The 144,000 before God at the end.

[TribulationSigns]

````````

It's a very literal number and it does not include any gentiles. Amill literally re-writes this into something from it's own imagination rendering the actual scriptures invalid.

Well, I have presented Scripture proof of my position. You refused to receive it and falsely accused me. So the Lord judges and I am comfortable with this.

 

[The Light]

What acclaimed Christian historical expositor has accused Matthew Henry of making anything up?

All you have to do is read this statement by Henry.

1. How Christ appears: as a Lamb standing upon mount Zion. Mount Zion is the gospel church. Christ is with his church and in the midst of her in all her troubles,

The 144,000 is a literal number..........just like the Word says. Just because Henry thinks that the Church has replaced the first fruits of the twelve tribes does not make it so.

This is nothing more than the unscriptural opinion that the Church has replaced Israel.

Fortunately, we have a God that keeps His word.

 

[grafted branch]

The 144,000 are sealed somewhere after the 1st seal and before the 5th seal. I know you think they are sealed after the 6th seal but that can be proven to be incorrect.

I actually do think the 144,000 were sealed prior to the fifth seal, but I also think the fifth seal question that was asked had to have been asked prior to the writing of the book of Revelation.

Everyone who has read Revelation chapter 6 knows what the answer is to the question that was asked, so there is no need to ask it again. Just like there is no need to ask Jesus how many disciples he had or if he was baptized, we know for certain the answer to those questions, so also we know for certain the answer to “How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?”

 

[grafted branch]

It's a very literal number and it does not include any gentiles.

I want to get your view on Genesis 48:19.

In Genesis 48:19 Ephraim is called a fullness of nations or fullness of Gentiles, this would point towards the 144,000 being both Jew and Gentile if the tribe of Joseph refers to tribe of Ephraim as it does in Numbers 1:32-33.

I was thinking that the 144,000 didn’t include Gentiles but now I’m not sure, I’m thinking it might since the tribe of Joseph is Ephraim and Ephraim is called a fullness of Gentiles. What are your thoughts on this?

 

[ewq1938]

You refused to receive it and falsely accused me.

I clearly spoke of the doctrine called "Amill". You believe in it but you did not create it.

 

[ewq1938]

I want to get your view on Genesis 48:19.

In Genesis 48:19 Ephraim is called a fullness of nations or fullness of Gentiles,

I think Gill has a correct view on it:

and his seed shall become a multitude of nations; that is, of families, for as nations are called families, Amo_3:1; so families may be called nations; the Targum of Onkelos is,"his sons shall be rulers among the people,''so Joshua, who was of the tribe of Ephraim, conquered and subdued the nations of the Canaanites, and Jeroboam of this tribe ruled over the ten tribes or nations of Israel: it may be rendered, "his seed shall fill the nations" (t), or be "the fulness" of them; which Jarchi interprets of the whole world being filled with the fame and renown of Joshua, who was of this tribe, when the sun and moon stood still in his days; but it is best to understand this of the large share he should have of the land of Canaan among the rest of the tribes or nations of Israel.

this would point towards the 144,000 being both Jew and Gentile if the tribe of Joseph refers to tribe of Ephraim as it does in Numbers 1:32-33.

The tribes of the 144k are the tribes of Israel not Gentile tribes. One of the tribes is Judah and it does not contain any gentiles. Ephraim is also not listed as one of the 12 tribes the 144k come from.

I was thinking that the 144,000 didn’t include Gentiles but now I’m not sure, I’m thinking it might since the tribe of Joseph is Ephraim and Ephraim is called a fullness of Gentiles. What are your thoughts on this?

God is very specific on where the 144k come from. Gentiles have their place in the body of Christ and end times events but they aren't part of the 144k. Paul wasn't one of the original 12 but he had an important role. Gentiles aren't and don't need to be part of the 12 tribes of Israel the 144k come from.

Now, gentiles are grafted onto the tree which is Israel but I see no evidence that they are also grafted into specific tribes of Israel. I would think Gentiles are of their own tribes being from wild olive trees.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I clearly spoke of the doctrine called "Amill". You believe in it but you did not create it.

No, I didn't God did. Its in the Bible.

 

[grafted branch]

I think Gill has a correct view on it:

and his seed shall become a multitude of nations; that is, of families, for as nations are called families, Amo_3:1; so families may be called nations; the Targum of Onkelos is,"his sons shall be rulers among the people,''so Joshua, who was of the tribe of Ephraim, conquered and subdued the nations of the Canaanites, and Jeroboam of this tribe ruled over the ten tribes or nations of Israel: it may be rendered, "his seed shall fill the nations" (t), or be "the fulness" of them; which Jarchi interprets of the whole world being filled with the fame and renown of Joshua, who was of this tribe, when the sun and moon stood still in his days; but it is best to understand this of the large share he should have of the land of Canaan among the rest of the tribes or nations of Israel.






