The 144,000 before God at the end.

[PinSeeker]

Are we still at the time of the Flood or how the Ark is a type of Christ?

We are in the time period that the time of the flood signifies, and the ark is a type of Christ and is thus representative of Him in that He carries us though all trial and tribulation and sustains us to the end. The Old Testament is filled with what we might call object lessons like this.

So Christ cannot be on the earth during the GT...

Well, He's always with us in the Spirit (but not yet in Person, of course), just as He said He would be (Matthew 28:19).

...the ark as a type of Christ has to be literally on the earth instead of protection from the judgment of the Flood?...

Hm... well, I would replace 'instead of' with 'as,' here. Then, we'd be good.

The whole point is that the church is not in the ark as a type.

Noah and his family are representative of the church in the flood story.

The church was removed prior to Noah entering the ark.

Not at all. See above. They were there through the flood, and the ark carried them safely through.

Noah is a type of those 144k who went through the baptism of fire with Jesus "on the ark."

I... sort of, at least... agree with you here... <chuckles>

The symbolism is how Jesus typified the ark and judgment of water to the Second Coming and judgment by fire.

Nope. Goodness gracious. The ark is a type/shadow of Jesus, Who sustains us throughout our lives... here on earth. Wow.

So people will live through this baptism by fire and some will be cast alive, during this time, into the LOF.

If one is baptized ~ in this life ~ by God with the Holy Spirit and fire (Matthew 3:11; Luke 3:16), then he/she will not , as a result of the final Judgment, executed by Christ, follow Satan and his minions and be cast into the lake of fire ~ which is to be placed under God's eternal judgment ~ and thus suffer day and night forever and ever.

But there is no one coming out of their graves, because this is the time that people are still dying.

Sure, this is the present age.

The only resurrection is after Armageddon, and those beheaded are resurrected to live physically on the earth. Still not some symbolic reference to the OT period.

Well, all those that have physically died will be resurrected on Christ's return, and only those who are in Christ will remain after the final Judgment. Certainly a real thing... LOL! But pointed to by things in the Old Testament... and promised in the New.

The first resurrection is not spiritual.

We disagree. It is spiritual, from death in sin to life in Christ, being raised by God and seated with Christ in the heavenly places, just as Paul says in Ephesians 2:4-11 and Peter says in 1 Peter 1:3-5.

It is physical after physical death.

It is after physical death, for sure, but this is the second resurrection, and it is either to eternal life or eternal judgment, just as Jesus says in John 5:28-29.

And there is a difference between walking though the fire without Christ and walking through the fire with Christ.

LOL! Well I certainly agree with this... LOL! But I think the problem is what you understand the fire to be... LOL!

Just like the ark was lifted up above the destruction, the sheep and wheat will be saved out of this destruction and time of Judgment.

Well, those belonging to Jesus are sustained ~ in this life ~ through the storms of life. We are both saved and being saved; Paul and Peter are very clear on this.

Jesus is the ark...

Which I have said numerous times...

...Jesus is on the earth during the tribulation...

Well, He's with us to the end, by the Holy Spirit, just as He said He would be in Matthew 28, as I said above, during this life where, though we meet with trials/tribulations of various kinds ~ even very great ones from time to time ~ we know that the testing of our faith produces steadfastness, which will have its full effect, that we may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing (James 1).

...so the Second Coming is pre-tribulation...

It's post-tribulation... although not then ushering in a 1,000-year "golden age" of peace and prosperity for the Church under Jesus, as post-millennialists suppose. After the present age of trial and tribulation, Jesus will return, and in short order execute the final Judgment, and the dead will obediently depart, and the Kingdom will be ushered in in its fullness, and eternity will begin... and never end, of course.

...the 144k walk through the tribulation in Christ as their ark and seal of protection.

This will have happened in full, for the full innumerable multitude... all those of God's Israel, of true Jewish heritage. There will be no more sin, and thus no more tribulation. Everlasting joy shall crown our heads. All sorrow and sighing will have fled away. Love Isaiah 35...

