The 2 Levels of Holiness

[marks]

Hello marks,
The veil in the Temple was removed, there yet remains a veil..

Heb 10:20

by the new and living way he opened for us through the veil, that is, his flesh,

Peace be with you!

Hi Philip James,

That's just it, Jesus is our anchor which holds through the veil.

It's like in 2 Corinthians 2, a veil remains over the hearts of the Jews, but that veil is removed in Christ.

There is a veil between terrestrial and celestial now. And we only see on this side of that veil, but our walk is by faith, not by sight. It's not about what we experience on this side of the veil, it's about what is true on that side of the veil. And what is true there is that our lives have been hid with Christ in God, and we have been seated together in the heavenly realm, and we are one with our God and Savior, and one with each other.

These things are all current realities, but we do not see them. We see us, disjointed, confused, defeated, all that we see, and sometimes victorious, and sometimes overcoming, but in fact we can overcome at all times because that is who we are in Christ.

Being one with God . . . meditate on that. You who have trusted in Christ are born spirit children of God, sharing His nature, and children of our Heavenly Father. The same power that saved you, recreating you, absolving you of all guilt, giving you resurrection in your life now, and in your being in the age to come,

That same power remains in you to make you holy.

We are holy on that side of the veil, where our true life is, and in God's power - Grace - we overcome our flesh, and live holy on this side of the veil.

We believe what God did for us, and we live in that truth. And that truth is that God loves, and we love also. If we do not love, how is it that we are unified with God?

As towards "2 levels of holiness", how can I take any credit for that which I have received? As if I somehow attain to some higher level by what, my own doing?

Everything I see towards holiness and wickedness, righteousness and evil, light and darkness, life and death, it's all just like that, one or the other.

Everything I see in the Bible towards what God is doing in us as His children is to unify us, to make us partakers with each other in all things, through the unification of His Spirit.

He will reward us each one according to what we've done. God makes clear we will receive for both good and bad as done in our bodies. I understand this to mean that we will each have our individual reward from God, as He says elsewhere, then every man shall receive praise from God.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Who was saved in the ark that Noah built? Why were there three levels of salvation there? Are you so certain that there is no message from God to us in that separation?

Hi amadeus,

Weren't all who were in the ark saved? No matter which deck? Can you show me any passage of Scripture which teaches me of the 3 decks in the ark representing "levels of salvation"? I've never heard of this in Scripture.

God knew the right shape for the boat, He knew how many animals, how much space, length, breadth, divide by beasts, voila, 3 decks, is it anything more than that?

But all that aside, ALL who were in the ark were saved just the same, to walk upon the post-flood earth.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Then again is there no difference between those in the Bride of Christ and the invited guests at the wedding?

Is it the parable you are speaking of? If you wish to study that together with me, we can do that. I do not believe it teaches this division in the church you speak of.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The veil is rent down the middle, but can anyone simply walk right in? Is it a 'come as you are' party?

Not totally sure what you mean here, but being born again means we are anchored by Christ within the veil, that we are accepted in Christ, and that it's not by being well behaved, it's by faith in Jesus. Perhaps to most directly address this . . .

Hebrews 4
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Much love!

 

[marks]

And also there is only one heaven, right? But in the following verse Jesus spoke of more than one, did He not? [one of favorites of our friend @bbyrd009 ]

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." John 3:13

On this I'd need you to elaborate what you mean, I don't know.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Does not Paul here speak of the now?

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

And John writes here of the then, but how does one get from seeing through a glass darkly now to 'face to face' then?

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

Of course, now we see through a glass darkly, and then face to face. Tell me, what changes between the Now and the Then? Is it when we close our eyes to this world, and open them in the next?

Where in here is a separation into "two holinesses"?

Much love!

 

[amadeus]

Hi amadeus,

Weren't all who were in the ark saved? No matter which deck? Can you show me any passage of Scripture which teaches me of the 3 decks in the ark representing "levels of salvation"? I've never heard of this in Scripture.