The tribes of the 144k are the tribes of Israel not Gentile tribes. One of the tribes is Judah and it does not contain any gentiles. Ephraim is also not listed as one of the 12 tribes the 144k come from.





God is very specific on where the 144k come from. Gentiles have their place in the body of Christ and end times events but they aren't part of the 144k. Paul wasn't one of the original 12 but he had an important role. Gentiles aren't and don't need to be part of the 12 tribes of Israel the 144k come from.

Now, gentiles are grafted onto the tree which is Israel but I see no evidence that they are also grafted into specific tribes of Israel. I would think Gentiles are of their own tribes being from wild olive trees.

Ok, thanks, I know Paul never suggests that Gentiles belong to any tribe and I’ve never been to a church that tries to distinguish which tribe believers belong to. They only distinguish believers by the different gifts of the Spirit as seen in 1 Corinthians 12.

 

[The Light]

I actually do think the 144,000 were sealed prior to the fifth seal, but I also think the fifth seal question that was asked had to have been asked prior to the writing of the book of Revelation.

Do you think the seals have been opened for a long time?

Everyone who has read Revelation chapter 6 knows what the answer is to the question that was asked, so there is no need to ask it again. Just like there is no need to ask Jesus how many disciples he had or if he was baptized, we know for certain the answer to those questions, so also we know for certain the answer to “How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?”

Not following you here.

 

[grafted branch]

Do you think the seals have been opened for a long time?

Yes, I think the four horsemen all represent actions accomplished by Jesus while on earth.

Not following you here.

The question asked in Revelation 6:10 was “How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?”. The answer to that question was “and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled”.

If you were personally killed and were one of the martyrs under the altar at the fifth seal, would you need to ask how long? Or would you already know that it would be a little season?

If the fifth seal happens in the future then the question of “how long” doesn’t need to be asked in the first place because we would have the foreknowledge of the answer. The only way the fifth seal makes sense is if those who ask the question didn’t know what the answer would be, they had to have asked the question of “how long” prior to Revelation being written.

 

[brightfame52]

Both the 144000 and the Multitude w/o number are one and the same, the Israel of God from among all nations, and everyone is accounted for, thats why the 144000, its merely symbolic for the completed Salvation of all the Israel of God, fullfilling Rom 11:25-26

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

 

[rebuilder 454]

The great crowd of people that John sees will be the Christian peoples from every tribe, race nation and language.
They ; WE will gather into all of the holy land, soon after the Sixth Seal has cleared and cleansed the entire area.

You know very well that over the 100 generations since the 12 tribes of Israel were formed, everyone alive today will have some of the genes of the Patriarchs.
Plainly and logically: the 144K will be selected out from the multitude, who will be divided into 12 groups, each named after one of Jacobs sons. With Joseph/Ephraim and Manasseh, but not Dan, as listed in Revelation 7.
So as you say; the multitude and the 144k, are both members of the Christian Church.

The 144k are men, virgins,ethnic Jews,
Specifically numbered two different ways, are the ONLY NUMBER sealed against the flying scorpions,and are equally from the 12 tribes of Israel.
So no....all of you are simply making stuff up.

 

[covenantee]

All you have to do is read this statement by Henry.

1. How Christ appears: as a Lamb standing upon mount Zion. Mount Zion is the gospel church. Christ is with his church and in the midst of her in all her troubles,

The 144,000 is a literal number..........just like the Word says. Just because Henry thinks that the Church has replaced the first fruits of the twelve tribes does not make it so.

This is nothing more than the unscriptural opinion that the Church has replaced Israel.

Fortunately, we have a God that keeps His word.

You didn't answer the question.

What acclaimed Christian historical expositor has accused Matthew Henry of making anything up?

Let me help.

Not one.

And the reality is that there is not one expositor in more than 17 centuries of historical true Christian Church orthodoxy who interprets the 144,000 as representing anything other than the Church or a portion of the Church.

Not one.

And if the Church has replaced Israel, what has it replaced? Israel's physical DNA? Israel's room at the cross for any and all who seek Christ? Israel's opportunity to come to Christ?

"Replacement theory" (it's not theology) is the consummate non sequitur, fabricated by a pharisaic racist dispensationalism which is unable to answer the simple questions above.

What/whom to believe?

1. More than 17 centuries of historical true Christian Church orthodoxy
2. You

Need a hint?

 

[TribulationSigns]

And if the Church has replaced Israel, what has it replaced? Israel's physical DNA?

