The 70 Weeks Prophecy - The Ezra 6:14 Challenge

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IndianaRob

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Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times

Most people read that verse wrong. The commandment to restore and the commandment to build are two completely unrelated items.

The commandment to restore was to restore the tabernacle of David which was broken down.

The commandment to build was to build heavenly Jerusalem.
 

EclipseEventSigns

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2 Timothy 2:23-26 KJV
23) But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
24) And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25) In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26) And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

This passage comes to mind.

Much love!
Very true!! All the mocking and ridicule is very anti-christian behaviour on this thread. Many of these same people get the true censored and lock threads.
 

IndianaRob

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I’m just throwing things out there that I’ve learned through the years guys. If it helps someone then great if not then feel free to ignore :)
 
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marks

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What's the problem? Well, of course back in verse 24 Gabriel specifically says there are 70 Weeks in total. It can't possibly be 70 1/2 Weeks. So these people who don't treat the text in a consistent manner have a problem. They don't realize they have a problem. They will deny they have a problem. But that doesn't change the fact that they do indeed have a problem.
No there's no problem here. I'm going with Gabriel over you. 70 weeks.

Daniel 9:27 YLT
And he hath strengthened a covenant with many—one week, and in the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.'

Daniel 9:27 LITV
And he shall confirm a covenant with the many for one week. And in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease. And on a corner of the altar will be abominations that desolate, even until the end. And that which was decreed shall pour out on the desolator.

Daniel 9:27 KJV
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


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The ancient Jews - the native speakers of the OT Hebrew - translated this passage as shown here, he shall strengthen covenant with many one period of sevens and in the half of the period of seven shall be lifted away the sacrifice . . . Again, 70 weeks.

Much love!
 
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marks

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Very true!! All the mocking and ridicule is very anti-christian behaviour on this thread. Many of these same people get the true censored and lock threads.
That's not what made me think of this passage, your posts did. I thought his analogy was apt.

Much love!
 

marks

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Good you are feeling convicted.
Rather presumptuous . . . perhaps, or perhaps just defensive, I don't know. Why do people say the things they do?

You speak of things you don't know. Maybe you are confused. Maybe you are making things up. I'm posting to you Scripture, maybe you don't like that.

Do you want to discuss this? Show me why exactly you think there are 70 1/2 weeks being prophesied here, even though many translators disagree with you.

His analogy was like I'm trying to fix a leak in a pipe, and you tell me the way to fix that leak is to saw through the pipe. I already know that's false, and don't need to destroy any pipes to know that.

Camping out on this one point for a moment . . . how much time to you think I need to spend to know the prophecy is for 79 weeks, exactly as it's written?

Well, like I said, why do you think it's 70.5 considering the wording doesn't say that?

Much love!
 

EclipseEventSigns

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Rather presumptuous . . . perhaps, or perhaps just defensive, I don't know. Why do people say the things they do?

You speak of things you don't know. Maybe you are confused. Maybe you are making things up. I'm posting to you Scripture, maybe you don't like that.

Do you want to discuss this? Show me why exactly you think there are 70 1/2 weeks being prophesied here, even though many translators disagree with you.

Much love!
Read the post again. I said YOU and others that need to combine the 7 and 62 to get 69 have to deal with the 70 1/2 Weeks if you are consistent in your exegesis. I specifically said the text doesn't say 70 1/2 . But of course, you misrepresent and mock. Cause that's all ya got.
 

marks

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I specifically said the text doesn't say 70 1/2 .
Sorry, I must have missed that. It looked to me that you were making case for 70.5 weeks. No?

So . . . it would help if you decide to stop playing coy.

I said YOU and others that need to combine the 7 and 62 to get 69 have to deal with the 70 1/2 Weeks if you are consistent in your exegesis.
No I don't, there are 70 weeks, and the text doesn't say any different. Did you examine the quotes I posted?

But of course, you misrepresent and mock. Cause that's all ya got.
Are you getting accusatory because you are feeling defensive?

