The Age of God’s Grace

[Episkopos]

If obedience is what saves a man then does he become a savior to others? The scripture you quoted says "yourself and those who hear you".

Obedience to what?

Not hearers are justified but doers are justified. This is so basic to the faith. Hearing in the verse means to take seriously.

So, are you saying we are SAVED by our good works?

I am not against good works but they won't save a person.

It is my good work to preach the cross because ""IT"" is the power of God for salvation in this age of God's grace.

A person's good works WILL NOT SAVE THEM.

What you preach is all about the works of man and if anyone listens to you they will only see a gospel of works and will end up in Hell.



So, are you saying we are SAVED by our good works?

I am not against good works but they won't save a person.

It is my good work to preach the cross because ""IT"" is the power of God for salvation in this age of God's grace.

A person's good works WILL NOT SAVE THEM.

What you, and others, preach is all about the works of man and if anyone listens to you they will only see a gospel of works and will end up in Hell.

It's kinda like this. The difference between a rowboat and a motorboat.

The would-be motor boater receives the free gift of a motor. He then goes down to the boat, throws out the oars (works) and places the motor gently in the seat behind him. He then casts off and drifts around the lake.

When someone (like me) tells him he needs to fix the motor TO the boat then fill it with gas...he shrugs and says that is too much like works and that he is instead relying on the "done deal" of the motor.

So his state his worse than at first, drifting aimlessly but seemingly contentedly, as those who kept their oars are doing circles around him.

 

[Prentis]

Timothy was a leader, a teacher. If he was faithful in this office, he would also save those who are submitted to his authority in the Lord.

Thus 'you shall be saved, you and your household'. If one does not respect that authority, and rebels, for example, against Timothy, he is rebelling against God, and disobedient to the commands. If Timothy does not continue in his office, he is unfaithful to the commands of the Lord given to him.

Timothy saves those that hear him in that he gives them the right direction, but they must still follow. Ultimately, it is Christ through Timothy. Christ is the eternal source of salvation, in that he leads us in the way... To take this to deny that we must follow would make no sense at all.

 

[jiggyfly]

Timothy was a leader, a teacher. If he was faithful in this office, he would also save those who are submitted to his authority in the Lord.

Thus 'you shall be saved, you and your household'. If one does not respect that authority, and rebels, for example, against Timothy, he is rebelling against God, and disobedient to the commands. If Timothy does not continue in his office, he is unfaithful to the commands of the Lord given to him.

Timothy saves those that hear him in that he gives them the right direction, but they must still follow. Ultimately, it is Christ through Timothy. Christ is the eternal source of salvation, in that he leads us in the way... To take this to deny that we must follow would make no sense at all.

So you believe that salvation depends on more than Christ's work at the Cross?

Not hearers are justified but doers are justified. This is so basic to the faith. Hearing in the verse means to take seriously.

Do you have some proof that "hearing" means to take seriously? Or is it just your opinion?

 

[Episkopos]

So you believe that salvation depends on more than Christ's work at the Cross?



Do you have some proof that "hearing" means to take seriously? Or is it just your opinion?

Obedience is better than sacrifice. Those who obey the Lord will be saved. Those who hear and don't do what the Lord says are fooling themselves.
There are too many verses that say this very thing to even begin to quote.

But Jesus said it in the parable of the house built on sand or on the rock. Those who HEED the words to DO them will make it to the promise of God.

 

[Prentis]

So you believe that salvation depends on more than Christ's work at the Cross?

Of course! Otherwise everyone is saved. But it is not so. those who obey shall see the Lord's salvation.

Romans 1:5
Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name,

Do you have some proof that "hearing" means to take seriously? Or is it just your opinion?

Ever read 'it is not the hearers of the law, but the doers of the law who are justified'? The idea that they LISTEN to Timothy, that they HEAR him, implies that they are submitted to him. The brothers were living close, and saw each other daily, and so those who hear Timothy are submitted to him, and thus unto Christ.

Thus Timothy and the household he is in charge of shall be saved if he, the leader, is faithful, and thus those under him go in the way they should.

 

[RichardBurger]

Not hearers are justified but doers are justified. This is so basic to the faith. Hearing in the verse means to take seriously.



It's kinda like this. The difference between a rowboat and a motorboat.

The would-be motor boater receives the free gift of a motor. He then goes down to the boat, throws out the oars (works) and places the motor gently in the seat behind him. He then casts off and drifts around the lake.

When someone (like me) tells him he needs to fix the motor TO the boat then fill it with gas...he shrugs and says that is too much like works and that he is instead relying on the "done deal" of the motor.

