the 7th Trump

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:

LOL - That's funny.

What do you make of this?

Matthew 24:40-41 NIV
Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.
41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

We've been over this with GISMYS_7. Just because you're not aware of Christ's return does not mean you will be left behind. He will collect who he collects and make himself known to them. Yes some people will be left behind unfortunately.

Interestingly, the context of the scripture I quoted above tells us something
about the timing of the Second Coming. What do you make of that?

Matthew 24:38-41 NIV
For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking,
marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;
39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came
and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.
41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

 

[David in NJ]

LOL - That's funny.

What do you make of this?

Matthew 24:40-41 NIV
Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.
41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

Christ will not leave one of His Elect behind.

Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, for God has said:
“Never will I leave you,
never will I forsake you.” - Hebrews 13:5

And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
John 6:35-40

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Matthew 24:40-41 NIV
Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.
41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

Christ will not leave one of His Elect behind.

Who will he leave behind, and why?

I think the JWs believe in the opposite.
The good are left on the new earth, the others are taken away to judgment.
Very interesting view.

 

[David in NJ]

St. SteVen said:
Matthew 24:40-41 NIV
Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.
41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

Who will he leave behind, and why?

I think the JWs believe in the opposite.
The good are left on the new earth, the others are taken away to judgment.
Very interesting view.

My post is specifically directed at the false doctrine of pre-trib rapture whereby they use Matthew 25:1-13 to validate there belief system.

 

[St. SteVen]

My post is specifically directed at the false doctrine of pre-trib rapture whereby they use Matthew 25:1-13 to validate there belief system.

As I understand it, there are four doctrines of the Rapture. Pre-/Mid-/Post-/Pan
At least three have biblical support. So... I wouldn't label any of them as "false". IMHO
Which view do you subscribe to? And on what do you base that choice?
Some do no t believe in a Rapture at all. That's another option.

 

[David in NJ]

As I understand it, there are four doctrines of the Rapture. Pre-/Mid-/Post-/Pan
At least three have biblical support. So... I wouldn't label any of them as "false". IMHO
Which view do you subscribe to? And on what do you base that choice?
Some do no t believe in a Rapture at all. That's another option.

So far, no one has been able to post a single passage of scripture that declares a 'pre-trib' rapture.

At the Second Coming of Christ is the Resurrection followed immediately by the Rapture = 1 Thess 4:13-18 , 1 Cor ch15 , Heb 9:28

Tribulation is not God's Wrath as no Believer is exempt from tribulation, even the Great Tribulation = Matt ch24 , 1 & 2 Thess , Revelation

There has never been proclaimed from any OT Prophet or Allegory, nor from the Gospel, nor from the Apostles a pre-trib rapture.

In every scripture that those who hold the pre-trib view they must add to God's words or subtract from them in order for pre-trib to stand.

Today, pre-trib theory is the 'golden calf' of the OT when Moses went up to the Mountain while the people waited for his return.

 

[Keraz]

This does not nullify the 7th and Last Trump.

Revelation repeats itself.

Revelation Prophesies future events and describes them.
It is quite evident that Jesus does not actually return when the Seventh Trumpet is blown. The Seven Bowls have to be poured first, culminating in the Seventh Bowl, Revelation 16:16-18; the Battle of Armageddon.

So, the Second Coming of Christ at the end of the Tribulation, ushering in the Millennial reign?
Therefore, not the last Trump?

No. The Last and final Trumpet call, will be to raise all the dead to stand before God in Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15

 

[St. SteVen]

So far, no one has been able to post a single passage of scripture that declares a 'pre-trib' rapture.

Well... let's get this party started. - LOL
I'll argue the Pre-Trib POV, you can offer rebuttal. Thanks.

Here are three scriptures. Note the bold.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 NIV
Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:51-58 NIV
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[a]
55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”[b]
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

John 14:1-3 NIV
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God[a]; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

 

[St. SteVen]

Today, pre-trib theory is the 'golden calf' of the OT when Moses went up to the Mountain while the people waited for his return.

