The 9 incredible verses of Romans 6:15-23

[John Zain]

Paul’s purpose for writing Romans 6:15-23 …
Paul was giving the Roman Christians genuine reasons why
they are able to stop being slaves of sin, which results in eternal death!

Romans 6:

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?
Certainly not!
• They are sinning because they are “under grace” (and believe in OSAS?).

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey,
you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether (slaves) of sin leading to death,
or (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness?
• They can choose who they want to be the slaves of: sin or obedience.

17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin,
yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
• They believed in the gospel, were born again, and were delivered from the bondage of sin.

18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
• Having been born-again caused them to be set free from sin, and
(with the help of the Holy Spirit) to be ABLE to be slaves of righteousness.

19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh.
For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness,
and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness,
so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
• Paul tells them to really actually BE slaves of righteousness.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
• In their old lives, they were free: there was NO choice to be made (re: 6:16).

21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed?
For the end of those things is death.
• All they had was eternal death, which is the wages of their sin.

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God,
you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
• Since they were sinning, were they really slaves of God (yet)? NO.

23 For the wages of sin is (eternal) death,
but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
• The opposite of sinning is … NOT sinning and being “in Christ” unto eternal life.

This passage is a perfect example of Paul’s super-tactful method of writing
to the churches, all of which he founded (except this church at Rome).

His method was to mix together: blessings, edifications, warnings, exhortations,
threats, explanations, encouragements, promises, etc.
IMO, one reason was so he would not be unpopular or unwelcome in these churches.

This passage reveals:
• BACs are capable of being slaves of God, slaves of obedience, slaves of righteousness.
• BACs can actually attain righteousness and holiness on the way to eternal life.
• All sinners, and slaves of sin, deserve and receive eternal death (see 6:16, 6:21, 6:23).
• OSAS is false.

 

[FHII]

Not sure.... But there is some thing off about this. I love Romans 6! But there is something off about the presentation. It might have something to do with Romans 5. And Romans 8. Well, Romans 5 tells me that no matter how much sin I have, grace abounds even more so. And Romans 8 tells me that nothing can separate me from the love of Christ. Not even me!

I have never defended sin.... But I always defend God's grace as sufficient for any sin I do.

But again.... Maybe I'm off in understanding this post. I just think we can't isolate a few verses from the message as a whole.

And let's be real... This post is nothing more than an effort to discredit predestination and introduce works into the equation. For example.... The Holy Ghost (the spirit of truth, Jesus' spirit, the Father's spirit, the Truth) really doesn't need my help, as this post suggests.

 

[John Zain]

This post is nothing more than an effort to discredit predestination and introduce works into the equation.
For example.... The Holy Ghost (the spirit of truth, Jesus' spirit, the Father's spirit, the Truth)
really doesn't need my help, as this post suggests.

The "elect", those elected before the foundation of the world, will be saved.
But, IMO, not all BACs are part of God's elect.
I.E. a BAC can fall away, fall from grace, reject salvation, etc.

Please read the post again.
Are you really saying that the Holy Spirit chooses for the BAC ...
chooses whether he will be a slave of sin or a slave of obedience, etc.?

 

[Levi]

The "elect", those elected before the foundation of the world, will be saved.
But, IMO, not all BACs are part of God's elect.
I.E. a BAC can fall away, fall from grace, reject salvation, etc.

Please read the post again.
Are you really saying that the Holy Spirit chooses for the BAC ...
chooses whether he will be a slave of sin or a slave of obedience, etc.?

I can't answer for FHII, but we are given grace which empowers us to be slaves of obedience

IMO, what you have said gives more 'power' to the flesh, than to God Himself. It does say, He will finish the work He began in you.

 

[John Zain]

... we are given grace which empowers us to be slaves of obedience
IMO, what you have said gives more 'power' to the flesh, than to God Himself.
It does say, He will finish the work He began in you.

Yes, empowerment definitely for those who are willing to co-operate.
This does not apply to those who choose to return to their old sins.
One verse! ... got any more?

The many dozens of warnings are there for a purpose!
They were not written to be taken as false warnings, as you are doing.

 

[day]

Not sure.... But there is some thing off about this. I love Romans 6! But there is something off about the presentation. It might have something to do with Romans 5. And Romans 8. Well, Romans 5 tells me that no matter how much sin I have, grace abounds even more so. And Romans 8 tells me that nothing can separate me from the love of Christ. Not even me!

I have never defended sin.... But I always defend God's grace as sufficient for any sin I do.

But again.... Maybe I'm off in understanding this post. I just think we can't isolate a few verses from the message as a whole.

And let's be real... This post is nothing more than an effort to discredit predestination and introduce works into the equation. For example.... The Holy Ghost (the spirit of truth, Jesus' spirit, the Father's spirit, the Truth) really doesn't need my help, as this post suggests.

Romans 5 - no matter how much sin you have, God has enough grace to cover it, means that no one has been so bad in the past that they are beyond saving in the present if they repent.
Romans 8 - nothing separates us from God's love. That is true of all people saved and unsaved. The only thing that can separate us from God in eternity is our willful disobedience in the present.
God's plan is to transform us by the power of the Holy Spirit but he conditions it on our consent. Genesis 3 - Adam started out in obedience but later rebelled, choosing the "I'll transform myself by knowing good and evil" plan. Anywhere along the path we can do the same.

 

[John Zain]

Please consider what I have been involved with for months now.

And that is ...

What if the promises, esp. Paul's, are only for the elect?
I.E. the ones God elected before the foundation of the world.

These are obviously the ones in Romans 8:28-30.
These are the ones who continue faithfully, and many etc's, until death.

And these are not all BACs, some of which fall away from the faith, fall from grace, etc.

 

[FHII]

The "elect", those elected before the foundation of the world, will be saved.
But, IMO, not all BACs are part of God's elect.
I.E. a BAC can fall away, fall from grace, reject salvation, etc.

Please read the post again.
Are you really saying that the Holy Spirit chooses for the BAC ...
chooses whether he will be a slave of sin or a slave of obedience, etc.?

I have read and re-read your post several times. What you have written here I'm not really in disagreeance with. BAC (born again Christians) cannot fall from grace however. Only because the never really were. In 1st John we read and understand that such was never really a part of of, because if they were, they would have continued.

I understand they did the same things we did, and looked (spiritually) like us, but they weren't of us. So no, I don't agree that a real BAC can fall from grace. They may have been the "called" but they weren't the "chosen". they weren't really the "elect".

Yes, I am saying that God choses the elect and the BAC. I don't distinquish between the H.G. and God, by the way. I have verses that state, "you have not chosen me, but I chose you!", "No man can come to me unless my Father draw him" and "all that are mine WILL come!". God chose us. He first entered our lives and predestinated us. I have enough verses on that to believe it and know it is true and combat any opinion contrary.

That is not to say we don't have some work to do ourselves. That is, spiritual works. If you believe that the Old Testament was a foreshadowing of things to come, then you realize that God always told Israel HE would deliver them from the enemy! But Israel always had to go out and fight! But God took the credit! Well, if that's a shadow of things to come, we still have a battle, but it's not carnal. It's a spiritual battle. And God still gets the credit!!!

Now, I am not a slave to sin. I don't even acknowledge sin. Jesus conquered it so I don't even think about it. I truly don't even wrestle with it. I'm actually a descent person, but I don't wrestle with beer drinking, or smoking, or looking at pretty women.... I still have a beer and a cigar and look at pretty women.... But I understand that's covered by grace. Now, I don't drink myself into drunkeness because the wife will be upset and I do stupid things. I don't smoke so many cigars cause I understand it'll give me cancer. I don't act upon the pretty women (or stare at them too much) cause I understand that if I actually to that, it'll strain my marriage.

But even if I do those things, I'm covered by grace.

But aside from that, I think this is really an assault on the OSAS doctrine. I don't subscribe to all of that doctrine, but I do believe the Bible when it speaks of nothing being able to separate us.