So his state his worse than at first, drifting aimlessly but seemingly contentedly, as those who kept their oars are doing circles around him.

God did all that was necessary for a person's salvation on the cross. Paul said salvation was not of works least any man should boast.

Recently I was in a Sunday school setting and going to heaven was brought up. A person said, and many seconded what was said by the person; that they hoped they were good enough to get into heaven. Their witness was for their works; not the work of God on the cross.

This is the result of the gospel of works. The person had placed their hope in their works, and not in the work of Jesus on the cross and that will not get a person into heaven.

As for your analogy of works I think mine is more true to the gospel of grace.

It is said that faith is not faith unless it has works as a result. Many use the statement “you have to reach out and take it” as an example of having to do the work of taking the free gift of salvation. --- That is the way a religious man might see it. However;

“Faith is the substance of things not seen:” Heb 11:1-2
1. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2. For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. NKJV

How can you reach out, with human hands,, and take something that is not seen with the human eye? A child of God does not reach out and take the free gift of salvation, by God’s grace, by physical human actions (works).

An example: ----- A friend of mine knows I need a car to get me to the store and back so he puts his car in my driveway with gas and keys in it. He then calls me to tell me about it. --- I don’t have to look in the driveway to see if there is a car there because I trust in my friend. He wouldn’t tell me it was there if it wasn’t. In other words I have faith, trust, and confidence in my friend. --- The car is a gift, given to me by a friend. It is there ready for me to use. But I don’t need to use it right now. My friend has been a wonderful friend and now I am going to tell everyone I know about him.

----- My friend is Jesus. The car is His salvation and it is not a physical thing that can be obtained physically. --- I will not tell everyone how I got the car by my works.

Two important things to think about:
1. What if my wife tells me “how can I be sure the car is there unless I go and see.” If I listen to her, and go see, then I have lost my faith, trust, confidence in what my friend told me. My efforts to go and see has not proved my faith, “”It has proven my lack of faith.””

2. What if my wife tells me I need to go and pay my friend some money for the rental of his car and I do as she asks? Now I have replaced my friends offer of a gift with a payment and that makes his gift a paid for item. It is no longer a gift. I have put him in the car rental business.

I believe, I have faith, I trust, I have confidence, in the work that God’s Son, Jesus, accomplished on the cross. When I pass from this life into the next, His work on the cross will allow me to be in heaven with my heavenly Father. It is then that I will need to use His free gift of salvation. It is always mine to use when I pass from this life into the next.

If a person thinks that God owes them something for what they do, then to them, God owes them a payment. It is a work that creates a debt that they think must be paid by God to the worker. This is law. If a person does a work and DOES NOT expect a payment in return then that is a gift. This is grace.

Jesus’ work on the cross was under law and has resulted in God giving Him all power and authority. That is the payment for the work that Jesus did on the cross. Jesus did that work for us, so that we can become children of God “”by faith in His work.””

Today we are not saved under the law of debt and payment. We are saved by God’s grace given to us by the work of His Son on the cross. Given to us by Jesus because He loves us enough to make a plan of salvation that saves sinners and all men are sinners.
　
　

 

[jiggyfly]

Of course! Otherwise everyone is saved. But it is not so. those who obey shall see the Lord's salvation.

Obey what?

 

[RichardBurger]

Obey what?

The never ending works+faith VS faith alone debate.

All the works crowd can see is Law. They just can't believe the gospel of grace because it is a free gift to those who live in sinful flesh.

They will say that Christ died for their sins and then say that they must do works to complete the process. That means Jesus started salvation and they are required to finish it because God's grace is not great enough.

Obedience is to obey the gospel of grace. When a person believes, trusts, has faith and cofidence in Jesus' work on the cross they are obedient to God in this age of grace.

 

[Episkopos]

God did all that was necessary for a person's salvation on the cross. Paul said salvation was not of works least any man should boast.

Recently I was in a Sunday school setting and going to heaven was brought up. A person said, and many seconded what was said by the person; that they hoped they were good enough to get into heaven. Their witness was for their works; not the work of God on the cross.

This is the result of the gospel of works. The person had placed their hope in their works, and not in the work of Jesus on the cross and that will not get a person into heaven.

As for your analogy of works I think mine is more true to the gospel of grace.

It is said that faith is not faith unless it has works as a result. Many use the statement “you have to reach out and take it” as an example of having to do the work of taking the free gift of salvation. --- That is the way a religious man might see it. However;

“Faith is the substance of things not seen:” Heb 11:1-2
1. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2. For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. NKJV

How can you reach out, with human hands,, and take something that is not seen with the human eye? A child of God does not reach out and take the free gift of salvation, by God’s grace, by physical human actions (works).

