The 144,000 before God at the end.

[PinSeeker]

Use verses to prove how you came up with that.

It would be much more practical for you to "use verses to prove" how you come up with a rapture and address it that way. In Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus gives us a very graphic picture of the final Judgment, which occurs immediately (or very shortly) after His return.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[David in NJ]

Rapture is from earth
The gathering of the bride... mat 25.
It is to heaven and is framed BY JESUS pretrib.
Prohesied BY JESUS at the last supper.
The Jews gathered about mid trib and DO NOT precede the dead in Christ raised and raptured pretrib.

You have to undo Gods word to bring in another rapture dynamic.
But you modify it into oblivion by the reckless statement of "no rapture"

Use verses to prove how you came up with that.

If you want to escape judgement = do not add your words upon God's words.

JESUS never said 'pre-trib' = NEVER

JESUS says: "In the world you will have tribulation"

And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.

“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

 

[rebuilder 454]

To the astonishment and shock of pre-tribbers, the Apostle Paul knew about the "last trump":

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trumpet.
For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Last trumpet os sounded every year at the feast of trumpets.
That is the problem with postrib doctrine.
Every cliche' it uses is thought to be pivotal.

 

[rebuilder 454]

If you want to escape judgement = do not add your words upon God's words.

JESUS never said 'pre-trib' = NEVER

JESUS says: "In the world you will have tribulation"

And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.

“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Every rapture verse is life as normal setting
But beyond that Jesus used pretrib WORDING with noah.
Jesus placed the noah example as "before the flood"
You have been shown that.
And yet you change it into "after the flood"
How ridiculous to base your entire doctrine on the verse "after the tribulation"... And then push off the table the rapture verses?????
You can not be that blind to understand "after" actually means "after", then when it says "before",change Gods word, because in your natural mind, you can not accept Gods word when it says "before".
Then, we see every postrib holds so highly to "he that endures to the end shall be saved"
And yet the AC KILLS all refusing the mark.
Not only that postribbers think they are going to escape the AC. They think "enduring" means they mame it to the end of the GT.
Uhhhh, hello, that would mean all the current dead in Christ DID NOT "ENDURE" (the postrib out of context version of it) ,to the end. Some never went through much of any trial.
....AND NO RED FLAGS?????
THANK YOU JESUS FOR YOUR WORD!!!!!

 

[Timtofly]

Yes, you disbelieve God's Word.

You are just plain lying. You are not a mind reader. You cannot even prove this assertion. Just mindless chatter from a liar.

 

[Timtofly]

You ask: "Why has the church been sidetracked by theology that wants to call the 144k the church?

Answer: Revelation chapter 21

Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying,
“Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.”

That is not a definition of the 144k. Try again. You are not even pointing out the theology I am talking about. At least not explicitly. Am I supposed to read your mind or misrepresent your point in an attempt to figure out your point?

The 144k are in contrast to the church. That is why Revelation 7 has two distinct parts.

You could at least use a verse that talks about the 144k.

 

[David in NJ]

That is not a definition of the 144k. Try again. You are not even pointing out the theology I am talking about. At least not explicitly. Am I supposed to read your mind or misrepresent your point in an attempt to figure out your point?

The 144k are in contrast to the church. That is why Revelation 7 has two distinct parts.

You could at least use a verse that talks about the 144k.

SEE = The Bride of Christ

 

[David in NJ]

Every rapture verse is life as normal setting
But beyond that Jesus used pretrib WORDING with noah.
Jesus placed the noah example as "before the flood"
You have been shown that.
And yet you change it into "after the flood"
How ridiculous to base your entire doctrine on the verse "after the tribulation"... And then push off the table the rapture verses?????
You can not be that blind to understand "after" actually means "after", then when it says "before",change Gods word, because in your natural mind, you can not accept Gods word when it says "before".
Then, we see every postrib holds so highly to "he that endures to the end shall be saved"
And yet the AC KILLS all refusing the mark.
Not only that postribbers think they are going to escape the AC. They think "enduring" means they mame it to the end of the GT.
Uhhhh, hello, that would mean all the current dead in Christ DID NOT "ENDURE" (the postrib out of context version of it) ,to the end. Some never went through much of any trial.
....AND NO RED FLAGS?????
THANK YOU JESUS FOR YOUR WORD!!!!!

#1 - Of course JESUS placed Noah BEFORE the Flood = 'no brainer' here

#2 - i NEVER placed Noah after the Flood

#3 - Great Tribulation was on earth for at least 100 Years as Noah was preparing for JUDGEMENT = Hebrews 11:7 , 2 Peter 2:4

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;

You have been Divinely Warned = forsake the lie of 'pre-trib' and prepare as Noah did = believe God's words

 

[David in NJ]

Last trumpet os sounded every year at the feast of trumpets.
That is the problem with postrib doctrine.
Every cliche' it uses is thought to be pivotal.

pre-trib is the master of falsehood = BIG problem

i learned my ABC's a long time ago................

A.) JESUS said: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days..." = Believe JESUS

B.) Apostle Paul said this TWICE: "at the last trump the dead will raise and we will be transformed" = believe the Apostle Paul

C.) Apostle John said this: "little children, as you have heard, the Antichrist is coming" = believe the Apostle John

 

[PinSeeker]

SEE = The Bride of Christ

There's a country song out there, David, that's been around a while, and is appropriate here... You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink...

 

[covenantee]

You are just plain lying. You are not a mind reader. You cannot even prove this assertion. Just mindless chatter from a liar.

You disbelieve two Israels ("all Israel" and "of Israel") in Romans 9:6.

You are a disbeliever.

Or can you simply not count to 2?

 

[Timtofly]

If you want to escape judgement = do not add your words upon God's words.

JESUS never said 'pre-trib' = NEVER

JESUS says: "In the world you will have tribulation"

And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.

“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Not the tribulation in question.

There was no rapture at Pentecost, when that tribulation started.

No one is saying the Second Coming happened at Pentecost, except Preterist. Who claimed it was all over in 70AD.

 

[Timtofly]

SEE = The Bride of Christ

That is not an answer. That is a "go somewhere else, and stop replying to my post."

 

[Timtofly]

#3 - Great Tribulation was on earth for at least 100 Years as Noah was preparing for JUDGEMENT = Hebrews 11:7 , 2 Peter 2:4

Nope.

No tribulation happened. That is called simply living in sin.

No one killed off 97% of Noah's offspring as far as we know for 100 years. You do realize Noah was 500 years old before his three sons were born? Are you saying his children went through tribulation and died?

 

[PinSeeker]

Well, now, someone... :) ... is trying to rewrite the dictionary... every dictionary in every language...

'Tribulation' is defined as "distress or suffering resulting from cruel or unjust treatment or misfortune, and/or a trying experience." In a Biblical context, tribulation intimately and inextricably married to trial, which we all experience in some degree every... well, every day that ends in 'y.' :) And I would say every minute that ends with a 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, or 9. :) Trials/tribulations are a result of sin in the world, for sure... And this is why James says:

"Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing" (James 1:2-4)​

When, not if. :) When you encounter trials (tribulations) of various kinds. And:

• "In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world" (Jesus, John 16:33).
• "...strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22).
• "There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek" (Romans 2:9),
• "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? ... No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romanns 8:35-39).
• "Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer" (Romans 12:12).
• "I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus..." (Revelation 1:9)

The period of tribulation is most certainly now. Anyone who thinks otherwise is... not recognizing reality.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[David in NJ]

Not the tribulation in question.

There was no rapture at Pentecost, when that tribulation started.

No one is saying the Second Coming happened at Pentecost, except Preterist. Who claimed it was all over in 70AD.

SAME Tribulation = "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

 

[David in NJ]

That is not an answer. That is a "go somewhere else, and stop replying to my post."

That is the Scriptural Truth and the Answer you need.

 

[David in NJ]

Nope.

No tribulation happened. That is called simply living in sin.

No one killed off 97% of Noah's offspring as far as we know for 100 years. You do realize Noah was 500 years old before his three sons were born? Are you saying his children went through tribulation and died?

Do you realize how uninformed your statement is in the Light of Scripture!

Here - LOOK again!

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;

Only 8 people made it thru that GREAT TRIBULATION unto Salvation.

 

[David in NJ]

You disbelieve two Israels ("all Israel" and "of Israel") in Romans 9:6.

You are a disbeliever.

Or can you simply not count to 2?

Or can you simply not count to 2? - LOL

 

[ewq1938]

The period of tribulation is most certainly now.

Amill usually claims the trib is over and we are in the Millennium now. We actually are not in either right now but many things are leaning left heavily which could be signs the great tribulation Christ spoke of, and is described in parts of Rev may be on it's way in this generation.