There are many verses speaking of the beasts and beastly natures of men. As to the ark of Noah, some were saved as unclean beasts; some were saved as clean beasts; and some were saved as men. If a man fails to kill all of his beasts, both the unclean and the clean, will he be allowed to pass through the gate and to partake of the Tree of Life? There is a difference between 1st, 2nd and 3rd heaven but what does it all mean? You say you have the answers, but you fail to explain all of these things. My explanations are at best incomplete, and likely in parts in error. Nevertheless I do have a vision even though still through a glass darkly. The face to face is coming. Just keep on seeking and allowing God to give any necessary increase.

God knew the right shape for the boat, He knew how many animals, how much space, length, breadth, divide by beasts, voila, 3 decks, is it anything more than that?

There are the types and shadows in those things of the reality of God and His Kingdom. Definitely no beasts in us as we would approach God in 3rd heaven. For one thing, I believe, it, that is, heaven, 1st or 2nd or 3rd, needs to be in us. People sitting back on their laurels may be saved but what is the reward of even a clean beast?

"I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts." Ecc 3:18

"She [Wisdom] hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table." Prov 9:2

But all that aside, ALL who were in the ark were saved just the same, to walk upon the post-flood earth.

That was in the carnal, but what does that mean to the spiritual man who has saved his beasts instead of allowing the wisdom of God kill them? What prayer is it that man cannot pray in his own language... resorting therefore to an unknown tongue from God to ask as is really needful.

Well, give God the glory! I do continue to strive to surrender it all to Him. When I cannot do even that alone, I ask for His help:

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:" Matt 7:7

 

[amadeus]

Of course, now we see through a glass darkly, and then face to face. Tell me, what changes between the Now and the Then? Is it when we close our eyes to this world, and open them in the next?

Where in here is a separation into "two holinesses"?

Much love!

There is the Holy Place and there is the Most Holy Place [Holiest of Holies]. There is the bottom level of the ark with its unclean beasts versus the family of Noah at the top level. All were set apart [made holy] were they not? Convert that terminology from type or shadow to the reality of God now...

 

[marks]

If a man fails to kill all of his beasts, both the unclean and the clean, will he be allowed to pass through the gate and to partake of the Tree of Life?

Is that what this is determined by? Our abitility to "kill our beasts"?

The flesh is already crucified, and we are to reckon that so.

This is accomplished by the grace of God - His power to save and to sanctify - which we receive solely through faith in Jesus Christ.

You say you have the answers, but you fail to explain all of these things.

Is this in reference to a specific question? Admittedy some things you've written I find confusing, and I feel certain I don't understand what you mean. I hope to have asked concerning those, I believe I did.

That was in the carnal, but what does that mean to the spiritual man who has saved his beasts instead of allowing the wisdom of God kill them? What prayer is it that man cannot pray in his own language... resorting therefore to an unknown tongue from God to ask as is really needful.

Saved his beasts?

We are crucified with Christ. We've been removed from these beasts of which you speak. What remains for us is to come to faith in that fact that we, when we truly trust in Jesus, rely wholy upon Him . . . we are baptized into Him, die with Him (die to those beasts, the beasts die), are raised with Him, brand new, no beasts at all.

But if we don't remember that truth, don't stand in it, we go back to acting, thinking, as if we still do have them. And then our live becomes about tracking down the beasts, and killing them, instead of living in the joy and love of unity with God, those beasts being truly gone forever.

Much love!

 

[Philip James]

Everything I see in the Bible towards what God is doing in us as His children is to unify us, to make us partakers with each other in all things, through the unification of His Spirit.

Amen!

These things are all current realities, but we do not see them. We see us, disjointed, confused, defeated

Come to Mass sometime, and tell me what you see...

Peace be with you!