Romans 5 - no matter how much sin you have, God has enough grace to cover it, means that no one has been so bad in the past that they are beyond saving in the present if they repent.
Romans 8 - nothing separates us from God's love. That is true of all people saved and unsaved. The only thing that can separate us from God in eternity is our willful disobedience in the present.
God's plan is to transform us by the power of the Holy Spirit but he conditions it on our consent. Genesis 3 - Adam started out in obedience but later rebelled, choosing the "I'll transform myself by knowing good and evil" plan. Anywhere along the path we can do the same.

On ROmans 5.... Well there's a problem.... The blood of bulls and of goats was enough to cover past sins. How is it that Jesus did better? Jesus doesn't just cover past sins (like the bulls and bullocks) but he covers ALL sins, past present and future. Read Hebrews 10.

ROmans 8 tells us that NOTHING can separate us from the Love of Christ. No problem there....

Please consider what I have been involved with for months now.

And that is ...

What if the promises, esp. Paul's, are only for the elect?
I.E. the ones God elected before the foundation of the world.

These are obviously the ones in Romans 8:28-30.
These are the ones who continue faithfully, and many etc's, until death.

And these are not all BACs, some of which fall away from the faith, fall from grace, etc.

Well, they are ONLY for the elect! The problem is we don't know who that is.... We don't even know if we ourselves are part of it, but are told to increase our faith DAILY. I don't treat anyone I ever meet ill, because I really don't know if they are the elect or not. Paul killed Christians... By sight I wouldn't join myself to him! But he was chosen by God and became a mighty Apostle!

You can't go by what the flesh does....

 

[John Zain]

Hi FHill,

Thanks for sharing your opinions!

I have a list of dozens of verses (one line per verse)
that warn of losing eternal life, not having eternal life, etc.
If you wish, I'll post them for you.

 

[FHII]

Hi FHill,

Thanks for sharing your opinions!

I have a list of dozens of verses (one line per verse)
that warn of losing eternal life, not having eternal life, etc.
If you wish, I'll post them for you.

By all means, do post them! I guarentee I will amen every one of them. But I go back to the notion that we don't lose it, but that we never had it.

And I have HUNDREDS of verses that say we were predestined, and UNLESS you list a spiritual sin, that anything we do in the flesh is forgivable and covered by grace.

I think my way's actually harder. Is one of your verses Hebrews 10:25? My list has that....

 

[Webers_Home]

.
The sixth chapter of Romans wasn't penned for the amusement of the world
at large. According to Rom 1:6, it was penned for the benefit of those who
are the called of Jesus Christ.

The koiné Greek word for "called" is a bit ambiguous; viz: it can be
translated a couple of ways; for example:

†. Matt 22:14 . . For many are called, but few are chosen.

In that example; the word kletos (klay-tos') means "invited". In the next
example; kletos means something else.

†. Rom 1:1 . . Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set
apart for the gospel of God

In that example; kletos means "appointed". The same sense is repeated a
couple of verses later in the same chapter.

†. Rom 1:6 . . And you also are among those who are called to belong to
Jesus Christ.

Point being: the information contained in the sixth chapter of Romans is
insider information. In other words; in order to properly understand, and to
accept, and to correctly apply that chapter, it's necessary to be one of
Christ's people by appointment; viz: by Christ's personal selection. Non
appointees are left to their own imaginations as to what they think the sixth
chapter might be saying; and of course their thoughts typically tend to be
anti-OSAS.

In passing, I think it's appropriate to point out that the epistle to Rome's
believers was actually a letter; which means that when people for whom the
letter isn't intended begin nosing around in it, they're tampering with other
people's mail.

It's really hilarious when those nosey people attempt to interpret the letter
for Christ's appointees as if Christ's appointees can't do it on their own. You
know; if insiders can't understand their own mail without assistance from
outsiders, then writing those letters to them was futile. It would have been
better to write the letters to outsiders who could then relay the information,
along with commentary of course, to the people for whose benefit the letter
was written; in effect, acting as interpreters between the author and those
who are the called of Jesus Christ.

Buen Camino
/

 

[John Zain]

I haven't anyone yet anywhere who seems to understand (from their comments)
what is going on with Romans 6:15-23.

 

[Webers_Home]

I haven't anyone yet anywhere who seems to understand (from their
comments) what is going on with Romans 6:15-23.

