The 144,000 before God at the end.

[David in NJ]

Before "A" resurrection because the dead in Christ rise first. The resurrection of the Church is the first harvest.

The Resurrection of the "dead in Christ" is the same Resurrection of His Church/Bride/Elect/Saints

There is only one Resurrection for the Justified in Christ which will ONLY occur when JESUS Prophecies in Matthew 24 are fulfilled prior to His Wrath.

Then they will deliver you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another, and many false prophets will arise and mislead many.
Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold. But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Christ will Return only when "the End" is completed as desired by the FATHER = Gospel, Acts, Romans ch11, Ephesians, Revelation ch6

 

[The Light]

That is why the tribulation of those days ends at the rapture and Second Coming, the 6th Seal. Then Jacob's trouble begins, the GT.

As you say, the tribulation is over at the second coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. That is NOT when Jacobs trouble begins, that is when Jacobs trouble is over. The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened.

 

[The Light]

AGREE with you that the the 6th Seal gives us the Preview of the LORD's Second Coming, whereby the Resurrection and the following rapture will occur = just as we are told in 1 Thessalonians and 2 Thessalonians

No preview about. When the 6th seal is opened Jesus returns for the second coming. Tribulation is over and the wrath of God will begin after the 7th seal is opened and the 1st trumpet sounds.

You try to make the 6th seal a preview of what happens in the 7th seal. TOTAL AND COMPLETE ERROR. And you should know that.

 

[rwb]

I'm not sure the exact point you are trying to make. Are you saying the abomination of desolation has already happened?

It's not what I believe, what do you believe? As I've already said, we can find fulfillment in the New Testament for that which was prophesied from the Old. What do you believe, and can you biblically prove, the abomination of desolation is?

 

[David in NJ]

As you say, the tribulation is over at the second coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. That is NOT when Jacobs trouble begins, that is when Jacobs trouble is over. The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened.

@The Light says: "The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened."

There is not one scripture that you can bring forth that makes this declaration.

Not only that, but it is 'antichrist' for it speaks against Christ words and seeks to 'replace' Christs words with religious hype that pleases the flesh and is used to attract follower$.

 

[rwb]

How can anyone take you seriously when you don't understand that the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel.




You have no idea what you are talking about. When the Great Tribulation occurs it will be the worst time in history. It's not about a couple of people being killed. It will be the time of Jacobs trouble. How do you not understand this?

I don't want your opinions! Prove from the Scripture that the 70th week of Daniel is about an ethnic people of Daniel and not a spiritual people of Daniel that have Daniel's faith.

Do you deny the great tribulation that has come against the Church during this Gospel age is not the worst thing ever to have happened throughout history, and shall not be repeated? A couple of people!!! Are you serious??? Ever heard of Foxe's Book of Martyrs?

 

[covenantee]

Are you saying the abomination of desolation has already happened?

Are you saying that it hasn't?

Luke 21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

The Judaean Christians saw Jerusalem compassed with armies, remembered Jesus' warning, fled to the mountains, and survived.

Thankfully, none of them were dispensational futurites.

 

[The Light]

You continue to be incapable of identifying what has been replaced.

I haven't replaced any Jew's DNA. So what do you think I've replaced?

I don't think you have replaced anything.

The Chosen are all Jews and Gentiles who have received Christ.

The elect are all Jews and Gentiles that have received Christ. The Chosen are a people unto the Lord, above all people that are on the face of the earth.

Deuteronomy 7

1 When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;

6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

They have replaced no one and nothing.

And no one and nothing has replaced them.

I know.

Do you think that Christian Jews have replaced non-Christian Jews?

No.

If a Christian Jew or Gentile has replaced a non-Christian Jew, this would mean that the non-Christian Jew cannot come to Christ, because his place has been taken by the Christian Jew or Gentile.

Your "replacement theology" is an irrational absurdity.

Twisting around does not change the facts.

Your doctrine is replacement theology. You believe that the Church has replaced Israel. That is why you think that the 144,000 that are from twelve tribes represents the Church. What those 144,000 are is the first fruits of the harvest of the seed of the woman which is the Jews across the earth that you don't think God is smart enough to identify.

There are 5 wise and 5 foolish. That should concern you.

Romans 11
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

 

[covenantee]

Twisting around does not change the facts.

I've untwisted your twist. Again:

Israel is not prevented from coming to Christ, to which multitudes of Jews who have received Him testify.

No one denied them, and no one can deny them, a place at the Cross.