It seems they are prone to be discombobulated. In the real sense Israel was NEVER replaced, because Israel is Christ! The congregation bearing His name merely represents Him in His people. First the Jews, then the Gentiles. The honor of representation of His dominion was "taken" from that nation, and given to the Church. As an analogy, the Hope Diamond is a treasure that cannot replaced. You can take it from someone and give it to another, but it cannot be replaced. Get it, people?! Because if it is replaced it, then by definition it is no longer the Hope Diamond, but something else. Again, an imperfect analogy, but this is the portrait God paints. Not I:

Matthew 21:42-43

• "Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
• Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

So then, we don't even have to speculate, we know for sure that God took the Kingdom from that nation or Old Testament body, and gave it to the Gentiles which is now representing the New Testament Body of Israel. A fact which is confirmed all throughout the New Testament. So the Red Herring of "Replacement Theology" is misleading and irrelevant to the issue at hand. Israel "IS" the Church, "representing" Christ on Earth since the Cross. Israel "was" the congregation of Jews in the Old testament, but that title was taken from them along with the kingdom for which it stood.

We've all dealt with their Red Herring "Replacement Theology" for what it is! A distraction from the truth of what God's Word actually says concerning Israel, her Restoration in Christ, and the fruitless destiny of the nation! Read carefully:

Matthew 21:19

• "And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away."

Do you want to "deal with" the fact that, according to the authoritative word of God, no fruit will "ever" come from the nation of Israel every again?! The fact is the modern nation of Israel WILL NEVER represent God's kingdom again! But THOSE in Christ. Just say Amen!

 

[ewq1938]

Both the 144000 and the Multitude w/o number are one and the same

No, they are not. The 144k are only from Israel while the multitude is of all nations.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.


Anything that contradicts what these verses say is false.

 

[The Light]

You didn't answer the question.

What acclaimed Christian historical expositor has accused Matthew Henry of making anything up?

Let me help.

Not one.

And the reality is that there is not one expositor in more than 17 centuries of historical true Christian Church orthodoxy who interprets the 144,000 as representing anything other than the Church or a portion of the Church.

Not one.

And if the Church has replaced Israel, what has it replaced? Israel's physical DNA? Israel's room at the cross for any and all who seek Christ? Israel's opportunity to come to Christ?

"Replacement theory" is the consummate non sequitur, fabricated by a pharisaic racist dispensationalism which is unable to answer the simple questions above.

What/whom to believe?

1. More than 17 centuries of historical true Christian Church orthodoxy
2. You

Need a hint?

I would believe me. We live in a time when the nation of Israel has been restored. All the error of replacement theology need not grip us like a cancer. We have proof through all time that God keeps His Word. And God told us what He would do and who the 144,000 are. No need to make anything up.

 

[covenantee]

I would believe me. We live in a time when the nation of Israel has been restored. All the error of replacement theology need not grip us like a cancer. We have proof through all time that God keeps His Word. And God told us what He would do and who the 144,000 are. No need to make anything up.

If the Church has replaced Israel, what has it replaced? Israel's physical DNA? Israel's room at the cross for any and all who seek Christ? Israel's opportunity to come to Christ?

Four simple questions.

Why no answers?

 

[TribulationSigns]

No, they are not. The 144k are only from Israel while the multitude is of all nations.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Because they are all of Israel in Christ. Spiritual tribes of the children of Israel.

1Pe 2:4-6
(4) To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
(5) Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
(6) Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

1Co 12:27
(27) Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Israel is the people of God in the Old Testament and the church is the people of God in the New Testament and beyond. The church does not replace Israel, but is rather a continuation of it. The chosen people of God have always consisted of both Jewish and Gentile believers united in their common faith in the Messiah, which the New Testament reveals to be Jesus Christ, and continues to do so to this day. Being one of God’s chosen people has nothing to do with race or ethnicity; it depends on faith alone in Jesus Christ alone, by God’s grace alon

 

[ewq1938]

Israel is the people of God in the Old Testament and the church is the people of God in the New Testament and beyond. The church does not replace Israel, but is rather a continuation of it.

I agree but the concept of gentiles becoming part of Israel's specific tribes is a stretch and so far there is no support for that. The 12k from each of 123 tribes of Israel in Rev is definitely only of the natural born not others grafted in IMO. I view it the same as teh original 12 disciples. None were gentiles and that's ok. Gentiles don't need to be part of that or the 144k because they have their own place in the Body and Church and the endtimes. The two witnesses could have a great number of saved gentiles. Same with the beheaded saints of Rev 20 and those of the Harpazo Paul spoke of. Teh 144k are just some of the end times saints.

 

[Keraz]

I agree but the concept of gentiles becoming part of Israel's specific tribes is a stretch and so far there is no support for that.

But it is what will happen.
When we Christian peoples go to live in all of the holy Land, we be divided into 12 groups, as listed in Rev 7 and in Ezekiel 40 to 48
The 144000 missionaries will be selected by Jesus, Rev 14:1-5, out of each group. Ephraim will be the leading group.

Teh 144k are just some of the end times saints.

Isaiah 66:19 plainly tells us what the purpose of the 144k is. The precursor for them, is in Luke 10:1-10