...the church was not Noah and his 7.

Noah and his family represented the Jesus's Church through the flood. It's an object lesson, so to speak.

The church was removed at the Second Coming...

Absolutely not. As I have said, God never promises removal from trouble, this millennium of tribulation, but sustenance ~ and His sustaining presence ~ through it... throughout His Word.

This is still how 8 billion souls are harvested from the earth.

Well, the true number of souls is innumerable... as the stars of heaven, as the grains of sand on the seashore, as God promises Abraham, and they are not "harvested from earth," but earth and heaven are finally one ~ heaven comes to us ~ and all things are made new (not "all new things are made"), as God promises in Revelation 21.

I've said it before... Goodness gracious.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Truth is I don't know because Scripture is not absolutely definitive about what happens to the one who dies in unbelief????

Well, we don't know exactly what hell looks like, for sure. We just know that unbelievers are sent away, and we are given some mental images that communicate its... undesirableness...

As I've said Scripture seems to say they will be tormented forever and ever, but it also says the lake of fire is the second death. So which is it? Eternal torment, or death?

Well, RWB, the answer is yes. I mean, surely, it's nothing to be flippant about, but... well, yes. It's... terrifying. The second death is not a cessation of existence.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[rwb]

So you dont believe in what the Bible lays out...

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Can you be a little more specific? Which parts of the Bible do you believe I don't believe?

 

[Timtofly]

Noah and his family are representative of the church in the flood story.

Not really. Noah and his family re-populated the earth. They were the left behinds.

The church is not going to populate the earth.

The church would be represented by the sons of God who never rebelled against God in the first place.

As a type. The church is removed from the earth so the church can come back at a later time. The firstfruits of the final harvest go through the tribulation in an ark of safety and populate the earth in order to subdue it per Genesis 1:26-27. The same task given to Noah and his 3 sons.

 

[PinSeeker]

Not really.

Yes, really. As Stuart Smalley (Al Franken) said, "Denial is not just a river in Egypt!"

Noah and his family re-populated the earth. They were the left behinds.

So, though Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation, and walked with God, he was left behind? LOL! Ugh...

The church is not going to populate the earth.

When as a result of the final Judgment the unbelieving are sent away, Christ's church only, His bride, which will be an inumerable multitude from every tongue, tribe, and nation, will... remain. And heaven and earth will finally be one. And we will... populate it.

The church would be represented by the sons of God who never rebelled against God in the first place.

No, Christ's Church includes all who have been clothed in His righteousness, who "God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses..." ~ when we were also in rebellion against Him, at enmity against Him ~ "...made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace (we) have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace we have been saved through faith. And this is not our own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:4-10).

The church is removed from the earth so the church can come back at a later time.

Nope. The tares are removed ~ and obediently depart, at the final Judgment ~ and the Church remains, and all things are finally made new.

The firstfruits of the final harvest go through the tribulation in an ark of safety and populate the earth in order to subdue it per Genesis 1:26-27. The same task given to Noah and his 3 sons.

Ugh. God renews His covenant of life, originally made with Adam but renewed with Noah.

Yeah, dispensationalism... ugh. Scripture is covenantal in nature, not dispensational.

Grace and peace to you, Timtofly.

 

[Timtofly]

So, though Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation, and walked with God, he was left behind? LOL! Ugh...

Are you saying the ark took him and his family to Heaven, and out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh?

 

[Timtofly]

Yes, really. As Stuart Smalley (Al Franken) said, "Denial is not just a river in Egypt!"

No

Nope.

So that point went over well....

 

[PinSeeker]

Are you saying the ark took him and his family to Heaven, and out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh?

LOL!!!! No... Is this a serious question? Goodness gracious. Wow.

So that point went over well....

Right because your... well, "points" did not... LOL! Yeah, when you point out the absolute absurdity of someone's "points," they usually don't take it so well.

Grace and peace to you, Timtofly.

 

[Timtofly]

LOL!!!! No... Is this a serious question? Goodness gracious. Wow.

Grace and peace to you, TimTimtofly.

Then those in the ark are not a type of the church by your own LOL moment of recognition.

The sons of God removed prior to the wickedness and judgment along with Enoch is a type of the church.

Those in the ark typify those who remain on the earth and populate the earth after the final harvest.

They still only survive via Jesus Christ.

 

[Hobie]

Can you be a little more specific? Which parts of the Bible do you believe I don't believe?

So explain the part in these verse of what the 'second death' is that the Bible lays out, and if you believe it.

 

[rwb]

So explain the part in these verse of what the 'second death' is that the Bible lays out, and if you believe it.

What have I said to make you think I don't believe the Bible says there shall be a second death for all who are not found written in the book of life, when the 'dead' are called to give account for what is found written in the books and the book of life? One thing Scripture says regarding the second death is that it is forever, there is no coming back for those who are cast into the lake of fire, that is the second death.

 

[Hobie]

Not really. Noah and his family re-populated the earth. They were the left behinds.

The church is not going to populate the earth.

The church would be represented by the sons of God who never rebelled against God in the first place.

As a type. The church is removed from the earth so the church can come back at a later time. The firstfruits of the final harvest go through the tribulation in an ark of safety and populate the earth in order to subdue it per Genesis 1:26-27. The same task given to Noah and his 3 sons.

The saints will be taken to heaven to the kingdom where Christ has prepare a place for us, that has been a core belief for all Christians..

John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

 

[ewq1938]

The saints will be taken to heaven to the kingdom where Christ has prepare a place for us, that has been a core belief for all Christians..

John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

True for those that died in faith but Christ spoke more:

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


AFTER Christ prepares the place in heaven he says he will return (back to the Earth) and says "where I am" which is now the Earth, that "there ye may be also". Christ doesn't say "and I will bring you back to heaven". Clearly the "there ye may be also" is the new location of Christ after "I will come again".

So he is speaking of two things.

1. Where the faithful go BEFORE HE RETURNS, which is heaven.
2. AFTER HE RETURNS, the faithful will be with Christ ON THE EARTH.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The names of the twelve tribes and their order in Rev ch7 speaks loud and clear of the Body of Christ.

Dan was intentionally left out of Revelation ch7

This is why - "Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel" (Genesis 49:16)."

It is only Christ who judges His People so Dan was left out because Rev ch 7 is not speaking of Jews.

This is why Rev 7:1-8 shows us the Body of Christ symbolically and then 7:9-10 shows us the literal Body of Christ

QUESTION for you: Why did the LORD reveal His Body as the 12 Tribes?

Then if they are not ethnic Jews, but gentile Christians, it is pointless to only seal 144k believers.
False assumption will eventually be exposed.
The dilemma is that your doctrine would say christians are already sealed, so they are already protected by the flying scorpions.

Once again postrib doctrine is proven false.

 

[rebuilder 454]

It never occurs to many of you that these 144,000 are exactly what God says they are.

There is no chance to understand scripture when you don't accept what it says.

The 144,000 are first fruits of the second harvest.

Bingo.
A few do pay attention to what it says.

 

[rebuilder 454]

There is absolutely nothing in those verses about the 144,000 that would point to them being the Church. If it was the Church all John would have to do is use the word Church. Instead John goes to a lengthy description of exactly what and who those 144,000 are. Instead of accepting the written Word of God you force yourself to deny the truth. All John had to do was say Church. Why not just accept what is written so you can understand the Word of God. As soon as you start making stuff up you are lost.

The same thing goes for those that claim that the 144,000 are all of Israel. All John had to do was say Israel. There is an elaborate description so that we would understand EXACTLY who and what the 144,000 are. THEY ARE FIRSTFRUITS. That obviously means there will be a harvest of those of the twelve tribes. And yet we find the need to make things up. SMH.

