The 144,000 before God at the end.

[Timtofly]

You disbelieve two Israels ("all Israel" and "of Israel") in Romans 9:6.

You are a disbeliever.

Or can you simply not count to 2?

You just don't accept the fact they were cut off and ended up in sheol. So your second Israel is cooling off in sheol.

It is like saying there are 2 churches. One is in Christ, the other cut off and also fraternizing with that 2nd Israel in sheol.

You can count those in sheol if you like. Perhaps God will give them a second chance at the GWT? Will they give God a second chance though is the question.

 

[Timtofly]

SAME Tribulation = "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

None of that found in the time before The Flood.

Not even here:

"For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,"

The word tribulation is not in there. Just living in sin.

I have never stated that the last 1993 years are void of tribulation. That is the tribulation of those days, the days of the church. The great tribulation that has lasted 1993 years and counting. That is the great tribulation the church has come out of over the last 1993 years. That tribulation.

You keep talking about Jacob's trouble and then claim the church is Jacob.

Sorry but the church is neither Israel nor Gentile. It is Jesus Christ. So you are quoting the wrong tribulation, and claiming the rapture cannot happen at Pentecost. No one said it did. The Second Coming is after the fulness of the Gentiles. That is the church neither Israel nor Gentile. All can be grafted in. There are no natural branches.

 

[Timtofly]

That is the Scriptural Truth and the Answer you need.

Yet not part of this thread, so a moot point here.

 

[Timtofly]

Do you realize how uninformed your statement is in the Light of Scripture!

Here - LOOK again!

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;

Only 8 people made it thru that GREAT TRIBULATION unto Salvation.

Yes and they left earth before that tribulation in an ark. Once inside the ark their feet were no longer on the earth.

You claim they entered the ark after the Flood and endured the Flood through their own strength. You claim the Flood was the tribulation they made it through and then they entered the ark.

 

[covenantee]

You just don't accept the fact they were cut off and ended up in sheol. So your second Israel is cooling off in sheol.

It is like saying there are 2 churches. One is in Christ, the other cut off and also fraternizing with that 2nd Israel in sheol.

You can count those in sheol if you like. Perhaps God will give them a second chance at the GWT? Will they give God a second chance though is the question.

Those "of Israel" who were physically alive when Paul wrote, were not physically in sheol.

Commendations on recognizing them as the "second Israel".

I thought you didn't believe in "two Israels."

My mistake.

 

[David in NJ]

Yes and they left earth before that tribulation in an ark. Once inside the ark their feet were no longer on the earth.

You claim they entered the ark after the Flood and endured the Flood through their own strength. You claim the Flood was the tribulation they made it through and then they entered the ark.

NOPE

They stayed on earth and were protected from the Wrath of God/Flood.

 

[David in NJ]

Yet not part of this thread, so a moot point here.

TRUTH is never moot.

 

[David in NJ]

None of that found in the time before The Flood.

Not even here:

"For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,"

The word tribulation is not in there. Just living in sin.

I have never stated that the last 1993 years are void of tribulation. That is the tribulation of those days, the days of the church. The great tribulation that has lasted 1993 years and counting. That is the great tribulation the church has come out of over the last 1993 years. That tribulation.

You keep talking about Jacob's trouble and then claim the church is Jacob.

Sorry but the church is neither Israel nor Gentile. It is Jesus Christ. So you are quoting the wrong tribulation, and claiming the rapture cannot happen at Pentecost. No one said it did. The Second Coming is after the fulness of the Gentiles. That is the church neither Israel nor Gentile. All can be grafted in. There are no natural branches.

You do not understand what God considers tribulation.

 

[Timtofly]

Those "of Israel" who were physically alive when Paul wrote, were not physically in sheol.

Commendations on recognizing them as the "second Israel".

I thought you didn't believe in "two Israels."

My mistake.

Not what I said. You twist my post like you do Scripture.

All were not dead at the point, some of them had not died yet. Many had. They all died outside of Christ, and outside of Israel. They were cut off, no longer Israel.

 

[Timtofly]

NOPE

They stayed on earth and were protected from the Wrath of God/Flood.

So the animals floated away by themselves, while Noah and family were left behind to fend for themselves?

 

[Timtofly]

TRUTH is never moot.

Well obviously not important enough to be in this thread.

 

[Timtofly]

You do not understand what God considers tribulation.

So living in sin is tribulation?

 

[ewq1938]

NOPE

They stayed on earth and were protected from the Wrath of God/Flood.

But they were lifted higher above the ground of the Earth where they once dwelled. I believe it is related to the rapture in the sense of the lifting up but still being located near the Earth (ground). The clouds are higher of course.

 

[David in NJ]

But they were lifted higher above the ground of the Earth where they once dwelled. I believe it is related to the rapture in the sense of the lifting up but still being located near the Earth (ground). The clouds are higher of course.

Correct

The Ark is symbolic of us being Placed in JESUS = Ephesians 2:4-7

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Just as the Ark was Salvation to Noah and family so also is Christ our Salvation from the coming Wrath = 1 Thess 1:10

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, our Deliverer from the wrath to come.

 

[David in NJ]

So living in sin is tribulation?

ABSOLUTELY = Romans 2:5-11

But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil,
of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
For there is no partiality with God.

 

[David in NJ]

Well, now, someone... :) ... is trying to rewrite the dictionary... every dictionary in every language...

