The Absolute Equality of Jesus With The Father

[Wrangler]

Every English Bible says you're wrong.

Not an answer to my question. What was Jesus saying in Mark 12:29,32 and John 17:3?

 

[tigger 2]

John 1:1c

John 1:1c is mistranslated by most Bibles ("God") simply because it is the best and most-used 'proof' trinitarians have. My personal study of the Grammar of John shows that Origen was correct to show us that "a god" is a more accurate translation.

See Examining the Trinity: John 1:1c Primer - For Grammatical Rules That Supposedly "Prove" the Trinity
.....................................

Heb. 1:8
There is good evidence that the proper translation of Heb. 1:8 (as well as Ps. 45:6) is “your throne is God forever” or “God is your throne forever.”

For one thing, the definite article (“the”) is used in the NT Greek with “God” in this scripture. Not even John (who does, rarely, use theos for Jesus) uses theos with the definite article for anyone except the Only True God - the Father. - See the DEF study.

Also, if we look at some respected trinitarian authorities, we also see a preference for the “God is thy throne” rendering.

Oxford professor and famous trinitarian Bible translator, Dr. James Moffatt, has been described as “probably the greatest biblical scholar of our day.” His respected Bible translation renders Heb. 1:8 as:

“God is thy throne for ever and ever.”

University of Cambridge professor and noted New Testament language scholar, Dr. C. F. D. Moule writes that Heb. 1:8 may be “construed so as to mean Thy throne is God” - p. 32, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, Cambridge University Press, 1990 printing.

An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), renders it: “God is your throne....”

And The Bible in Living English (Byington) reads: “God is your throne....”

Another acclaimed scholar of trinitarian Christendom has translated this verse similarly and made some interesting comments. Trinitarian Dr. William Barclay,

“world-renowned Scottish New Testament interpreter, was noted as a profound scholar and a writer of extraordinary gifts .... He was the minister of Trinity Church, Renfrew, Scotland, and, later, Professor of Divinity and Biblical Criticism at the University of Glasgow.”

Dr. Barclay, in his translation of the New Testament, has also rendered Hebrews 1:8 as : “God is your throne for ever and ever.”


Famed trinitarian (Southern Baptist) New Testament Greek scholar Dr. A. T. Robertson acknowledges that either “Thy throne, O God” or “God is thy throne” may be proper renderings: “Either makes good sense.” - p. 339.


The American Standard Version (ASV), the Revised Standard Version (RSV), the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), and The New English Bible (NEB) have provided alternate readings to the traditional trinitarian rendering of the KJV at Hebrews 1:8. These alternate readings (found in footnotes) agree with Dr. Moffatt’s, Dr. Barclay’s, Smith-Goodspeed’s, Byington’s, and the New World Translation’s renderings of this scripture (“God is your throne”).


Quoted From Ps. 45

In addition to these admissions by trinitarian translators concerning Heb. 1:8, we need to look back at the Old Testament Hebrew scripture (Ps. 45:6) that Paul was quoting when he wrote Heb. 1:8.

The RSV renders it as “Your Divine throne” and a footnote provides this alternate

reading: “Or ‘your throne is a throne of God.’”


The NEB says: “Your throne is like God’s throne.”

The Holy Scriptures (JPS version) says: “Thy throne given of God.”

The Bible in Living English (Byington) says: “God is your throne.”

The Good News Bible (GNB), a very trinitarian paraphrase Bible, renders it: “The kingdom

that God has given you will last forever and ever.”

The REB has: “God has enthroned you for all eternity.”

And the NJB gives us: “your throne is from God.”

We also see the following statement by respected trinitarian scholars in a footnote for this passage:

“45:6 O God. Possibly the king’s throne is called God’s throne because he is God’s appointed regent. But it is also possible that the king himself is addressed as ‘god.’” - Ps. 45:6 f.n. in the NIV Study Bible.

In addition to the above renderings by many respected translators (most of whom are trinitarian). We have the statement by perhaps the greatest scholar of Biblical Hebrew of all, H. F. W. Gesenius. In his famous and highly respected Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Gesenius renders Ps. 45:6, “thy throne shall be a divine throne.”

For my complete study of this, see Examining the Trinity: Hebrews 1:8 - “Thy Throne, O God”

 

[kcnalp]

Not an answer to my question. What was Jesus saying in Mark 12:29,32 and John 17:3?

I quote Scripture. Why don't you?

John 3:13 (NKJV)
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Jesus is God!

 

[kcnalp]

John 1:1c

John 1:1c is mistranslated by most Bibles ("God") simply because it is the best and most-used 'proof' trinitarians have.