It is plain goofy how they need the 144k to be a made up ,spiritual, broad brushed dynamic.
But actually, if they are in fact firstfruits and ethnic Jews, that ALONE ,completely destroys all but a pretrib rapture.

Thank God for his word.

 

[David in NJ]

Then if they are not ethnic Jews, but gentile Christians, it is pointless to only seal 144k believers.
False assumption will eventually be exposed.
The dilemma is that your doctrine would say christians are already sealed, so they are already protected by the flying scorpions.

Once again postrib doctrine is proven false.

Point #1 - It would be pointless IF the LORD was not intentionally speaking of a Truth that is coded by symbolism = which HE likes to do.

Point #2 - God has already exposed falsehood = in His Word of Truth = when you know Truth you can spot the falsehood(s)

Point #3 - Every true Spirit Born-Again saint/elect/believer is sealed by God = Ephesians 1:13-14 and 2 Timothy 2:19

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed,
you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

 

[rebuilder 454]

Says who? Amil stake that claim. They deny the Millennium Kingdom. There is only lighter fluid in the book, as everything is burned up at the Second Coming. Nothing is burned up in Revelation 19. Only Adam's dead flesh consumed by the fowls of the air.

Revelation 19 is not the Second Coming. Jesus was already on the earth from the 6th Seal, until Satan's 42 months. During those 42 months, Jesus and the 144k are waiting on that heavenly mount Zion. Then in Revelation 19 they return after the 42 months are over. The 144k are not currently waiting for the 6th Seal to be opened. The 144k are sealed at the 6th Seal, prior to the opening of the 7th Seal.

I saw where you posted that the gathering of mat 24 by angels from heaven, is the rapture and you placed that timeframe about midtrib or immediately before the 144k are gathered. However, that mat 24 gathering is post wrath. As it clearly states.
That gathering is not the rapture as we can see from the context and would be impossible, for Jesus vividly declares a gathering pretrib, later on in the same chapter, which is obviously the rapture of the bride. And that gathering pretrib is a select few. Which is EMPHASIZED several times, almost in the same breath, by Jesus, a few sentences later, and continues into mat 25..if we invoke context and avoid omissions.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Point #1 - It would be pointless IF the LORD was not intentionally speaking of a Truth that is coded by symbolism = which HE likes to do.

Point #2 - God has already exposed falsehood = in His Word of Truth = when you know Truth you can spot the falsehood(s)

Point #3 - Every true Spirit Born-Again saint/elect/believer is sealed by God = Ephesians 1:13-14 and 2 Timothy 2:19

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

So you defend what is not written.
You can not reconcile the fact that ONLY 144k are sealed against the flying scorpions.

You assume millions of believers are supposedly here on the planet during the great tribulation and are already sealed.
You never addressed that offshoot and side trail of assumptions that makes no sense.
IOW God forgot they, the 144k, were already sealed??? But it gets worse for you because God commands the scorpions to not sting the 144k only ( keep in mind your assertion is there are millions of believers on the planet running from cave to cave)
So sealing them, ACCORDING TO YOUR DOCTRINE, is totally pointless

Those beliefs are debunked.
In fact they are simply made up and proven false

 

[David in NJ]

So you defend what is not written.
You can not reconcile the fact that ONLY 144k are sealed against the flying scorpions.

You assume millions of believers are supposedly here on the planet during the great tribulation and are already sealed.
You never addressed that offshoot and side trail of assumptions that makes no sense.
IOW God forgot they were already sealed???. So sealing them, ACCORDING TO YOUR DOCTRINE, is totally pointless

Those beliefs are debunked.
In fact they are simply made up and proven false

@rebuilder 454 says: "So you defend what is not written."

This is a lol x100 for 'pre-trib rapture' cannot be found anywhere in the Scriptures.

Whereas the Rev ch7 144K are specified in symbolic term and then explained Rev ch21