and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years (verb is in the future tense).
Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
So, the mark only exists when the second beast, the false prophet, gives life to the image of the first beast and then causes all to receive a mark. If they already had the mark these verses would be untrue. This is the first time the mark of the beast is given to anyone. And it only happens during the 42 month tribulation.
The thousand years doesn't even begin until the saints refuse the mark and are beheaded either by the false prophet or those loyal to him during those 42 months. After that period ends, Christ returns and will resurrect those who were beheaded. That's all before Satan is bound in the pit and before the thousand years starts.
As the OP shows, Amil is a false doctrine because it teaches the thousand years is happening since the cross yet ignores all the things that have to happen before the thousand years even begins which are:
All things that must happen before the thousand years even begins
The rise of the first beast. (Found in Rev 13 which shows the beginning events of the tribulation)
The rise of the second beast. (Found in Rev 13 which shows the beginning events of the tribulation)
The creation of the image of the beast. (Found in Rev 13 which shows the beginning events of the tribulation)
The second beast giving life to the image of the beast. (Found in Rev 13 which shows the beginning events of the tribulation)
People given the mark of the beast. (Found in Rev 13 which shows the beginning events of the tribulation)
The full 1260 days ministry of the two witnesses. (Found in Rev 11 which shows mid and ending events of the tribulation)
The public murdering of the two prophets. (Found in Rev 11 which shows mid and ending events of the tribulation)
Their bodies lying in the street of Jerusalem. (Found in Rev 11 which shows mid and ending events of the tribulation)
The resurrection of the two prophets and ascending into heaven. (Found in Rev 11 which shows mid and ending events of the tribulation)
The sounding of the 7th trumpet/3rd woe which is when the second coming occurs. (Found in Rev 11 which shows mid and ending events of the tribulation)
The battle of Rev 19 and defeat of the beast and army. (Rev 19)
Beast and false prophet cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20)
The resurrection of the beheaded dead of Rev 20. (Rev 20)
Casting Satan into the pit. (Rev 20)
THEN AND ONLY then does the thousand years begin. (Rev 20)
All those things must happen first before the thousand years is said to start and it is all because of one verse:
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
These saints who were beheaded in the tribulation are brought back to life before the thousand years begins which means the tribulation period they died in had to happen first and there are a huge list of major events that happen in that tribulation period and just after it ends. All of the list happens before the thousand years begins.
Ah. Well, there's a disagreement among many, and possibly even among "Amills" ~ concerning the first resurrection... what it is and when it actually takes place in relation to the millennium. Perhaps you will disagree, but most "Amills" believe the first resurrection to be what Paul talks about in Ephesians 2:4-11. This is our spiritual "raising to the heavenly places in Christ," For believers, there are two resurrections from the dead, the first spiritual ~ and individual, at some point within the individual's life on earth ~ and the second physical, at the time of Christ's return, along with unbelievers. Maybe we disagree on that...
...and also that Satan is not "locked up." :) As Jesus says, "...how can someone enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house" (Matthew's account, Matthew 12:29); "But no one can enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. Then indeed he may plunder his house" (Mark's account, Mark 3:27).
Satan is bound, and Jesus is plundering Satan's house.
Certainly I can read... :)
Grace and peace.
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In your opinion. Yes, I well understand your thinking, but no... :) Do you not believe you have tribulation, EWQ? Everybody obviously and unquestionably does, whether you do or not. Life is hard.
Wow. Such misunderstanding..., and denial...
Grace and peace to you, EWQ.
David, I'm sure you realize that there will be only one physical resurrection of the dead, and that will be when the last trump sounds in an hour that is coming? And when this physical resurrection comes, those who have done good to resurrection life, and those who have done evil resurrected to damnation.
John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
It is at this physical resurrection that the dead in Christ shall be bodily resurrected to immortality and incorruption.
1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Understanding there shall be only one bodily resurrection of the dead when the last trump sounds, how can the first resurrection be after the thousand years expire? The martyred souls in heaven have already partaken of the first resurrection since in life they lived and reigned with Christ. The passage tells us these faithful saints lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years, but it also says there will be others who shall also reign with Christ a thousand years. To live and reign with Christ a thousand years is to be called holy and blessed, have part in the first resurrection, and overcome the second death.
In light of this understanding, please explain how the first resurrection for living and reigning with Christ is physical and after the thousand years expire?
ewq1938
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Yeah, but not coming from my side of things.
Amil's thousand years rod of iron reign: an utter mess with Satan in control and overcoming the gospel and the saints with Islam growing stronger and larger and more deadly day by day, Christianity shrinking, deceptions and lies increasing, the rise of gangs, violence, drug addiction, abortions, gay and trans movements, homelessness and Atheism dominating this world.
Premil's thousand years rod of iron reign: Satan unable to do anything evil, no killing of the saints and not even possible to kill them as they are immortal, peace for the first time in human history and nothing that can stop or fight against the gospel for the first time in history, Islam defeated, all false religions defeated, Christ and his Saints fully in charge with no possible resistance from anyone. A global Christian theocracy for the first time in human history.