What are your credentials for declaring our Bible wrong? Kingdom Hall maybe?

John 1:1 (KJV)1 the Word was God.
(GenevaBible)1 that Word was God.
(ASV)1 the Word was God.
(AMP)1 the Word was God Himself.
(MontgomeryNT)1 the Word was God.
(CEB)1 the Word was God.
(CJB)1 the Word was God.
(Darby)1 the Word was God.
(ESV)1 the Word was God.
(HCSB)1 the Word was God.
(MaceNT)1 the Logos was God.
(NASB)1 the Word was God.
(NIV)1 the Word was God.
(NJB)1 the Word was God.
(NKJV)1 the Word was God.
(NRSV)1 the Word was God.
(RSV)1 the Word was God.
(TLB)1 is himself God.
(WesleyNT)1 the Word was God.
(WEY)1 the Word was God.
(YLT)1 the Word was God;
(Webster's Bible)1 the Word was God.
(MSG)1 The Word was God,

 

[Wrangler]

What are your credentials for declaring our Bible wrong?

Sad projecting. Trinitarian projection onto monotheist text is wrong.

 

[kcnalp]

Sad projecting. Trinitarian projection onto monotheist text is wrong.

Let's try again.
John 1:1 (KJV)1 the Word was God.
(GenevaBible)1 that Word was God.
(ASV)1 the Word was God.
(AMP)1 the Word was God Himself.
(MontgomeryNT)1 the Word was God.
(CEB)1 the Word was God.
(CJB)1 the Word was God.
(Darby)1 the Word was God.
(ESV)1 the Word was God.
(HCSB)1 the Word was God.
(MaceNT)1 the Logos was God.
(NASB)1 the Word was God.
(NIV)1 the Word was God.
(NJB)1 the Word was God.
(NKJV)1 the Word was God.
(NRSV)1 the Word was God.
(RSV)1 the Word was God.
(TLB)1 is himself God.
(WesleyNT)1 the Word was God.
(WEY)1 the Word was God.
(YLT)1 the Word was God;
(Webster's Bible)1 the Word was God.
(MSG)1 The Word was God,

 

[kcnalp]

Sad projecting. Trinitarian projection onto monotheist text is wrong.

Even the NWT admits Jesus is God!
NWT John 20:28
28 In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!”

 

[tigger 2]

Let's try again.
John 1:1 (KJV)1 the Word was God.
(GenevaBible)1 that Word was God.
(ASV)1 the Word was God.
(AMP)1 the Word was God Himself.
(MontgomeryNT)1 the Word was God.
(CEB)1 the Word was God.
(CJB)1 the Word was God.
(Darby)1 the Word was God.
(ESV)1 the Word was God.
(HCSB)1 the Word was God.
(MaceNT)1 the Logos was God.
(NASB)1 the Word was God.
(NIV)1 the Word was God.
(NJB)1 the Word was God.
(NKJV)1 the Word was God.
(NRSV)1 the Word was God.
(RSV)1 the Word was God.
(TLB)1 is himself God.
(WesleyNT)1 the Word was God.
(WEY)1 the Word was God.
(YLT)1 the Word was God;
(Webster's Bible)1 the Word was God.
(MSG)1 The Word was God,

.....................................................
Until someone actually examines my link to my John 1:1c study of the Grammar of John and all the proper examples therein, and then replies to the actual evidence I have found (including the proper examples), there is nothing for me to reply to.

 

[Curtis]

H

Just look at the Greek transliterated word 'logos' used in John 1. What does it mean in English? One thing logos never means, is an actual person. So where did the idea of making logos a person, and more specifically the man Yahshua?

Already dealt with.

It DOES clearly mean a person, because it states that the Logos made the world and all things, THEN was BORN INTO the world that HE had made, and manifest in the flesh, in the first 14 verses of John 1.

Unless you’re saying the Father God is who was born of Mary and manifest in the flesh, then it’s ridiculously clear that Jesus is the Logos, and that Jesus is who was WITH God, and WAS God, in the beginning, and who is co-equal with the Father, and co- creator with the Father at creation.

 

[kcnalp]

.....................................................
When someone actually examines my link to my John 1:1c study of the Grammar of John and all the proper examples therein, and then replies to the actual evidence I have found (including the proper examples), there is nothing for me to reply to.

Well yeah, because you're wrong. Even Kingdom Hall admitted you're wrong.
NWT John 20:28
28 In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!”

 

[Curtis]

Even the NWT admits Jesus is God!
NWT John 20:28
28 In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!”