They are therefore not replaced.

 

[The Light]

I don't want your opinions! Prove from the Scripture that the 70th week of Daniel is about an ethnic people of Daniel and not a spiritual people of Daniel that have Daniel's faith.

That's simple enough.

Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Do you deny the great tribulation that has come against the Church during this Gospel age is not the worst thing ever to have happened throughout history, and shall not be repeated? A couple of people!!! Are you serious??? Ever heard of Foxe's Book of Martyrs?

Please.

The Great Tribulation has not occurred and will not occur until the seals are opened. Of course the Church has been under tribulation, but it is not the Great Tribulation as that occurs during the time of Jacobs trouble.

 

[The Light]

Are you saying that it hasn't?

Luke 21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

The Judaean Christians saw Jerusalem compassed with armies, remembered Jesus' warning, fled to the mountains, and survived.

Thankfully, none of them were dispensational futurites.

I see you don't understand the difference between Luke 21 and Matthew 24.

 

[covenantee]

I see you don't understand the difference between Luke 21 and Matthew 24.

I see you don't understand that Scripture interprets Scripture.

 

[The Light]

I've untwisted your twist. Again:

Israel is not prevented from coming to Christ, to which multitudes of Jews who have received Him testify.

Yeah and yet.........................

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

No one denied them, and no one can deny them, a place at the Cross.

They are therefore not replaced.

And yet your doctrine believes that the Church has replaced Israel. Even as you believe that the 144,000 first fruits are the Church.

 

[covenantee]

Yeah and yet.........................

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.


And yet your doctrine believes that the Church has replaced Israel. Even as you believe that the 144,000 first fruits are the Church.

I've expressed my doctrine. You are incapable of understanding it, because to do so requires spiritual discernment, which to you is foolishness. 1 Corinthians 2:14

 

[rwb]

That's simple enough.

Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

You haven't proven "thy people" are ethnic and not spiritual. How do you determine when the seventy weeks shall be? The seventy weeks must lead us to a period of time to finish transgression, make an end of sins, and make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in every lasting righteousness, to seal up the vison and prophecy, and anoint the most Holy. When and who does the seventy weeks point to? If you can't prove the time for fulfilling the prophesy, all you've done is throw out a verse of Scripture you IMAGINE proves your unbiblical doctrine.

 

[rwb]

Please.

The Great Tribulation has not occurred and will not occur until the seals are opened. Of course the Church has been under tribulation, but it is not the Great Tribulation as that occurs during the time of Jacobs trouble.

More imagination without verification of your opinion from the Scripture. I don't believe Stephen and all vast numbers of other Christians martyred for faith would agree the tribulation they endured was anything less than GREAT!

 

[rwb]

Yeah and yet.........................

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Where does Paul write that blindness in part that happened to Israel shall be lifted when the fulness of Gentiles come in? Paul is telling us that Israel shall be saved when the fullness of Gentiles come in to the same good olive tree of faith with Jews of faith.

The context shows us that Israel that shall be saved include Jews of faith as well as Gentiles of faith, but you imagine Paul is too stupid to understand "all Israel that shall be saved" cannot be speaking of ethnic Israel, but is speaking of the "Israel of God." All Israel that shall be saved through the Deliverer, who turns away ungodliness from JACOB!

Romans 11:25-28 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

 

[ewq1938]

The Church will not go through the tribulation, let alone the wrath of God.

Yes, it will. Multiple scriptures show the church doing just that. It's the entire purpose of the trib.

You can't figure out the trumpets are Gods wrath. Simple as that.

No, what's simple is the 7th trump says that the wrath of God comes at that time, not 6 trumps earlier. You prefer your own beliefs over what Rev 11 says about when God's wrath begins.

 

[The Light]

I've expressed my doctrine.

I got it. You think you have replaced Israel. This is why you think the 144,000 a specific number of 1st fruits from the 12 tribes is the Church.

You are incapable of understanding it, because to do so requires spiritual discernment, which to you is foolishness. 1 Corinthians 2:14

There are 5 wise that are watching and ready and five foolish that are not.

 

[ewq1938]

I got it. You think you have replaced Israel.

Pre-trib does the same thing where Gentiles push Israel out of the church so they become the church and Israel is this separate non-church entity. This is a form of replacement theology that is scriptural unsound. The faithful (in Christ) Israel became the church an d were the church's first members. Gentiles have to join THAT CHURCH started by Israel (through Christ and the 12 disciples) to become part of the church. No one is replaced and no one is pushed out of the church.