'Tribulation' is defined as "distress or suffering resulting from cruel or unjust treatment or misfortune, and/or a trying experience." In a Biblical context, tribulation intimately and inextricably married to trial, which we all experience in some degree every... well, every day that ends in 'y.' :) And I would say every minute that ends with a 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, or 9. :) Trials/tribulations are a result of sin in the world, for sure... And this is why James says:

"Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing" (James 1:2-4)​

When, not if. :) When you encounter trials (tribulations) of various kinds. And:

• "In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world" (Jesus, John 16:33).
• "...strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22).
• "There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek" (Romans 2:9),
• "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? ... No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romanns 8:35-39).
• "Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer" (Romans 12:12).
• "I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus..." (Revelation 1:9)

The period of tribulation is most certainly now. Anyone who thinks otherwise is... not recognizing reality.

Grace and peace to all.

They are not recognizing nor identifying with Scripture on what is taking place right before our eyes!

And that is the purpose of the falsehood of 'pre-trib' rapture = close their eyes/mind with a false hope.

 

[covenantee]

All were not dead at the point, some of them had not died yet.

Right. They were "of Israel", i.e. the "second Israel".

Thanks for your confirmation.

 

[rwb]

Amill usually claims the trib is over and we are in the Millennium now. We actually are not in either right now but many things are leaning left heavily which could be signs the great tribulation Christ spoke of, and is described in parts of Rev may be on it's way in this generation.

Don't attempt to speak for Amil! Very seldom are your assertions factual. Even if one who says they are Amil believe things that do not agree with Amil doctrine as a whole, it is wrong for you to paint with this broad brush as though Amil broadly and all inclusively teaches the trib is over. The only thing you seem to get when it comes to Amil doctrine is how we Amil Christians believe it is not ONE thousand years but is in fact symbolic of time we've been living in since the first advent of Christ and will not end until the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete. The problem for you is how Amil believers prove from the Word of God why our position is biblical and how believing there will be a literal one thousand more years of time given this earth after Christ comes again is thoroughly debunked by Scripture.

 

[PinSeeker]

Amill usually claims the trib is over and we are in the Millennium now.

No, "Amill" always "claims" ~ asserts, maintains ~ that God's millennium is now, and tribulation is an integral part of it through its entirety, not because "God causes tribulation," but that because of sin there is tribulation, and God is with His people through it, building His Israel even in the midst of it.

We actually are not in either right now...

That's just a denial of reality.

... but many things are leaning left heavily which could be signs the great tribulation Christ spoke of, and is described in parts of Rev may be on it's way in this generation.

Now, here, I am close to agreeing with you. Yes, at the end of the age, there will be a ramping up of the tribulation, so that it might be called 'great,' and, in Jesus's own words, it will be "such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be." In the words of John in Revelation 20, Satan will "be loosed for a little while."

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Yes and they left earth before that tribulation in an ark.

They were carried through the storm/flood by the ark. And in this way, the ark itself is a type, a shadow ~ representative of ~ a saving vessel... a Savior... Jesus Christ Himself, Who, figuratively speaking, carries us through the storms of life ~ tribulation ~ in this fallen world.

Once inside the ark their feet were no longer on the earth.

LOL! Well, they were not standing on the ground, but that's quite irrelevant... :) They were still in the world. :)

You claim the Flood was the tribulation they made it through and then they entered the ark.

Well that would be a pretty silly claim. They entered the ark, and were carried through and thus endured the tribulation. And in that way, it graphically portrays, in an elementary way, what we are figuratively experiencing now.

Goodness gracious.

...did Jesus claim He would return after an indefinite period of time many would call the Millennium?

He said very clearly that there would be tribulation until He returned. And He did not specify how long that would be, even saying that only the Father knows the exact timing. But, to your question, He never said anything about a literal 1,000-year reign, either, Timtofly, so you can't use that against "Amills," because the same argument can be used agains "non-Amills" (either "Pre0mills" or "Post-mills").

Why would Jesus preach there is coming a millennial reign, but only symbolically, not a literal reign coming...

Not even sure what you are trying to (rhetorically, I guess) ask here... There is nothing symbolic about His millennial reign, but only that His reigning as King ~ He acknowledged many times, most notably to Pontius Pilate, Kingship, even in that day ~ is from heaven, and not yet on earth. I'm assuming you're a Christian, Timtofly, so, rhetorically, I would ask you, is Jesus your King? He is, and He reigns now, but not yet on earth in Person... yet. But His reign is... well, certainly not "symbolic," as I said, but as literal as literal can possibly be. Even in the midst of the current tribulation... :) As David sings in Psalm 23, and so we do now,

"The LORD is (our) Shepherd... Even though (we) walk through the valley of the shadow of death, (we) will fear no evil, for You are with (us); Your rod and Your staff, they comfort (us). You prepare a table before (us) in the presence of (our) enemies; You anoint (our) head(s) with oil; (our) cup(s) overflow. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow (us) all the days of (our lives)..."​

Then Jesus preceded to tell every one He would return and have a earthly kingdom. After the kingdom of God which was and is unseen is completed, and glorified in Paradise.

Well, yes, but heaven and earth will be one. Paradise restored, as it was in the beginning, before the Fall of Genesis 3, when Paradise was lost.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations."

Right, and He is talking specifically about the final Judgment that He will execute at that time.

Grace and peace!