On top of that, the apostles fell at His feet and worshipped Jesus after the resurrection, and He fully accepted the worship - whereas every time the apostles or angel is worshipped, they stopped the worship instantly, and told them to only worship God.

Mat 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

 

[kcnalp]

On top of that, the apostles fell at His feet and worshipped Jesus after the resurrection, and He fully accepted the worship - whereas every time the apostles or angel is worshipped, they stopped the worship instantly, and told them to only worship God.

Mat 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Excellent point!

 

[APAK]

H


Already dealt with.

It DOES clearly mean a person, because it states that the Logos made the world and all things, THEN was BORN INTO the world that HE had made, and manifest in the flesh, in the first 14 verses of John 1.

Unless you’re saying the Father God is who was born of Mary and manifest in the flesh, then it’s ridiculously clear that Jesus is the Logos, and that Jesus is who was WITH God, and WAS God, in the beginning, and who is co-equal with the Father, and co- creator with the Father at creation.

You are lost mate, adding one error upon another.....you don't do much scripture study, and for understanding I gather?

Have good Day

APAK

 

[Ronald Nolette]

“και παν κτισμα ο εστιν εν τω ουρανω και εν τη γη και υποκατω της γης και επι της θαλασσης α εστιν και τα εν αυτοις παντα ηκουσα λεγοντας τω καθημενω επι του θρονου και τω αρνιω η ευλογια και η τιμη και η δοξα και το κρατος εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων” (Revelation 5:13-14)

"And ALL of the Creation, which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them, heard I saying, to Him Who sits on the throne, and unto the Lamb, be ALL the blessing, and ALL the honour, and ALL the glory, and ALL the might, for ever and ever. And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the elders fell down and worshipped." (so emphasized in the Greek)

Note the words, “τω καθημενω επι του θρονου και τω αρνιω”, “to Him Who sits on the throne AND to the Lamb”, where the Greek conjunction, “και”, is used for “sameness”, with absolute equality. Thus, we read in chapter 22, verse 1: “And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb”. The Greek here is very important, “του θρονου του θεου και του αρνιου”, where “του θρονου” (the throne), is in the singular number. God and the Lamb, as “distinct” Persons, are united in Their Rule. This absolute unity, can also be seen in chapter 11:15, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall Reign for ever and ever”. Note the end, “He shall Reign”, which in the Greek is, “βασιλευσει”, which is in the singular number. It can refer to “His Christ”, or, to “our Lord and of His Christ”, the latter no doubt being the correct meaning, as seen from the main passage from chapter 5, and 22. Let no one suppose that there is some “subordination” with Jesus Christ to the Father, post-Incarnation, as this is proven as completely wrong from these passages in Revelation.

These passages are some of the strongest and clearest in the Holy Bible, that speak of the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. It also shows His equality with the Father, and further teaches that there are Two Persons in Scripture, Who are equally Almighty God. We read, "to Him Who (Gk, toi) sits on the throne, and to the (Gk, toi) Lamb". Where it is very clear from the Greek text, that two distinct Persons are spoken of, God the Father, and God the Son (the Lamb).

Verse 13 speaks of "every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them", which is nothing less than the entirety of the human race, "every created thing", with no exceptions. Here the entire universe ascribes "THE blessing, and THE honour, and THE glory, and THE Might", where in the Greek text, the "article [the]" is repeated with each word, signifying, "whatever blessing, and honour, and glory, and might", there is in the entire universe, as in ALL blessings, honour, glory, might, is here said to belong "to Him that sits on the throne", which is God the Father in this case. So, let us be clear here what is being taught; that, ALL, "THE blessing, and ALL THE honour, and ALL THE glory, and ALL THE might", are said EQUALLY to belong to God the Father, and God the Son. In the Book of Isaiah we read these words: "to whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like? (46:5), and in 42:8, "I am Jehovah, that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise unto graven images". It is very clear from these passages, that Almighty God would never "share" His glory, praise with another, nor can He ever be compared with, or made equal with anyone. And yet, in the passage in Revelation, this is exactly what the Apostle John, writing under the guiding of the Holy Spirit, has done! It would be nothing short of blasphemy, for the Apostle John, to have written as he did in Revelation 5:13-14, IF, Jesus Christ was a created being, as some, like the Jehovah's Witnesses falsely teach. How can the Almighty Creator God, be EVER "share" the " blessings, and honour, and glory, and might", with a someone Whom He created? Can the Creator be said to be EQUAL with His creation, IF as some blaspheme, that Jesus is a created being? Jesus Himself says in the Gospel of John, "My Father works until now, and I work" (5:17), which the Jews rightly understood as Jesus "making Himself equal (Gk, isos, "the same in quality". J H Thayer, Greek-English lexicon; "to claim for one's self the nature, rank, authority, which belongs to God, Jn. v.18", p.307. Thayer was a Unitarian, who, like the Jehovah's Witnesses, denied the Deity of Jesus Christ) to God (toi theoi)", because He had called God, "His OWN Father" (verse 18). Thus is their relationship. And in verse 23, Jesus says something that ONLY someone who was coequal to the Father could ever have said. We read: "That everyone (all humans) should honour (Gk, time, "worship, esteem, honour") the Son, even as (Gk, kathos, "just as, even as", indicating comparision) they honour the Father. He that does not honour the Son, does not honour the Father Who sent Him". Can a created being demand that SAME honour that God the Father is given? Regardless of highly exalted Jesus Christ might have been, if He were a created being, there is NO way that He could ever have used language as He does here, without blaspheming. Even as the Incarnate Son of God, Jesus Christ demanded EQUAL “HONOUR” with the Father, though He says that “The Father is greater than I” (John 14:28). Here is indeed a Great Mystery!