An example: ----- A friend of mine knows I need a car to get me to the store and back so he puts his car in my driveway with gas and keys in it. He then calls me to tell me about it. --- I don’t have to look in the driveway to see if there is a car there because I trust in my friend. He wouldn’t tell me it was there if it wasn’t. In other words I have faith, trust, and confidence in my friend. --- The car is a gift, given to me by a friend. It is there ready for me to use. But I don’t need to use it right now. My friend has been a wonderful friend and now I am going to tell everyone I know about him.

----- My friend is Jesus. The car is His salvation and it is not a physical thing that can be obtained physically. --- I will not tell everyone how I got the car by my works.

Two important things to think about:
1. What if my wife tells me “how can I be sure the car is there unless I go and see.” If I listen to her, and go see, then I have lost my faith, trust, confidence in what my friend told me. My efforts to go and see has not proved my faith, “”It has proven my lack of faith.””

2. What if my wife tells me I need to go and pay my friend some money for the rental of his car and I do as she asks? Now I have replaced my friends offer of a gift with a payment and that makes his gift a paid for item. It is no longer a gift. I have put him in the car rental business.

I believe, I have faith, I trust, I have confidence, in the work that God’s Son, Jesus, accomplished on the cross. When I pass from this life into the next, His work on the cross will allow me to be in heaven with my heavenly Father. It is then that I will need to use His free gift of salvation. It is always mine to use when I pass from this life into the next.

If a person thinks that God owes them something for what they do, then to them, God owes them a payment. It is a work that creates a debt that they think must be paid by God to the worker. This is law. If a person does a work and DOES NOT expect a payment in return then that is a gift. This is grace.

Jesus’ work on the cross was under law and has resulted in God giving Him all power and authority. That is the payment for the work that Jesus did on the cross. Jesus did that work for us, so that we can become children of God “”by faith in His work.””

Today we are not saved under the law of debt and payment. We are saved by God’s grace given to us by the work of His Son on the cross. Given to us by Jesus because He loves us enough to make a plan of salvation that saves sinners and all men are sinners.
　
　

So you have a Jesus is my buddy salvation. Nice! Jesus serves you!!! You must feel very important to have such a distinguished servant!!! Of course you have it backwards! Hey, we all like being served, right???

But Jesus is the Lord and not just a buddy and a good servant for us to use when we feel the need.

You have deemed Jesus worthy of being called your buddy? I'm sure He is honoured by that distinction. But this negates the fact that WE are the ones being judged...not Jesus.

So you will be judged by YOU giving your life for Jesus to use you at any time He wants with all zeal ready to give God anything He wants.

Take the selfish viewpoint and turn it inside out to get a more accurate picture of the requirement of God.

 

[Prentis]

Obey what?

:huh:

The gospel!!!! Hello!!!

 

[jiggyfly]

:huh:

The gospel!!!! Hello!!!

Which is?

 

[Episkopos]

Which is?

That Jesus Christ is come in the flesh....that God has joined Himself to His own creation. Now we can be even as Christ through the power of the cross and the resurrection. We are made holy through HIS life in us. So we are reconciled to God.

 

[Prentis]

That Jesus Christ is come in the flesh....that God has joined Himself to His own creation. Now we can be even as Christ through the power of the cross and the resurrection. We are made holy through HIS life in us. So we are reconciled to God.

Yes! The response is repent, believe, leave everything you have and follow Jesus. If one does this, the Lord will train him... He has been entered into the race. He must then also be joined to the brothers... And grow in the Lord to maturity, that he might be presented perfect before the Lord.

There is a proviso for the one who does not know the gospel and it's power (which is most in our time). If he follows the commands of the Lord, that is, to love his neighbour, not steal, etc, he will live. Not as a saint, but he will live.

Ultimately it's obeying whatever amount of light the Lord has given to you. In our case, the gospel.

 

[jiggyfly]

If what you say is true I wonder why Paul said we are reconciled and are made holy and righteous because of His shed blood at the cross?

Yes! The response is repent, believe, leave everything you have and follow Jesus. If one does this, the Lord will train him... He has been entered into the race. He must then also be joined to the brothers... And grow in the Lord to maturity, that he might be presented perfect before the Lord.

There is a proviso for the one who does not know the gospel and it's power (which is most in our time). If he follows the commands of the Lord, that is, to love his neighbour, not steal, etc, he will live. Not as a saint, but he will live.