You know, I decided yesterday not to engage with you. You posted to me today, I thought, OK, I'll try again. Rudeness, presumption, accusation, these kinds of things really do not appeal to me, so, if this is how you continue, don't be surprised if I don't reply.

Much love!
 

EclipseEventSigns

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Sorry, I must have missed that. It looked to me that you were making case for 70.5 weeks. No?

So . . . it would help if you decide to stop playing coy.


No I don't, there are 70 weeks, and the text doesn't say any different. Did you examine the quotes I posted?


Are you getting accusatory because you are feeling defensive?

You know, I decided yesterday not to engage with you. You posted to me today, I thought, OK, I'll try again. Rudeness, presumption, accusation, these kinds of things really do not appeal to me, so, if this is how you continue, don't be surprised if I don't reply.

Much love!
ditto, sir.
 

EclipseEventSigns

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No there's no problem here. I'm going with Gabriel over you. 70 weeks.

Daniel 9:27 YLT
And he hath strengthened a covenant with many—one week, and in the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.'

Daniel 9:27 LITV
And he shall confirm a covenant with the many for one week. And in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease. And on a corner of the altar will be abominations that desolate, even until the end. And that which was decreed shall pour out on the desolator.

Daniel 9:27 KJV
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


View attachment 35327
View attachment 35328
The ancient Jews - the native speakers of the OT Hebrew - translated this passage as shown here, he shall strengthen covenant with many one period of sevens and in the half of the period of seven shall be lifted away the sacrifice . . . Again, 70 weeks.

Much love!
You are so confused. Even after I told you to reread the post, you still leave your misunderstandings and misrepresentation up? Oh well. Makes you look bad.

In addition, you are quoting the Greek as a proof? You do realize that isn't the original translation of the LXX translators, right? That is Theodotions translation done many centuries later. The old LXX translation was jettisoned because it was hopelessly corrupted in what it said in comparison to the Masoretic Hebrew text tradition.
 

EclipseEventSigns

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Perhaps you are not getting the message. I;m not interested in your posts any longer.

Thanks anyway!

Much love!
That's fine. Your loss. People with closed minds always find reasons not to look into things or "just happen" to misunderstand things or devolved into mocking and ridicule. Par for the course. You can stop posting any time.
 

marks

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That's fine. Your loss. People with closed minds always find reasons not to look into things or "just happen" to misunderstand things or devolved into mocking and ridicule. Par for the course.
Wisdom is justified by her children. You prove my point in your manner of speaking.

Much love!
 
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EclipseEventSigns

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Here's another clue for the Ezra 6:14 Challenge.

We've compared the various alternate English translations of Daniel 9:25 and showed just how much they vary in timing the periods of Weeks, And we've discovered the inconvenient issue for those who combine the 7 Weeks with 62 Weeks as they need to be consistent to then combine the 1 Week with 1/2 Week and then explain away the resulting 70 1/2 Weeks. Next, there's the glaring error for those that want to use the 457 BC decree as the starting point of the 70 Weeks timeline.

Daniel 9:25a is very clear that the start of the whole period is "from the going out of a word to restore and rebuild Jerusalem" [LSB]. "Sub" and "bana" in Hebrew. And very specifically tied to restoring and rebuilding Jerusalem.

Ezra 7 contains the narrative for those that want to use 457 BC as the start. Putting aside the issue about combining the 7 Weeks with the 62 Weeks inconsistency, the purpose for the decree by Artaxerxes in his 7th year simply doesn't support the 70 Weeks prophecy. No where in that chapter does it mention restoring and rebuilding Jerusalem. No "sub" and "bana". Nothing. The decree was about beautifying the temple.
[Ezr 7:23 LSB] 23 "Whatever is decreed by the God of heaven, let it be done with zeal for the house of the God of heaven, so that there will not be wrath against the kingdom of the king and his sons.
[Ezr 7:27 LSB] 27 Blessed be Yahweh, the God of our fathers, who has put [such a thing] as this in the king's heart, to beautify the house of Yahweh which is in Jerusalem,

The Temple. Not Jerusalem. Yet, some will counter with this:
[Ezr 7:25 LSB] 25 "And you, Ezra, according to the wisdom of your God which is in your hand, appoint magistrates and judges that they may judge all the people who are in [the province] beyond the River, [even] all those who know the laws of your God; and to anyone who does not know [the laws], you shall make [them] known.