John then goes on to say in verse 14, “And the elders fell down and worshipped”. This “worship” is here directed to BOTH , “to Him Who sits on the throne, AND unto the Lamb”, which further shows that Jesus Christ, post-Incarnation, is 100% COEQUAL, with God the Father, and in the Godhead, His Deity is no “less”, in any way, than the Father. The fact that BOTH are WORSHIPPED TOGETHER, can only be understood to Their being also COESSENTIAL

Also, in Revelation 1:17, and 2:8, we read of Jesus Christ say of Himself, that He is, "the first and the last". Thayer says of the words, "ho protos kai ho eschatos, i.e. the eternal One" (page, 554). Which can ONLY mean that Jesus Christ is UNCREATED, and ETERNAL. Add to this the words of Jesus Christ in chapter 22, “I am THE Alpha and THE Omega, THE First and THE Last, THE Beginning and THE End”. In Isaiah 44:6, we read, “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am THE First and I am THE Last; besides me there is no god”. It is not only impossible for Jesus to have said these words about Himself, IF, as some teach, that He is no more than a mere “created” being, but, it would also be the highest form of blasphemy. However, we are confident from what we read in the Infallible Word of God, that there can be no doubt, that Jesus Christ, IS indeed ALMIGHTY GOD, without beginning or end, as are God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is equally eternal as the Father
Jesus is equally omniscient as the Father
Jesus is equally omnipotent as the Father
Jesus is equally omnipresent as the Father
Jesus is equally worshipped as the Father
Jesus is equally divine as the Father

HOWEVER:

Jesus is inferior in position to His Father who is above all.
Jesus does not even have an eternal kingdom.

1 Corinthians 15:23-28
King James Version

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Jesus is equally eternal as the Father
Jesus is equally omniscient as the Father
Jesus is equally omnipotent as the Father
Jesus is equally omnipresent as the Father
Jesus is equally worshipped as the Father
Jesus is equally divine as the Father

HOWEVER:

Jesus is inferior in position to His Father who is above all.
Jesus does not even have an eternal kingdom.

1 Corinthians 15:23-28
King James Version

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Is Jesus Christ YHWH?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Is Jesus Christ YHWH?

Yes He is Yahweh the Son. He is the second person of the one triune God. but He is not the Father.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Yes He is Yahweh the Son. He is the second person of the one triune God. but He is not the Father.

I never said that Jesus is the Father. However He is 100% co-equal to the Father

 

[Wrangler]

It's quite easy to quote Scripture. Try it.

Wow are you in denial. Below are examples of me quoting:

1. Deutoronomy 18:15-18
2. 1 Corinthians 8:6
3. Mark 12:29, 32
4. John 17:3

God did not become flesh. The word of God was put into a man’s mouth as Deutoronomy 18:15-18 said.

The only God is Jesus’ God as the resurrected Jesus said in John 20:17 and Revelations 3.

For us, there is one God, the Father.
1 Corinthians 8:6

Nonsense. Who sits on the right side of God?

Do you know the Shema? What was Jesus saying in Mark 12:29, 32 and John 17:3?

Can't answer my questions about Scripture huh?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I never said that Jesus is the Father. However He is 100% co-equal to the Father

In His deity yes, In His position in the God head- No

Scripture is clear the Father is above all, then the Son then the Spirit.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

In His deity yes, In His position in the God head- No

Scripture is clear the Father is above all, then the Son then the Spirit.

The subordination of Jesus to the Father is only from His Incarnation to His Ascension