Which reign of iron by Christ and his Saints do you think will be a reality? Which one is better? Which one is scriptural? The answer to all these questions is Premill's thousand years rod of iron reign. :)
If the thousand years are future, why does John write these martyred saints "lived and reigned" with Christ in life and were "beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" ???? IOW in life or during this period John writes "a thousand years" these living souls were faithful unto death. This is depicting trial and tribulation that comes upon believers during their lifetimes, not after this time has ended. That's why John is shown that death had no power over them, because in life they were faithful in Christ, so death could not hold them. They are spiritually alive in heaven after physical death because in life they had part in Christ's resurrection. So in death they are of the first resurrection and spiritually ascended to heaven with the Lord.
Well, understood, but your side of things is... God knows where. We'll just say... way out there... LOL!
Grace and peace to you.
David in NJ
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Truly our spirits are Born-Again BEFORE the First Resurrection from the Grave = John ch3 and Ephesians ch2
The First Resurrection of Rev ch20 is the SAME Resurrection spoken of by the LORD in John ch11 , Matthew 22:29-32 , Dan 12:1-3
This First Resurrection is only for the Saints/Elect, their dead bodies/bones rising from the Grave/Earth.
Anyone who confuses these two separate accounts are themselves confused/mislead by religion.
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Truly our spirits are Born-Again BEFORE the First Resurrection from the Grave = John ch3 and Ephesians ch2 and 1 Peter 1:23
The First Resurrection of Rev ch20 is the SAME Resurrection spoken of by the LORD in John ch11 , Matthew 22:29-32 , Dan 12:1-3 ,
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 , 1 Corinthians ch15 and Revelation 2:8-11
This First Resurrection is only for the Saints/Elect, their dead bodies/bones rising from the Grave/Earth.
Anyone who confuses these two separate accounts are themselves confused/mislead by religion.
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No, this IS the first resurrection. It is a raising to life in Christ after having been previously dead in sin. If you disagree, then, well, we can agree to disagree; it's not a salvific matter in that one cannot be saved or can somehow lose his/her salvation because he or she is wrong on this point.
If you are talking about Jesus's raising of Lazarus, I would submit to you that this is a picture of what our second resurrection ~ and the resurrection of all ~ will look like... physical. And this is the resurrection spoken of in Revelation 20:12-14, which occurs after Jesus's return and is physical in nature (our souls are reunited with our bodies), as opposed to the one spoken of in Revelation 20:4-6, which occurs during the millennium for each and every one of us Christians, each at our own appointed time, and is spiritual in nature (we are made alive and placed in Christ and thus made slaves to righteousness... after having previously been dead in our sin and slaves to unrighteousness).
Here too the second ~ physical ~ resurrection is in view.
Agreed. Everyone else remains dead in their sin and slaves to unrighteousness ~ they are of their father the devil.
This is the second resurrection, and it is general. It is spoken of by Jesus in John 5:28-29... "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."
I agree. :) Just... I would say... not understanding correctly. :) There is no need or call for a belittling or demeaning countenance, David. :)
Grace and peace to you.
The act of being born again of the Spirit is the first resurrection. Christ speaks of this resurrection as His ability to raise up the dead by quickening whom He will.
John 5:21 (KJV) For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
This quickening (making alive) by Christ is not physical resurrecting the physically dead. This quickening comes to those who hear His Word and believe while physically alive. Those who believe HATH (not will have) everlasting life. The hour or time was coming before the advent of Christ, now is when the dead hear His voice and live.
John 5:24-25 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Who are the dead, who NOW hear His voice and have everlasting life? It certainly is NOT the physically dead, but those who are dead in trespasses and sins. They are the spiritually dead who must be made spiritually alive before they physically die to have everlasting life in Him. Before hearing the Gospel and believing we are among the dead. Once we hear and believe we have everlasting life, and this is the first resurrection we MUST have part in to be blessed and holy, and overcome the second death.
Ephesians 2:1 (KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Ephesians 2:4-6 (KJV) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.
When our spirit is born again by His Spirit upon hearing the Gospel and believing our spirit has been made spiritually alive in Christ and can never die. This is the first resurrection for those who were once dead in trespasses and sins, now spiritually alive, and our spirit through His Spirit in us can NEVER die.
The first resurrection is not from the grave. NONE will be resurrected from the graves until the last trump sounds an hour that is coming when ALL the dead (physically) will be resurrected to immortal, incorruptible physical bodies for life, OR resurrected to damnation. Depending upon whether in life they have done good or evil, which shall be dependent upon having part in the first resurrection of spiritual life from spiritual death.
The only mention of resurrection in Scripture is the "first resurrection" and the "resurrection of the dead." The first resurrection is from spiritual death to spiritual life in this time symbolized a thousand years, and the resurrection of the dead shall be when the last trump sounds the hour has come when ALL THE DEAD (physically) shall be bodily resurrected to life or condemnation.
I'm being a little nit-picky here, but Scripture never speaks of a "second resurrection." I think calling the physical/bodily resurrection in the hour coming a second resurrection causes confusion. It makes some believe there will be two physical resurrections separated by one thousand years.