Strong words. (ouch) - LOL

 

[ewq1938]

Well... let's get this party started. - LOL
I'll argue the Pre-Trib POV, you can offer rebuttal. Thanks.

Here are three scriptures. Note the bold.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 NIV
Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:51-58 NIV
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[a]
55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”[b]
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

John 14:1-3 NIV
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God[a]; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

None of those support a pre-trib rapture.

 

[David in NJ]

Revelation Prophesies future events and describes them.
It is quite evident that Jesus does not actually return when the Seventh Trumpet is blown. The Seven Bowls have to be poured first, culminating in the Seventh Bowl, Revelation 16:16-18; the Battle of Armageddon.

No. The Last and final Trumpet call, will be to raise all the dead to stand before God in Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15

Yes Brother, but notice there are no trumpet calls in Rev ch20

Why?

Because the Last Trumpet Call, which is the 7th, has already been established in:
a.) Matthew ch24
b.) 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
c.) 1 Corinthians chapter 15
d.) Revelation 10:7
e.) Revelation 11:15

Once God establishes for us a certain Truth for us, He does not need to continue stating it.

i am sure you understand and know what a 'dualfold' prophecy is where in one prophetic utterance there can be an immediate or near fulfillment along with one that is further on in time.

 

[David in NJ]

Well... let's get this party started. - LOL
I'll argue the Pre-Trib POV, you can offer rebuttal. Thanks.

Here are three scriptures. Note the bold.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 NIV
Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:51-58 NIV
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[a]
55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”[b]
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

John 14:1-3 NIV
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God[a]; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Well because it comes from you my Brother i will give you a 'thumbs up' even though the scriptures you post does not make a declaration of pre-trib.

 

[David in NJ]

Well... let's get this party started. - LOL
I'll argue the Pre-Trib POV, you can offer rebuttal. Thanks.

Here are three scriptures. Note the bold.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 NIV
Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:51-58 NIV
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[a]
55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”[b]
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

John 14:1-3 NIV
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God[a]; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

#1 - Notice that there is not a single reference to any type of pre-trib escape/rapture in your verses posted.

#2 - 1 Thess 4:13-18 and 1 Cor ch15 firmly establish that ONLY at the Coming of Christ AND the Resurrection can the Rapture occur.

#3 - NEVER a rapture before the Second Coming and the Resurrection

#4 - John 14:1-3 has been fulfilled by the Lord and is continuing.

#5 - John 14:1-3 make no mention or reference to a 'pre-trib' rapture of any kind

#6 - John chapter 16 removes any aspect/opportunity of pre-trib rapture

#7 - John chapter 17 removes any aspect/opportunity of a 'pre-trib' rapture

 

[St. SteVen]

None of those support a pre-trib rapture.

I suppose it depends on your view of Christ coming to gather the saints. ???

 

[St. SteVen]

Well because it comes from you my Brother i will give you a 'thumbs up' even though the scriptures you post does not make a declaration of pre-trib.

I'm mostly just stirring things up to promote discussion.

When I used to attend End Times conferences, those folks were always Pre-Trib.
I figured they were best educated on the subject, so I didn't give the other views a lot of thought.

Which view of the Rapture do you support? Or a "no Rapture" view?
Eschatology is not my strong suit. As I understand it here is the timeline.

- Rapture
- Tribulation
- Second Coming
- Millennial Reign
- Armageddon
- Final judgement

 

[David in NJ]

I'm mostly just stirring things up to promote discussion.

When I used to attend End Times conferences, those folks were always Pre-Trib.
I figured they were best educated on the subject, so I didn't give the other views a lot of thought.

Which view of the Rapture do you support? Or a "no Rapture" view?
Eschatology is not my strong suit. As I understand it here is the timeline.

- Rapture
- Tribulation
- Second Coming
- Millennial Reign
- Armageddon
- Final judgement

Another Brother in the Lord who i converse with via phone will take the opposing view of subject matter when we speak just so that, together, we can challenge any position on any given biblical subject matter.

However, we finalize the discussion on what Scripture says = without adding our own words to it or denying/avoiding what it does say.

