The Alternative to a Rapture

[ewq1938]

No.
1 Thess 4:16-17; happens when Jesus Returns. He only descends from heaven the once.
On His terrible Day of wrath, the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, He sends His fiery wrath, Amos 1 & 2:1-5, Psalms 11:4-6

Ok. I withdraw my earlier statement that you believed in a version of a pretrib rapture. I had thought you were describing the rapture as happening in Rev 12. Apologies.

 

[PinSeeker]

Seems we are too far apart for any sort of consensus.

Well, hard-headedness is hard to overcome.

While you grip onto the idea of the Millennium now; the AMill theory, your views of end time events mean you have to make plainly stated scriptures mean something else.

Something else that what others wrongly think they mean, yes. They impose things on these plainly stated Scriptures, inadvertently making them into something other than they are. And in doing so, very often they inadvertently make other Scriptures contradictory.

As long as you keep your Christian faith and trust in the Lord to save you, we should meet in the Holy Land. See you there!

Absolutely.

PS, I won't be critical of peoples mistakes and wrong beliefs, as I know God has hidden the truth from you. Matthew 11:25

And I would say the exact same thing to you, Keraz. Actually, not quite... Regarding your reference to Matthew 11:25, I don't think God has hidden the truth from you, but really more that you have hidden it from yourself in a way... I would encourage you to read Revelation again, but this time as a child would read it. That might be eye-opening. The Holy Spirit often works in ways that seem opposite to what we would have thought.

Here's the thing... If Revelation is clear ~ and it is; we agree on that ~ then why do so many people have trouble with it? And why is it so controversial? We have trouble because we ~ in all our "wisdom" ~ approach it from the wrong end. Suppose I start by asking, “what do the bear’s feet in Revelation 13:2 stand for?” If I start with a detail, and ignore the big picture, I am asking for trouble. God is at the center of Revelation (Revelation 4-5). So I exhort you to start with Him (!) and with the contrasts between Him, God, and his satanic opponents. I say that if instead we try right away to puzzle out details, it is as if we tried to use a knife by grasping it by the blade instead of the handle. We are starting at the wrong end. Revelation is a picture book, not a puzzle book. I would exhort you not to try to puzzle it out or become preoccupied by isolated details. Rather, I exhort you to become engrossed in the story. Praise the Lord. Cheer for the saints. Detest the Beast. Long for the final victory.

And one other thing: Revelation, though it has one theme ~ God is always in control, and Jesus wins ~ it is actually a series of stories ~ seven, to be exact ~ that are identical... in a certain sense. And to that point, regarding specifically what we have been talking about, the events that John relates/describes in Revelation 20 are not entirely chronologically subsequent to the events that John describes/relates in Revelation 19.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Zao is life]

The last days

-- God, who at many times and in many ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds, -- Hebrews 1:1.

The LORD's house

-- Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up. Then the Jews said, This temple was forty-six years building, and will you rear it up in three days?

But He spoke of the temple of His body. Therefore when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them, and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said. -- John 2:19-22

-- Jesus said to her, Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you shall neither worship the Father in this mountain nor yet at Jerusalem. You worship what you do not know, we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.

But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such to worship Him. God is a spirit, and they who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth.

The woman said to Him, I know that Messiah is coming, who is called Christ. When He has come, He will tell us all things. Jesus said to her, I AM, He speaking to you. -- John 4:21-26.

The mountain of the LORD's house. Exalted above the hills.

-- But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are written in Heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. -- Hebrews 12:22-25.

And all nations shall flow into it.

-- whom He also called, not only us, of Jews, but also of the nations? -- Romans 9:24

-- (as it has been written, "I have made you a father of many nations") --before God, whom he believed, who makes the dead live, and calls the things which do not exist as though they do exist. -- Romans 4:17

-- And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off, and to those who were near. For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

Now therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God, and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom every building having been fitly framed together, grows into a holy sanctuary in the Lord; in whom you also are built together for a dwelling place of God through the Spirit. -- Ephesians 2:17-22

Isaiah 2:2-5

-- And it shall be, in the last days the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow into it. And many people shall go and say, Come, and let us go to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob.

And He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths. For out of Zion shall go out the Law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

And He shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. O house of Jacob, come and let us walk in the light of the LORD. -- Isaiah 2:2-5

Judging among the nations

-- And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as all of you have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, all of you have done it unto me.

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as all of you did it not to one of the least of these, all of you did it not to me. -- Extract from Matthew 25:31-46

He teaches us His ways

-- God, who at many times and in many ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds, -- Hebrews 1:1.

-- And He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths. For out of Zion shall go out the Law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. -- Isaiah 2:3​

 

[Zao is life]

The Kingdom of God

-- For this is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God for which you also suffer,

since it is a righteous thing with God to repay tribulation to those who trouble you, and to give rest with us to you who are troubled, at the revealing of the Lord Jesus from Heaven with the angels of His power, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God and who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ,

who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He shall come to be glorified in His saints and to be admired in all those who believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that Day. -- 2 Thessalonians 1:5-8​

 

[Zao is life]

When He will come

-- Now we beseech you, my brothers, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you should not be soon shaken in mind or troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word or letter, as through us, as if the Day of Christ is at hand.