They assume that because Ezra was supposed to set up the ruling council that somehow meant a connection with rebuilding Jerusalem. It simply does not say this. This ruling council was the start of what would later become the Great Sanhedrin. A group of religious rulers that had their headquarters in the temple. The decree of Artaxerxes in his 7th year does not meet the requirements for the start of the 70 Weeks prophecy in Daniel 9:25.

This is all part of the Ezra 6:14 Challenge.
 

EclipseEventSigns

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Here's another clue for the Ezra 6:14 Challenge.

What is with the first 7 Weeks anyway? What is the purpose behind carving out that period of 7 Weeks of years? 7 x 7. 49 years.

Every interpretation put forward must explain the reason for this period. Very few do. I have yet to see a Scriptural reason given for this period. Except for the correct interpretation, of course.

The only reason that I've seen given when someone is honest enough to tackle this inconvenient sticking point, is it took 49 years in order for Jerusalem to be restored. Really? Really! That's the best they can come up with?
So hypothetically 457 BC - 49 years = 408 BC
or hypothetically 444 BC - 49 years = 395 BC
or hypothetically 445 BC - 49 * 360 day years = 397 BC

Will someone ever make the case of where there is evidence that Jerusalem was completely rebuilt by any one of these choices: 408 BC, 395 BC or 397 BC? It's actually really shocking that some expert Biblical scholars propose this theory with a straight face (ahem, Tommy Ice) and quickly move past this hoping that no one will notice. But some of us DO notice these things.

Jerusalem faced multiple periods of destruction; it was truly a time of hardship. This period included the conquest by Antiochus Epiphanes and the Maccabean revolt. Josephus chronicled this period. Here are some passages relating how Jerusalem fared during this period with emphasis added.

“And when he [Antiochus] had pillaged the whole
city[Jerusalem]
, some of the inhabitants he slew, and
some he carried captive, together with their wives and
children, so that the multitude of those captives that
were taken alive amounted to about ten thousand. He
also burnt down the finest buildings; and when he had
overthrown the city walls,
he built a citadel in the lower
part of the city, for the place was high and overlooked
the temple, on which account he fortified it with high
walls, and towers
, and put into it a garrison of Macedonians.”
[Josephus] Antiquities XII, 5, 4

There were threats of annihilation against the people.
“When King Antiochus heard of these things, he was
very angry at what had happened: ...and that he should
conquer Judea
, and take its inhabitants for slaves, and
utterly destroy Jerusalem, and abolish the whole nation.”
[Josephus] Antiquities XII, 7, 2

“Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city; and
reared towers
of great height against the incursions of
enemies, and set guards therein.”
[Josephus] Antiquities XII, 7, 7

“...they went out of the temple. But when Antiochus
came into it, and saw how strong the place was, he
broke his oaths, and ordered his army that was there to
pluck down the walls to the ground; and when he had so
done
, he returned to Antioch.”
[Josephus] Antiquities XII, 9, 7

“I [Alexander, the son of Antiochus Epiphanes] also
give you leave to repair and rebuild your temple, and
that all be done at my expences. I also allow you to
build the walls of your city, and to erect high towers,

and that they be erected at my charge. And if there be
any fortified town that would be convenient for the
Jewish country to have very strong, let it be so built at
my expences.”
[Josephus] Antiquities XIII, 2, 3