The Scriptural Timeline is:
- Antichrist and GT comes before the Second Coming = Daniel ch7 and ch9 and ch12 , Matt ch24 , 2 Thess ch2 , 1 John ch2 -ch3
- His Second Coming = Zech ch14 , Heb 9:28 , Matt ch24 , 1 Thess 1:10 , 4:13-18 , 2 Thess ch2 , OT Prophets , Revelation ch19
- Resurrection of the dead in Christ First = Daniel ch12 , 1 Thess 4:13-18 , 1 Cor ch15 , Mark 12:24-27
- Rapture ONLY after the Resurrection at His Coming = 1 Thess 4:13-18 , 1 Cor ch15 , Daniel ch12 , Rev 20:4-6
- Millennial Reign = Revelation 2:24-29 , Rev11:16-19 , Rev 20:1-6
- Armageddon = Rev 20:7-10
- Final Judgement = Rev 20:11-15

 

[St. SteVen]

The Scriptural Timeline is:
- Antichrist and GT comes before the Second Coming = Daniel ch7 and ch9 and ch12 , Matt ch24 , 2 Thess ch2 , 1 John ch2 -ch3
- His Second Coming = Zech ch14 , Heb 9:28 , Matt ch24 , 1 Thess 1:10 , 4:13-18 , 2 Thess ch2 , OT Prophets , Revelation ch19
- Resurrection of the dead in Christ First = Daniel ch12 , 1 Thess 4:13-18 , 1 Cor ch15 , Mark 12:24-27
- Rapture ONLY after the Resurrection at His Coming = 1 Thess 4:13-18 , 1 Cor ch15 , Daniel ch12 , Rev 20:4-6
- Millennial Reign = Revelation 2:24-29 , Rev11:16-19 , Rev 20:1-6
- Armageddon = Rev 20:7-10
- Final Judgement = Rev 20:11-15

Here's a question.
What is the point of a Post-Tribulation Rapture?

What are we being raptured from?
Isn't that a U-Turn Rapture?
Or will we miss the Millennium?

 

[David in NJ]

Here's a question.
What is the point of a Post-Tribulation Rapture?

What are we being raptured from?
Isn't that a U-Turn Rapture?
Or will we miss the Millennium?

The Lord Jesus Christ said HE is the Way the Truth and the Life.

As HE is the Way, HE says to us: "take up your cross and follow Me."

If you take the time this week to read 1 Thessalonians you will see the Apostle Paul instructing them that tribulation, even unto death, is expected for us who have been Saved and are now a inseparable part of Christ.

What we are promised by God thru Christ and in 1 Thessalonians is this = "Jesus our Deliverer from the wrath to come".

2 Thessalonians follows with the same theme = tribulation from the world against the Saved but deliverence from the Wrath of God.

Please let this be engraven in your mind and heart = 1 Thess 3:13 and 4:13-14

Peace

 

[Keraz]

Yes Brother, but notice there are no trumpet calls in Rev ch20

The Last Trumpet is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:52,
It is proved that Pauls Prophecy in 1 Cor 15:50-56, refers to the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium, when Death will be no more. Paralleled by; Revelation 21:4 THEN - There shall be an end to Death...as the old order has passed away.

The belief that anyone receives immortality before the GWT Judgment, is false teaching and cannot happen.

 

[David in NJ]

The Last Trumpet is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:52,
It is proved that Pauls Prophecy in 1 Cor 15:50-56, refers to the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium, when Death will be no more. Paralleled by; Revelation 21:4 THEN - There shall be an end to Death...as the old order has passed away.

The belief that anyone receives immortality before the GWT Judgment, is false teaching and cannot happen.

Every Blood washed Saint receives Eternal Life thru the Lord Jesus Christ before we leave this earth.

John 10:25-30
Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.”

John 11:24-26
Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.
And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 17:1-5
Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Eternal Life is where the Saints who have died are currently in Heaven = Revelation

Immortal Glorified Resurrected Bodies comes at His Second Coming = 1 Thess 4:13-18 , 1 Cor ch15 , 1 John 3:1-3