That's because you're ill-equipped to recognize the truth whenever, and
wherever, you encounter it; viz: those of us who are the called of Jesus
Christ have an advantage.

†. John 16:13 . .When He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you
into all truth

†. 1Cor 2:12-15 . . Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but
the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been
freely given to us by God.

. . .These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches
but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they
are absurd to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually
discerned.

Buen Camino
/

 

[John Zain]

That's because you're ill-equipped to recognize the truth whenever, and
wherever, you encounter it; viz: those of us who are the called of Jesus
Christ have an advantage.

[SIZE=12pt]

Yup, definitely a nut-job ... buyer beware![/SIZE]

 

[Prentis]

Yes, empowerment definitely for those who are willing to co-operate.
This does not apply to those who choose to return to their old sins.
One verse! ... got any more?

The many dozens of warnings are there for a purpose!
They were not written to be taken as false warnings, as you are doing.

We are empowered so long as we co-operate! Amen, well said.

We are warned that we can err concerning the faith, fall away, be cut off... And these warnings are real. Jesus said "he who endures to the end shall be saved".

This is why we must continue our walks in sobriety and walk gently on the earth.

Some while claiming not to defend sin defend the sin nature that is in the fallen man. But we are not offered salvation in the carnal comfort of our sin nature, rather God has made available to us his nature, that his condemnation of the sin nature may come to pass upon it and we may now live through the new nature, created in Christ in true holiness. When men defend themselves in their sin nature as being accepted of God they (unknowingly) defend what God has condemned. But if we submit this, our own life, to the consuming fire of God and to his judgment, then we receive his life. We die with him that we might be raised in new life with him!

 

[John Zain]

When men defend themselves in their sin nature as being accepted of God
they (unknowingly) defend what God has condemned.

Yes, this is the tremendous failure of our churches!

I was about to ask where you were educated, and then looked up and saw Mow-ree-all.
Do they still teach proper English in the down-and-dirty public schools?
BTW, I was raised in Toronto.

 

[FHII]

That's because you're ill-equipped to recognize the truth whenever, and
wherever, you encounter it; viz: those of us who are the called of Jesus
Christ have an advantage.

Look, I may not agree with him.... But there's no need for this... If this thread is going to spiral downward into bashing the person instead of analyzing the issues, I'm not going to be participating in this thread.

I haven't anyone yet anywhere who seems to understand (from their comments)
what is going on with Romans 6:15-23.

It's very simple.... He explaining that we are no longer servants of sin and death, but now the servants of Christ. But based on your comments in red, I don't think you see the point of view that we are servants because of grace through faith (and not of our works or fleshly performance. I conclude that after reading Romans 5, Romans 7 and Romans 6:1-14 (especially verse 14 which tells us WHY sin has no dominion over us: because we are not under the law, but under grace.

So let me discuss your opening statements and your conclusions:

Paul’s purpose for writing Romans 6:15-23 …
Paul was giving the Roman Christians genuine reasons why
they are able to stop being slaves of sin, which results in eternal death!


This passage reveals:
• BACs are capable of being slaves of God, slaves of obedience, slaves of righteousness.
• BACs can actually attain righteousness and holiness on the way to eternal life.
• All sinners, and slaves of sin, deserve and receive eternal death (see 6:16, 6:21, 6:23).
• OSAS is false.

First, Romans 6:14 tells them the reason why they were able to stop being slaves to sin: grace.

Second, absolutely BAC's are capable.... but they only obtain rightousness and holiness because of grace. (eph 2... For by grace yea are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves... It is the gift from God. Not of works, lest any should boast.)

Next, yes all sinners deserve and recieve eternal death.... But again, by grace we are saved. Romans 5, 6:14 and Romans 7 and 8 explain that clearly.

As for OSAS.... What really does that have to do with the discussion? Personally, I'm not a big fan of OSAS, but I am of the notion that there are some who were chosen by God (and not ourselves) before the foundation of the world, and they are saved (before the foundation of the world)... That's what the Bible says and by other posts you seem to agree.

If your point is that we must increase our faith daily, we must work out our own salvation with fear and trembling and that every day we must run the race and persevere to the end, I wholeheartedly agree. But you aren't going to do it by works and without grace through faith, there is not one person capable of not being a sinner.

 

[Webers_Home]

If this thread is going to spiral downward into bashing the person instead of
analyzing the issues.

Were I to seriously "bash" somebody I would be a lot more creative than
simply telling it like it is.

When some of you people came on this forum to "discuss" Christianity what
did you expect to find? A colony of bee-essers like yourselves? No; some of
us are actually believers and beneficiaries of the very religion you are
attempting to analyze; and we have some very good perks; one of which is
assistance from The Spirit to properly understand, and to accept, and to
correctly apply the epistles. When somebody openly admits that they have
yet to find anyone anywhere who seems to understand (from their
comments) what is going on with Romans 6:15-23; they're telling everybody
that they are devoid of The Spirit's assistance; and having no luck trying to
figure out everything on their own.

Let me show you something; and this from someone who was appointed to
belong to Jesus Christ as per Rom 1:6.

†. 1John 2:26-27 . . I am writing these things to you about those who are
trying to lead you astray. As for you, the anointing you received from him
remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his
anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not
counterfeit-- just as it has taught you, remain in him.

That's the very advantage I was talking about in post #13, and it's the
perk about which I'm speaking in this post. The "anointing" is The Spirit
dispatched by Christ to guide his own into the truth and thereby steer
them away from clever sophistry and internet bee-ess. Most of the people
I encounter on Christian forums aren't looking for the truth; no, far from it.
What they're looking for is a sounding board and a perpetual bull session.
And God forbid that someone should have the audacity to assert that they
know what they're talking about because they'll be shouted down as bashers.
Well; if knowing what I'm talking about makes me a basher; then go ahead;
label me "definitely a nut job" and shout me down since that and endless
theorizing are about all that some of you are good for anyway.

Buen Camino
/

 

[day]

That's because you're ill-equipped to recognize the truth whenever, and
wherever, you encounter it; viz: those of us who are the called of Jesus
Christ have an advantage.


...some of us are actually believers and beneficiaries... and we have some very good perks;
one of which is assistance from The Spirit to properly understand, and to accept, and to
correctly apply the epistles.

When somebody openly admits that they have
yet to find anyone who seems to understand what is going on with Romans 6:15-23;
they're telling everybody that they are devoid of The Spirit's assistance


theorizing are about all that some of you are good for anyway.

I thought the heresy of secret knowledge was done away with long ago. A doctrine that causes division among the followers of Jesus cannot be of God. The doctrine of predestination leads to spiritual pride and elitism, resulting in the unkindness displayed in your posts. Remember in Matt 11:25 Jesus thanked the Father for revealing the secrets of his kingdom to children while hiding them from the self proclaimed "wise ones".

 

[John Zain]

First, Romans 6:14 tells them the reason why they were able to stop being slaves to sin: grace.

Second, absolutely BAC's are capable.... but they only obtain rightousness and holiness because of grace. (eph 2... For by grace yea are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves... It is the gift from God. Not of works, lest any should boast.)

Next, yes all sinners deserve and recieve eternal death.... But again, by grace we are saved. Romans 5, 6:14 and Romans 7 and 8 explain that clearly.

As for OSAS.... What really does that have to do with the discussion? Personally, I'm not a big fan of OSAS, but I am of the notion that there are some who were chosen by God (and not ourselves) before the foundation of the world, and they are saved (before the foundation of the world)... That's what the Bible says and by other posts you seem to agree.

If your point is that we must increase our faith daily, we must work out our own salvation with fear and trembling and that every day we must run the race and persevere to the end, I wholeheartedly agree. But you aren't going to do it by works and without grace through faith, there is not one person capable of not being a sinner.

Truly, you are NOT alone in this ... IMO, you have missed the whole point of Rom 6:15-23.

Paul is challenging them to make the right CHOICE of who their master will really be: sin or obedience.
Also, he is actually saying: its time to PROVE that you are slaves of God, obedience, and righteousness.

You are missing the point of how tactful Paul is.

You need to read between the lines a little, and use discernment.