 

[marks]

There is the Holy Place and there is the Most Holy Place [Holiest of Holies]. There is the bottom level of the ark with its unclean beasts versus the family of Noah at the top level. All were set apart [made holy] were they not? Convert that terminology from type or shadow to the reality of God now...

That's the beauty of it, amadeus, all these separations, divisions, before, no one but the priest could even enter the temple, and only the holiest place the high priest, and that only once a year, lest they die.

Now, we are the temple, not the temple only, but God dwells in our hearts, we who are the redeemed. He doesn't live in one differently than another does He? He is not a respector of persons, is He? We are all the temple, God lives in us. No separation. The Holy Place.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Amen!

Come to Mass sometime, and tell me what you see...

Peace be with you!

To tell the truth . . . I was thinking this forum bunch! LOL!

But even in our disunity I feel there is much unity in Jesus.

Much love!

 

[Philip James]

To tell the truth . . . I was thinking this forum bunch! LOL!

But even in our disunity I feel there is much unity in Jesus.

Much love!

The Spirit calls us to that unity... 'bearing with one another, in love'

Peace be with you!

 

[amadeus]

Is that what this is determined by? Our abitility to "kill our beasts"?

While the beasts live, even though we have the Holy Spirit in us, each time we quench the Holy Spirit in us we allow the beasts to have the dominion again. When they do we will sin again. The primary beast natures in our little world of self are found in the three things of this verse as I see it:

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:16

So then with the Holy Spirit quenched we will follow one or two or all three and their lead is aimed directly at a return to sin again.

The flesh is already crucified, and we are to reckon that so.

I don't believe the flesh is crucified for anyone who still sins at all. This is why Paul wrote:

"And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily." I Cor 15:30-31

That great man of God had to die daily to continue always on the Lord's side. God loses no battles, but we will always lose when we are not on His side.

This is accomplished by the grace of God - His power to save and to sanctify - which we receive solely through faith in Jesus Christ.

Yes, the power may be there within us, but it is still each us who still decide who leads the way, who takes hold of the reins. When we surrender to God, the Holy Spirit leads. With any other choice, the old man always will leads us into sin.

Is this in reference to a specific question? Admittedy some things you've written I find confusing, and I feel certain I don't understand what you mean. I hope to have asked concerning those, I believe I did.

When I said "you" it was a non-specific "you" perhaps more clearly expressed by saying "One fails to explain..." which is what I see in most places of worship or Bible study I have visited. They have their beliefs on many of these things set in concrete even though in places they seem to contradict what I see in the scriptures. Of course they would say I was wrong as I guess you would also say...

Saved his beasts?

If we limit God, then the beasts that Wisdom that would kill is blocked and the beasts remain. Quenching the Holy Spirit is effectively saving our own beasts.

We are crucified with Christ. We've been removed from these beasts of which you speak. What remains for us is to come to faith in that fact that we, when we truly trust in Jesus, rely wholy upon Him . . . we are baptized into Him, die with Him (die to those beasts, the beasts die), are raised with Him, brand new, no beasts at all.

When a person still sins at all to me it is a clear statement that the beasts still live. The overcoming is incomplete and...if we do not overcome while we have time we cannot partake of the Tree of Life:

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.: Rev 2:7

But if we don't remember that truth, don't stand in it, we go back to acting, thinking, as if we still do have them. And then our live becomes about tracking down the beasts, and killing them, instead of living in the joy and love of unity with God, those beasts being truly gone forever.

No, wrong focus. The focus is to be what we are to seek first:

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof" Matt 6:33-34

When we are continuously involved in those two first things, God in us, the Holy Spirit, will be busy among others things, killing our beasts.

 

[amadeus]

That's the beauty of it, amadeus, all these separations, divisions, before, no one but the priest could even enter the temple, and only the holiest place the high priest, and that only once a year, lest they die.