Ultimately it's obeying whatever amount of light the Lord has given to you. In our case, the gospel.

Have you left everything you have/had?

 

[Prentis]

If what you say is true I wonder why Paul said we are reconciled and are made holy and righteous because of His shed blood at the cross?

Maybe we should stop looking and one scripture and building our own idea about it and read the whole word to see what it's really saying. You can see this as a cheap accusation as so often people do... But then what do you make of "I have not yet attained"? "It is no longer I who LIVES, but Christ lives in me"? "He who says he abides in him OUGHT TO WALK AS HE WALKED"? Is that just meaningless? Of course not! It bears on the reality Paul is talking about. By Christ's sacrifice we are reconciled... Then we are to walk as he walked. If we are alive in the Spirit, we ought to walk in the Spirit.

[sup]12[/sup]Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Apprehended that we might apprehend something? Of course. God is not just giving us a free pass just because we acknowledge who he is... God is building his people to be a temple, to give him glory. We are freed from Egypt to take the promised land, not sit on our buttocks! Those who do so out of ignorance, God may have mercy on. But those who seek advantage from themselves in this and do not want to move on to take the promised land by faith when God calls them to will perish in the wilderness with all they have. It is a shame to God, but men are proud of it... I have heard men proudly proclaim 'I am the perfect example of a Christian who has been following God for thirty years and still sins!" How foolish! Our failure is a shame to God, which should humble us. Men are proud of living in the wilderness their whole lives.

Have you left everything you have/had?

My desire is to hold nothing back from God. I consider not bloodlines. I consider not the things of this world to have any value in the face of the gospel of Christ. I am not walking as he walked, no... I don't want to claim something I don't have. But I believe he can do it. God will raise his standard, and people will walk as he walked, one with Christ and with the Father, and with each other. If he considers me worthy, blessed be his name. And if I fail, the responsibility is mine.

Many people answer to this with derision, 'you talk about something without even having it!' Did not Joshua believe he would take the promised land before he did? Did not David believe Goliath would fall before it happened? Did not the army sound the trumpets and march around the city before the walls of Jericho fell? We must be careful not to be as the brothers of David who attributed his faith to vain pride, and who mocked him. If we do this, we are revealing the unbelief in our hearts, and our own pride, which is set against faith.

 

[RichardBurger]

So you have a Jesus is my buddy salvation. Nice! Jesus serves you!!! You must feel very important to have such a distinguished servant!!! Of course you have it backwards! Hey, we all like being served, right???

But Jesus is the Lord and not just a buddy and a good servant for us to use when we feel the need.

You have deemed Jesus worthy of being called your buddy? I'm sure He is honoured by that distinction. But this negates the fact that WE are the ones being judged...not Jesus.

So you will be judged by YOU giving your life for Jesus to use you at any time He wants with all zeal ready to give God anything He wants.

Take the selfish viewpoint and turn it inside out to get a more accurate picture of the requirement of God.

Stupid reply that says I call Jesus my buddy. I never said that so you a bearing a false witness just as those that condemned Jesus.

I call Jesus my friend and savior. If you don't then you do not know Him.

 

[jiggyfly]

Maybe we should stop looking and one scripture and building our own idea about it and read the whole word to see what it's really saying. You can see this as a cheap accusation as so often people do... But then what do you make of "I have not yet attained"? "It is no longer I who LIVES, but Christ lives in me"? "He who says he abides in him OUGHT TO WALK AS HE WALKED"? Is that just meaningless? Of course not! It bears on the reality Paul is talking about. By Christ's sacrifice we are reconciled... Then we are to walk as he walked. If we are alive in the Spirit, we ought to walk in the Spirit.

[sup]12[/sup]Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Apprehended that we might apprehend something? Of course. God is not just giving us a free pass just because we acknowledge who he is... God is building his people to be a temple, to give him glory. We are freed from Egypt to take the promised land, not sit on our buttocks! Those who do so out of ignorance, God may have mercy on. But those who seek advantage from themselves in this and do not want to move on to take the promised land by faith when God calls them to will perish in the wilderness with all they have. It is a shame to God, but men are proud of it... I have heard men proudly proclaim 'I am the perfect example of a Christian who has been following God for thirty years and still sins!" How foolish! Our failure is a shame to God, which should humble us. Men are proud of living in the wilderness their whole lives.



My desire is to hold nothing back from God. I consider not bloodlines. I consider not the things of this world to have any value in the face of the gospel of Christ. I am not walking as he walked, no... I don't want to claim something I don't have. But I believe he can do it. God will raise his standard, and people will walk as he walked, one with Christ and with the Father, and with each other. If he considers me worthy, blessed be his name. And if I fail, the responsibility is mine.