“When Simon and Jonathan had finished these affairs,
they returned to Jerusalem, where Jonathan gathered
all the people together, and took counsel to restore the
walls of Jerusalem, and to rebuild the wall that encompassed
the temple, which had been thrown down, and to
make the places adjoining stronger by very high towers;
and besides that, to build another wall in the midst of
the city,
in order to exclude the market-place from the
garrison which was in the citadel, and by that means to
hinder them from any plenty of provisions; and moreover,
to make the fortresses that were in the country
much stronger, and more defensible, than they were before.”
[Josephus] Antiquities XIII, 5,11

“Some time after this, when Alexander, the son of Aristobulus,
made an incursion into Judea, Gabinius came
from Rome into Syria, as commander of the Roman
forces. He did many considerable actions: and particularly
made war with Alexander, since Hyrcanus was
not yet able to oppose his power, but was already attempting
to rebuild the wall of Jerusalem, which Pompey
had overthrown
although the Romans, which were
there, restrained him from that his design.”
[Josephus] Antiquities XIV, 5, 2

“And now Herod, in the eighteenth year of his reign,
and after the acts already mentioned, undertook a very
great work, that is, to build of himself the temple of God,
and make it larger in compass,
and to raise it to a most
magnificent altitude, as esteeming it to be the most glorious
of all his actions, as it really was, to bring it to perfection.”
[Josephus] Antiquities XV, 11, 1

Jerusalem, the walls and the temple faced multiple times of destruction and rebuilding over the centuries. Yes, "in times of distress". This claim that 7 Weeks of years was how long the construction took is just not accurate to history. Is there some other alternate explanation? At this point, any interpretation that combines the 7 Weeks with the 62 Weeks can not be defended.

This is all part of the Ezra 6:14 Challenge.
 

EclipseEventSigns

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Here's another clue for the Ezra 6:14 Challenge.

The Challenge has identified the following facts.

1. Ezra says there were 4 commands given allowing for the completion of the temple. When was the first one done; where is this literal decree?
[Ezr 6:14 LSB] 14b So they built and completed [the Temple] according to the decree of the God of Israel and the decree of Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia.

2. The words to restore and build - Hebrew "sub" and "bana". Where were those actual words used in Jeremiah and what exactly did they signify?
[Dan 9:2 ESV] 2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.

3. In Daniel 9:25 the phrase "the going out of a word...". The "word" is the Hebrew "dabar". It means speech, utterance, words. Daniel never uses this word to refer to an official decree by an earthly king. Never.

4. The entire contents of Daniel's prophecies would be hidden from proper interpretation until the time of the end.
[Dan 12:4 LSB] 4 "But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the time of the end; ..."

5. Bible translations of the 70 Weeks passage vary all over the place with the timing of the Weeks in the prophecy. It's so confusing since every translation puts their particular bias into the text. They have to. Hebrew does not have capital letters or punctuation so any translation will be an interpretation. The proper interpretation is all tied to the original Hebrew text. No one will understand the prophecy correctly by reading an English translation.

6. Many combine the 7 Weeks with the 62 Weeks to get a combined 69 Weeks. But they don't realize that in order to treat the text consistently, then according to the Hebrew text, they MUST also combine the following 1 Week with the 1/2 Week. All this adds up to 70 1/2 Weeks. It obviously must be 70 Weeks so they must explain this issue with their assumption.

7. There are those who use the 457 BC decree of Artaxerxes as the start of the period of 70 Weeks. Daniel 9:25 is quite specific to state that the start has to do with restoring and rebuilding Jerusalem. The 457 BC decree had nothing whatsoever to do with that; it allowed for the beautification of the Temple.
[Ezr 7:27 LSB] 27 Blessed be Yahweh, the God of our fathers, who has put [such a thing] as this in the king's heart, to beautify the house of Yahweh which is in Jerusalem,

8. There must be a specific purpose behind carving out the first period of 7 Weeks of years? What exactly is the reason for those 49 years?

All these facts must be addressed and properly explained by any interpretation of the 70 Weeks. This is all part of the Ezra 6:14 Challenge.