Now, we are the temple, not the temple only, but God dwells in our hearts, we who are the redeemed. He doesn't live in one differently than another does He? He is not a respector of persons, is He? We are all the temple, God lives in us. No separation. The Holy Place.

Much love!

Now we are the priests. We have now the power of God by the Holy Spirit in us to clean ourselves up so we can enter in and so that we will not be cast out into outer darkness for not wearing a proper wedding garment. When we falter we can and must ask for help. If we are not asking amiss the help will be there and we will overcome and we will eat of the Tree of Life.

 

[bbyrd009]

Torn between the two.

prolly both

 

[amadeus]

Not totally sure what you mean here, but being born again means we are anchored by Christ within the veil, that we are accepted in Christ, and that it's not by being well behaved, it's by faith in Jesus. Perhaps to most directly address this . . .

Hebrews 4
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Much love!

Being born again to me means we have opportunity and means to do what Adam and Eve could have done before they disobeyed God. They could have gone to the other mentioned tree in the garden, the Tree of Life, and partaken of it. When they disobeyed God he set them outside the gate with no access. They along with all of their offspring were also left on the outside without access. Jesus and Holy Ghost changed that giving us access. But... we still cannot make it passed the flaming two edged sword [the Word of God, Jesus] without proper preparation and proper attire. The Word of God is the obstacle but as we know Jesus [the Word of God] is also the means to enter in...

Being born again is NOT a guarantee that we are finally saved. Rather it means that now it is a possibility. We must properly use what God has given to us... "much is given, much is required":

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48

 

[amadeus]

@marks

amadeus said: ↑
And also there is only one heaven, right? But in the following verse Jesus spoke of more than one, did He not? [one of favorites of our friend @bbyrd009 ]

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." John 3:13

Marks said: On this I'd need you to elaborate what you mean, I don't know.

Much love!

Essentially it means I believe in three heavens, but that is not a simple thing to explain and almost undoubtedly there will some error in any explanation I give but I wrote a bit over a years ago that I will copy to here that probably covers much of it:

I wonder if these would or could correspond to the three levels of the Tabernacle in the wilderness. Most believers, like most the natural Israelites could not even stand long with at Heaven No. 1. (outer court) while only those in the priesthood could go past the 1st veil to Heaven No.2 (Holy Place) . Only one priest (the High Priest) of the priests could ever go past the 2nd veil to Heaven No. 3 (Most Holy Place or Holiest of Holies) and that only once a year.

We (who could be a royal priesthood) have an advantage over those Israelites in that all of us have the potential of not only being able to pass through the 1st veil, but also the 2nd. But the route to Heaven No. 2 and Heaven No. 3 is always through Heaven No. 1. We, in spite of our advantage, find ourselves continually having to start over again as with our 1st repentance (lost our 1st love: Rev 2:4). To ever be face to face with God we must make it to Heaven No.3 where there is not and never has been any sin at all. Impossible right? For man alone it is! So we cannot walk that road alone.

Jesus said, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matt 5:48

This place of perfection with the Father is, if you can understand it, Third Heaven (behind the 2nd veil). All believers have made it by faith (belief) to 1st Heaven (although many leave regularly to sin again). They are unclean (in 1st Heaven), and they seldom stay long enough to allow themselves to be made into clean animals (dwellers in 2nd heaven).

[Here we may also see type or shadows of the three heavens depicted in the three levels of the Ark Noah built under God’s direction [Genesis chapters 6-8]. Notice that unclean animals, clean animals along with people are saved? This connects up with the beast(s) in man and/or that man is a beast.

What does it take to enter into Third Heaven?

The unclean beast nature of a man must not only become a cleaned-up beast but completely killed (Prov. 9:1-2) to enter and remain in 3rd Heaven.

This is moving from faith to faith (belief to belief) [Rom 1:17], but the final step, I believe, is moving beyond believing to a real knowledge [the end of faith: I Peter 1:9], which means no longer seeing "through a glass darkly".