Many people answer to this with derision, 'you talk about something without even having it!' Did not Joshua believe he would take the promised land before he did? Did not David believe Goliath would fall before it happened? Did not the army sound the trumpets and march around the city before the walls of Jericho fell? We must be careful not to be as the brothers of David who attributed his faith to vain pride, and who mocked him. If we do this, we are revealing the unbelief in our hearts, and our own pride, which is set against faith.

Exactly, let's read all of the scriptures and let's study and ask HolySpirit to reveal their true meaning, and stop parroting someone else's teachings.
You and I disagree on many things Prentis, which is OK, I doubt we will be face to face on this side. You believe one is required to walk like Jesus and I believe that we simply walk with Jesus. I do believe we are to deny self and embrace our cross, the scriptures say we are crucified with Christ not like Christ. It is a spiritual journey and not a life of do's and don'ts, we are to be transformed from within by experiencing Christ's love not by good deed doing.

I trust in Christ's work at the cross to make me justified before God and do not feel that there is any need for anything I or anyone else can do to improve on that. Accepting this is the beginning of a walk of righteousness, any attempts before accepting this truth is motivated by self. Obviously my opinion and yours are conflicting and by now I'm sure the whole forum knows it.
I also realize that you are young and I do appreciate your gifting, but you must realize that your attitude of being right all the time and your need to correct those who are much older than you spiritually can come across as disrespectful and leaves you looking like you are unteachable.

 

[Prentis]

Exactly, let's read all of the scriptures and let's study and ask HolySpirit to reveal their true meaning, and stop parroting someone else's teachings.
You and I disagree on many things Prentis, which is OK, I doubt we will be face to face on this side. You believe one is required to walk like Jesus and I believe that we are to just walk with Jesus.

I trust in Christ's work at the cross to make me justified before God and do not feel that there is any need for anything I or anyone else can do to improve on that. Accepting this is the beginning of a walk of righteousness, any attempts before accepting this truth is motivated by self. Obviously my opinion and yours are conflicting and by now I'm sure the whole forum knows it.

So no explanations for scriptures like 'he who says he abides in him ought to walk just as he walked"? "He who is born of God CANNOT sin"? Do you just brush that off?

 

[jiggyfly]

So no explanations for scriptures like 'he who says he abides in him ought to walk just as he walked"? "He who is born of God CANNOT sin"? Do you just brush that off?

Of course not but I see no sense in building up something until a proper foundation is laid.

PS by the way I edited/added to my previous post so you may want to reread it

 

[Prentis]

Of course not but I see no sense in building up something until a proper foundation is laid.

PS by the way I edited/added to my previous post so you may want to reread it

??? So you don't want to answer???

Exactly, let's read all of the scriptures and let's study and ask HolySpirit to reveal their true meaning, and stop parroting someone else's teachings.
You and I disagree on many things Prentis, which is OK, I doubt we will be face to face on this side. You believe one is required to walk like Jesus and I believe that we simply walk with Jesus. I do believe we are to deny self and embrace our cross, the scriptures say we are crucified with Christ not like Christ. It is a spiritual journey and not a life of do's and don'ts, we are to be transformed from within by experiencing Christ's love not by good deed doing.

I trust in Christ's work at the cross to make me justified before God and do not feel that there is any need for anything I or anyone else can do to improve on that. Accepting this is the beginning of a walk of righteousness, any attempts before accepting this truth is motivated by self. Obviously my opinion and yours are conflicting and by now I'm sure the whole forum knows it.
I also realize that you are young and I do appreciate your gifting, but you must realize that your attitude of being right all the time and your need to correct those who are much older than you spiritually can come across as disrespectful and leaves you looking like you are unteachable.

Believe and repent is indeed that beginning of the walk... A walk where we follow Jesus! A disciple gets no reward for beginning to follow Jesus and then giving up... The word tells us that if we do not bear fruit we will be cut off. To deny this is fundamentally wrong. Obedience to God's commands is always a good thing.

I will not be taught by anyone just because they are older than me... That makes no sense! You talk as if I should be submitted to you as unto Christ on the basis of the fact you are older, and call yourself Christian. In a functioning church, that works... Two people meeting on a forum? No.

I gave you a reason to say I disagreed, and gave you scriptures... You go on to NOT explain the scriptures, and yet say I'm the one who's not teachable! Doesn't make sense at all! :huh: