The Absolute Equality of Jesus With The Father

[Ronald Nolette]

have you ever read Psalm 110?

In verse 1 it reads, "A Psalm of David. The LORD (Yehôvâh) saith unto my Lord ('Adôn), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool". Here the Lord Jesus Christ is at the Right Hand of the Father.

However, in verse 5 it reads, "The LORD (Yehôvâh) at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

Here we have "'Adôn" from verse 1, as "Yehôvâh", according to the best Hebrew textual evidence.Jesus Christ and the Father are both "Yehôvâh"

See their EQUAL Authority, because both the Father and Jesus Christ are 100% COEQUAL, regardless of your misunderstanding of the passage from 1 Corinthians 15 .

Well I read 1 Cor. 15 as it was written by the inspired writer.

Psalms 110:1 (NIV)
The LORD says to my lord: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”

Ephesians 1:19–20 (NIV)
...and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms...

Romans 8:34 (NIV)
Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

God the Father seated Jesus at His right hand. Now go learn what seated at teh right hand of the king means. Unless of course you don't think God the Father is king.

1 Cor. 15:
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

It is easy to vomit out an allegation, now show where I have misunderstood this passage.

Here is what is written:

24- Jesus will deliver the kingdom to His Father.
25 there is a time limit of His reign... "TILL" (same as until)
26 says who the the last enemy is. Rev. 20 shows WHEN that last enemy is destroyed
27. The Father put all things under Jesus feet- except HImself.
28. After Jesus subdues all things- Jesus subjects HImself to the Father.

Show me where I misunderstand this!

I will answer Tuesday. I am off to see my son and new grandbaby in St. Louis.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The TriUne God of the Holy Bible IS from Everlasting to Everlasting, without end!

No one is arguing that! We are just showing from the bible, the order within the Trinity! Not their divinity which is absolutely equal, but their position.

 

[Amazed@grace]

While the word Trinity is not in the bible, the concept is all through it, From Genesis to revelation
To the equality of Christ

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

The word Trinity does not appear, while the implication is a misconstruance of scripture.

God is not three separate but equal "persons".

God is spirit. That takes care of two of the supposed separate persons.
Jesus was prophecied in Old Testament Isaiah, and other scripture there, and fulfilled in New Testament .

Beginning in Matthew 1. The first verses to about verse 18 speaks to Jesus' maternal heritage.

Starting at verse 28 we learn of his conception be the virgin girl Mary and through the will and creative power of the holy spirit.
Mattityahu (Mat) 1 | CJB Bible | YouVersion

Holy spirit begat himself that he enter the world in flesh as the second Adam. While free of sin and empowered as God to perform miracles. And sacrifice the flesh before the witnesses unto whom he preached.
To show them the truth. That the death of the flesh is not the end of life when the holy spirit has entered the reborn faithful in him.

Eternal life was demonstrated to his followers,believers, when he resurrected from the death that appeared to take over when he was crucified on the cross.

God and Jesus, Immanuel, were one. What Does the Bible Say About If Youve Seen Me Youve Seen The Father?

The holy spirit we call God is the only one.

Christ the Lord means Christ is God.

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.

John 1:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one.”

Jesus never taught there were three distinct and seperate person's in heaven.

Trinity doctrine has an earthly history dated centuries after Christ and attributed to men.

Colossians 2:9

9 For in him (Jesus,Immanuel) the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

Hosea 13:4 But I am the Lord your God from the land of Egypt; you know no God but me, and besides me there is no savior.

Isaiah 44:8 Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any.”
James 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!

Hebrews 9:24 How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.


Trinity, tri-theism, is actually pagan in nature and source.

 

[Wrangler]

So then it is your statement that the Holy Spirit.....is not God? Jesus referred to him as an individual

Good luck with that

Do you hear yourself? An individual is not triune.

It is trinitarian dogma that the Helper, Comforter is same as the Holy Spirit of God. The point is, it is absurd to refer to text that does not state the trinity as supporting the trinity.

Jesus said about himself and this Helper that they only say what God tells them. And God sent both Jesus and this Helper. Does this sound co-equal to you?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Great point! Obviously, trinitarians do have a problem with this.

Some do, but as a trinitarian, I definitely don't have a problem with this. I actually think of my self as a Biblicist. Knowing there is one God , expressed in three entities--Father, Son and Spirit equal in eternity, equal in divine essence but holding differing positions within the god head.

 

[Wrangler]

Some do, but as a trinitarian, I definitely don't have a problem with this. I actually think of my self as a Biblicist. Knowing there is one God , expressed in three entities--Father, Son and Spirit equal in eternity, equal in divine essence but holding differing positions within the god head.

The contradiction is in claiming to being a Biblicist and these three are 'equal in divine essence but holding differing positions within the god head' and for the Bible does not say this anywhere.

The Bible says God the Father but nowhere does it say God, the Son, or God, the HS. Jesus did not teach us to pray to God in the flesh. We do not pray to the HS but for the HS.

Beings. Persons. There are entities now?

 

[Amazed@grace]

No. The concept of the trinity is contrary to the message of the entire Bible. Let's examine the beginning of Philippians since you quoted it.

2 Grace to you and shalom from God our Father and the Lord Yeshua the Messiah.
Philippians 1:2 (CJB)

Notice the absence of the trinity? Trinitarians passion is actually for the man-is-God thesis. Every epistle opens this way, acknowledging two beings, God and his son. This is because the trinity is not in the Bible. The equality of Jesus with God is explicitly reject in what I call Christianity's end game in 1 Corinthians 15 and 11:3 and throughout the Bible. Do you admit that God chose and sent Jesus and told him what to say - and not the other way around?

Save that God was the son. When all things are of and from God, God begetting himself in the womb of Mary is no different.

You can't kill God. However, the Romans could crucify to death the flesh and blood Messiah, and fulfill the purpose of the new covenant by sealing that with that blood sacrifice. As was tradition in covenant making.
Luke 22

 

[Wrangler]

Save that God was the son. When all things are of and from God, God begetting himself in the womb of Mary is no different.

God incarnate is not in Scripture. Jesus said he had not gone to his God in John 20:17 and Revelations 3.

Consider the proof text against trinitarianism. No difference between us and Jesus.


All the glory You have given to Me, I pass on to them. May that glory unify them and make them one as We are one
John 17:22 (VOICE)

 

[Amazed@grace]

God incarnate is not in Scripture.

There, as already posted throughout this thread, are many scriptures proving Jesus was God incarnate. John 1, but one example.

Jesus said he had not gone to his God in John 20:17 and Revelations 3.

Jesus was both man and God. His remarks make sense when speaking to his disciples in that way.
Thinking that passage proved Jesus was not God in flesh is to ignore all those other passages where Jesus himself identified himself as the father.
And also ignores the message from God's angel unto Mary when informing her of her purpose in bringing her son Immanuel (God with us) to life in this world.

Consider the proof text against trinitarianism. No difference between us and Jesus.

There exists no proof text that states Jesus was solely,wholly,mortal.

All the glory You have given to Me, I pass on to them. May that glory unify them and make them one as We are one

John 17:22 (VOICE)

Well done. That verse revokes your prior argument. Did you mean to do this?

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

entities

incorrect word

 

[Daniel Veler]

Let me share with you some of the things Christ told us. My Father and I are one. He is in me and I am in him. Then he says the words I spoke are not my words but my Fathers. Whatever he tells me to say I say. Again Christ said when the Holy Spirit comes he will not speak of his own but what I tell him. The Son submits himself under the Father and the Holy Spirit submits himself under Christ. What did the apostle write in 1 Corinthians that when death is defeat the son meaning Christ will deliver up his kingdom unto God and then submit himself to God that God maybe all in all. This seen in the last chapter of revelation. Ask yourself this Question why doesn’t the one talking to John say worship God and Christ. John is told to worship God.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Let me share with you some of the things Christ told us. My Father and I are one. He is in me and I am in him. Then he says the words I spoke are not my words but my Fathers. Whatever he tells me to say I say. Again Christ said when the Holy Spirit comes he will not speak of his own but what I tell him. The Son submits himself under the Father and the Holy Spirit submits himself under Christ. What did the apostle write in 1 Corinthians that when death is defeat the son meaning Christ will deliver up his kingdom unto God and then submit himself to God that God maybe all in all. This seen in the last chapter of revelation. Ask yourself this Question why doesn’t the one talking to John say worship God and Christ. John is told to worship God.

you left out some other important passages.

Hebrews 1:6, God the Father tells the angels, to "Worship" Jesus Christ
In verse 8, God the Father is addressing Jesus Christ, and says to Him, "But unto the Son he says, Your throne, O God (ο θεος, notice the Greek article, so it cannot be translated "a god"), is forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of your kingdom"
In verses 10-12, again the Father says to Jesus Christ, as THE Actual Creator: "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
In Revelation 11:15, we read of the Reign of the Father AND Jesus Christ: "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever". the words "he shall reign", is "βασιλευσει", which is in the singular number, referring to the JOINT REIGN of BOTH The Father and Jesus Christ.
In Revelation 22:1 it says, "And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb", where "Throne" is also in the singular, "του θρονου", also note the Greek here "του θεου και του αρνιου", where the article "του", is used with both nouns, "THE God and THE Lamb", which shows a clear distinction in their Persons. Again for JOINT REIGN.

 

[Daniel Veler]

you left out some other important passages.

Hebrews 1:6, God the Father tells the angels, to "Worship" Jesus Christ
In verse 8, God the Father is addressing Jesus Christ, and says to Him, "But unto the Son he says, Your throne, O God (ο θεος, notice the Greek article, so it cannot be translated "a god"), is forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of your kingdom"
In verses 10-12, again the Father says to Jesus Christ, as THE Actual Creator: "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
In Revelation 11:15, we read of the Reign of the Father AND Jesus Christ: "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever". the words "he shall reign", is "βασιλευσει", which is in the singular number, referring to the JOINT REIGN of BOTH The Father and Jesus Christ.
In Revelation 22:1 it says, "And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb", where "Throne" is also in the singular, "του θρονου", also note the Greek here "του θεου και του αρνιου", where the article "του", is used with both nouns, "THE God and THE Lamb", which shows a clear distinction in their Persons. Again for JOINT REIGN.

You left out psalms 89 Christ’s dynasty will last as long as the heavens.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

You left out psalms 89 Christ’s dynasty will last as long as the heavens.

The Kingdom of God: The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit, is from Everlasting to Everlasting!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The contradiction is in claiming to being a Biblicist and these three are 'equal in divine essence but holding differing positions within the god head' and for the Bible does not say this anywhere.

The Bible says God the Father but nowhere does it say God, the Son, or God, the HS. Jesus did not teach us to pray to God in the flesh. We do not pray to the HS but for the HS.

Beings. Persons. There are entities now?

Well as you have made enormous false assumptions about what I believe here- You should probably carry on a conversation with me, without me! You seem to want to speak for me and sat whatever you wish.

The bible says they hold different position while are are equally god, so you have a problem with the bible and not me!

We pray only to the Father

We praise and worship Father and son.

and we do this in the power of God the Holy Spirit!

But in heaven Jesus will submit to teh Father and sit on His right hand as is written. That shows the Father is above all, whether you accept it or not.

 

[Wrangler]

Well as you have made enormous false assumptions about what I believe here

No assumptions made about your beliefs. However, I thought we were theological allies here?

The bible says they hold different position while are are equally god, so you have a problem with the bible and not me!

I reject such a take on the Bible based in part what you write below.

But in heaven Jesus will submit to teh Father and sit on His right hand as is written. That shows the Father is above all, whether you accept it or not.

“I can do nothing on my own initiative or authority. Just as I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just (fair, righteous, unbiased), because I do not seek My own will, but only the will of Him who sent Me.
John 5:30

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I reject such a take on the Bible based in part what you write below.

Well here is the bible and no my take on it: 1 Cor. 15:28
New International Version
When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

New Living Translation
Then, when all things are under his authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere.

English Standard Version
When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

Berean Study Bible
And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all.

Berean Literal Bible
Now when all things shall have been put in subjection to Him, then also the Son Himself will be put in subjection to the One having put in subjection all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

King James Bible
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

New King James Version
Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

New American Standard Bible
When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

NASB 1995
When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

NASB 1977
And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all.

Amplified Bible
However, when all things are subjected to Him (Christ), then the Son Himself will also be subjected to the One (the Father) who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all [manifesting His glory without any opposition, the supreme indwelling and controlling factor of life].

Christian Standard Bible
When everything is subject to Christ, then the Son himself will also be subject to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
And when everything is subject to Christ, then the Son Himself will also be subject to the One who subjected everything to Him, so that God may be all in all.

American Standard Version
And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And when all is subjected to him, then the Son shall be subject to him who subjected all things to him, that God might be all in all.

Contemporary English Version
After everything is under the power of God's Son, he will put himself under the power of God, who put everything under his Son's power. Then God will mean everything to everyone.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then the Son also himself shall be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

English Revised Version
And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all.

Good News Translation
But when all things have been placed under Christ's rule, then he himself, the Son, will place himself under God, who placed all things under him; and God will rule completely over all.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
But when God puts everything under Christ's authority, the Son will put himself under God's authority, since God had put everything under the Son's authority. Then God will be in control of everything.

International Standard Version
But when everything has been put under him, then the Son himself will also become subject to the one who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Literal Standard Version
and when all things may be subjected to Him, then also the Son Himself will be subject to Him, who subjected to Him all things, that God may be the all in all.

NET Bible
And when all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all.

New Heart English Bible
When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.

Weymouth New Testament
But when the whole universe has been made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also become subject to Him who has made the universe subject to Him, in order that GOD may be all in all.

World English Bible
When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.

Young's Literal Translation
and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.

My "take" is in line with 27 English tranlsations and if you wish, I can post a Greek and a Hebrew NT translation that match this as well.

Obviously you do not take this verse as literal and decided to reinterpret it.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Well here is the bible and no my take on it: 1 Cor. 15:28
New International Version
When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

New Living Translation
Then, when all things are under his authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere.

English Standard Version
When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

Berean Study Bible
And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all.

Berean Literal Bible
Now when all things shall have been put in subjection to Him, then also the Son Himself will be put in subjection to the One having put in subjection all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

King James Bible
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

New King James Version
Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

New American Standard Bible
When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

NASB 1995
When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

NASB 1977
And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all.

Amplified Bible
However, when all things are subjected to Him (Christ), then the Son Himself will also be subjected to the One (the Father) who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all [manifesting His glory without any opposition, the supreme indwelling and controlling factor of life].

Christian Standard Bible
When everything is subject to Christ, then the Son himself will also be subject to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
And when everything is subject to Christ, then the Son Himself will also be subject to the One who subjected everything to Him, so that God may be all in all.

American Standard Version
And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And when all is subjected to him, then the Son shall be subject to him who subjected all things to him, that God might be all in all.

Contemporary English Version
After everything is under the power of God's Son, he will put himself under the power of God, who put everything under his Son's power. Then God will mean everything to everyone.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then the Son also himself shall be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

English Revised Version
And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all.

Good News Translation
But when all things have been placed under Christ's rule, then he himself, the Son, will place himself under God, who placed all things under him; and God will rule completely over all.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
But when God puts everything under Christ's authority, the Son will put himself under God's authority, since God had put everything under the Son's authority. Then God will be in control of everything.

International Standard Version
But when everything has been put under him, then the Son himself will also become subject to the one who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Literal Standard Version
and when all things may be subjected to Him, then also the Son Himself will be subject to Him, who subjected to Him all things, that God may be the all in all.

NET Bible
And when all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all.

New Heart English Bible
When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.

Weymouth New Testament
But when the whole universe has been made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also become subject to Him who has made the universe subject to Him, in order that GOD may be all in all.

World English Bible
When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.

Young's Literal Translation
and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.

My "take" is in line with 27 English tranlsations and if you wish, I can post a Greek and a Hebrew NT translation that match this as well.

Obviously you do not take this verse as literal and decided to reinterpret it.

still banging that worn out drum, on this passage that you simply don't grasp!

 

[Wrangler]

Well here is the bible and no my take on it: 1 Cor. 15:28

My "take" is in line with 27 English tranlsations and if you wish, I can post a Greek and a Hebrew NT translation that match this as well.

Obviously you do not take this verse as literal and decided to reinterpret it.

I have no idea how you suppose 1 Cor. 15:28 supports the notion Jesus is God when it says the precise opposite! It does not parse "Jesus" with "the Father" but Jesus with God - in his unitarian nature. So, we agree that there is no absolute equality between Jesus and God (who alone is the Father as it says in every epistle). Not sure why, in this thread, you want to debate with me your idea that Jesus is a subordinate deity.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

still banging that worn out drum, on this passage that you simply don't grasp!

Well post the verse and explain how I am banging that drum wrong! Saying I am wrong is easy. Showing me takes willingness and a heart to instruct! So I await you showing me how I am misunderstanding 29 translations. How Jesus placing HImself under the autrhority of the Father is not a submission and an inferior position.