Well, in the beginning part of Revelation 20, it speaks of those who are blessed to participate in the first resurrection. So by inference, there must be a second resurrection (else John would not specify the first as "first"), and those who participate in it are, well, not necessarily blessed, as opposed to unequivocally not blessed. Plus, it mirrors the fact that there is ~ and this is explicit in Scripture ~ a first and a second death.
Well, maybe, but it shouldn't... :) There is only one physical resurrection (except for Lazarus, Jairus's daughter, and... I think that's all... Our resurrections will be just like Jesus's... our second resurrection, that is.
This may be a bit of overkill, but...
The language of the first resurrection obviously implies that there is a second. In this context, the first and second resurrections have a suggestive relation to the first and second death. The mention of the second death in 20:6 clearly implies a first. And we know from the general teaching of Scripture what both of these are. The first death is bodily death. The second death is consignment to hell, the final abode of the wicked (20:14-15). The second death is spiritual in character, and accompanies bodily resurrection (John 5:29). The first death is preliminary, while the second death is final and irreversible. It is last. As there is a first heaven and earth and a second or last (Rev. 21:1), so there is a first and last death. Moreover, the first death, in its curse character, is a sign of the coming of the more terrible second death (cf. Gen. 3:19).
These facts provide the decisive clues for understanding the first and the second resurrection. The first resurrection is preliminary, while the second resurrection is final and last. The second resurrection is clearly bodily resurrection. It is clearly the remedy for the first death, bodily death. Conversely, the first resurrection is a kind of remedy for the second death, according to 20:6. The first resurrection guarantees freedom from the second death. The various symmetries suggest that the first resurrection, like the second death, is paradoxical in character. As the second death implicitly includes and accompanies an act of bodily resurrection, so the first resurrection implicitly includes and accompanies bodily death. We find an allusion to just this bodily death in 20:4, the souls of those who had been beheaded. The phrase refers to those who have suffered martyrdom for not worshiping the Beast. These are now disembodied souls living in the presence of God and of Christ, as represented in 6:9-10. The important thing to see is that these souls are living, triumphant, because of their union with Christ and victory through his blood (12:11). The assertion and enjoyment of their triumph is not simply postponed until the Second Coming. They enjoy victory even at the moment of the death, for God places them in positions of authority and judgment in the heavenly realms (thrones, v. 4). The judges and earthly authorities who condemned them to death are already beaten by this greater authority that the saints exercise in heaven.1
The picture in 20:4-6 thus answers a very pressing and practical problem during times of intense persecution. When Christians are a tiny, powerless minority, when great imperial powers are arrayed against them, is there any hope for victory? What happens when Christians see some of their brothers and sisters put to death? It appears to worldly eyes that Christians have been decisively defeated. The world has won the battle. The persecuting governors are very much alive and as powerful as ever, while the Christians have been simply wiped out. Christianity appears to be a meaningless, hopelessly weak religion. Does God not care? Is he really in control? And what could possibly undo the defeat that Christians have suffered through their martyrdom? 20:4-6 answers that heavenly realities must be included in true reckoning. And when we see these realities, the tables are completed turned. Defeating Christians is impossible. Even when demonic forces rage and strut and do their utmost, they only succeed in establishing Christians in positions of real and permanent power!
Grace and peace to you, RWB.
jeffweeder
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I wonder about how long a physical body will last in the fire prepared for the devil and his angels (spirits)
How that lump of flesh can burn forever and forever is doing my head in.
This is assumption! John writes "first resurrection" to show a dramatic difference between those who are ALIVE after physical death, and those who physically die and will be physically resurrected to damnation. Yes, there is a second death! It is for this reason that in this life, or as John writes time, symbolized a thousand years we must have part in the first resurrection to assure we overcome the second death. Unlike physical death, none will be resurrected from the second death.
These martyred are in heaven spiritually alive because in life before death they had part in the first (spiritual) resurrection in Christ. Physical death has no power over them, and because they are spiritually alive when the last trumpet sounds, they shall be bodily resurrected immortal and incorruptible.
No it doesn't! It is simply something assumed that Scripture nowhere speaks of a second resurrection. Why? Because there will not be two physical resurrections from the dead. There will be only one bodily resurrection of ALL in the graves for life, or damnation. Those who have part in the first resurrection before death shall be resurrected to life and those who have not part in the first resurrection before death shall be resurrected to condemnation.
I stopped using this unbiblical depiction (second resurrection) once I understood how it causes many to believe there will be two physical resurrections separated by one thousand years.
Grace & Peace to you also.
I don't even go there! I only know that however the second death is accomplished in the lake of fire, I would rather not experience. Because this I do know, it will not be pleasant, and will not restore us to life again.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
If you are unable to distinguish between being Born-Again by the Spirit and the First Resurrection of the Saints who died and their bodies/bones in the "Dust of the Earth"/Graves, then you are unable to correctly discern Revelation.
Spiritual Resurrection ONLY = "Born-Again" = John ch3 , Ephesians ch2 , 1 Peter ch1
First Resurrection from the GRAVE/EARTH = John ch11 , Matt ch22 , 1 Thess 4:13-18 , 1 Cor ch15 , Revelation ch20
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