Let not anyone deceive you by any means. For that Day shall not come unless there first comes a falling away, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition,
who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself forth, that he is God.

Do you not remember that I told you these things when I was still with you?

And now you know what holds him back, for him to might be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already working, only he is now holding back until it comes out of the midst.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the breath of His mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming, whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, so that they might be saved.
-- 2 Thessalonians 2:1-10

The resurrection and the rapture

-- For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep.
For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.

Clouds and Air

-- Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Therefore comfort one another with these words. -- 1 Thessalonians 4:17-18

-- And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. -- Matthew 24:30-31

 

[Zao is life]

Keraz, the messenger

The messenger who says that Christians have not received the New Covenant yet, and that no one has. The messenger who says that the ushering in of the New Covenant will only come when the things have come to pass which you say the real messengers of the bible have foretold, after you've interpreted it.
​

Yet the only messengers of the last days - the real messengers of the last days - are the prophets and Psalmists, John the Baptist, Jesus and His apostles - and Jesus and His apostles all say that the New Covenant has been given to those who believe in Jesus, and came through His blood shed for the forgiveness of sins.

 

[Keraz]

The resurrection and the rapture

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 is not a 'rapture to heaven'. Or a general resurrection of the dead; only the martyrs killed by the 'beast', will be brought back to life. Revelation 20:4

I take your failure to address the OP with proper rebuttal and by flooding this thread will copy and past, to indicate that I am right.

 

[Zao is life]

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 is not a 'rapture to heaven'. Or a general resurrection of the dead; only the martyrs killed by the 'beast', will be brought back to life. Revelation 20:4

I take your failure to address the OP with proper rebuttal and by flooding this thread will copy and past, to indicate that I am right.

The messenger who says that Christians have not received the New Covenant yet, and that no one has. The messenger who says that the ushering in of the New Covenant will only come when the things have come to pass which you say the real messengers of the bible have foretold, after you've interpreted it.
​

Yet the only messengers of the last days - the real messengers of the last days - are the prophets and Psalmists, John the Baptist, Jesus and His apostles - and Jesus and His apostles all say that the New Covenant has been given to those who believe in Jesus, and came through His blood shed for the forgiveness of sins.

The real messengers of the Bible are right.

The resurrection and the rapture

-- For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep.
For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.

Clouds and Air

-- Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Therefore comfort one another with these words. -- 1 Thessalonians 4:17-18

-- And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. -- Matthew 24:30-31

There is nothing further, except the Revelation - but no mention of saints being taken into the land we now know as Israel (which is called Israel today).

 

[Keraz]

The only messengers of the last days are the prophets and Psalmists

Anyone who promotes the scriptures is a messenger of the good news of the Gospel and of the Prophetic Word.
Keraz, Strongs H8745, is an abbreviation of my given name and I promote what the Prophets have told us.

Regarding the New Covenant; If you think that Hebrews 8:8-12 has been fulfilled, you are delusional.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Firstly; the general definition of a ‘rapture’, means being taken to live in heaven. This is believed by many, to happen before the Lord punishes the world and destroys His enemies. But scripture does not clearly say that anyone will be taken to heaven, excepting for the two Witnesses, Revelation 11:12, who are the last of the Christian martyrs killed for their faith during the 42 month period when Satan has world control.

The belief in a general rapture can only be made by inference and assumption. It has gained wide acceptance because it’s the easy way out.
We must discard any pretentious ideas of escape and removal from the earth. That idea directly opposes the Great Commission and the Words of Jesus where He says that it is impossible for humans to go to heaven. John 3:13, John 17:15, Revelation 2:25

So: what are God’s Plans for His faithful people?

We live today, in a time of worldwide unrest and change, especially in the Middle East region. Many Bible Prophecies tell us that the Lord will clear and cleanse the Holy Land. Deuteronomy 32:34-43. Zephaniah 1:14-18, 2 Peter 3:7

This dramatic event, the Lord’s terrible day of vengeance and wrath, will change the world. It will result in the formation of a One World Government, Daniel 7:23-24, but the Christian peoples will travel to and live in their heritage, of the entire Holy Land area, fulfilling their destiny of being Gods Light to the world and His witnesses to the nations; Isaiah 48:3-8, Matthew 5:14-16, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 This scenario is confirmed by Isaiah 35…by the Way of Holiness….those people the Lord has redeemed, will enter Zion, with praise and thanksgiving, And in Romans 9:24-26, we Christians will be told: we are the children of the Living God, in the very same place as ancient Israel was rejected. Psalms 37:29, +

Wrong about Christians living in Israel- Israel will live in Israel!

As for the rapture Thessalonians makes it clear we are taken alive to be in heaven. the Church has a heavenly hope not an earthly hope at least through the Millenial kingdom.

Jesus even said as much in JOhn when He said He goes to prepare a place for us and if He is going, He will come to take us to heaven! It is that simple. Just trust what Jesus said!

 

[Zao is life]

Anyone who promotes the scriptures is a messenger of the good news of the Gospel and of the Prophetic Word.
Keraz, Strongs H8745, is an abbreviation of my given name and I promote what the Prophets have told us.

Regarding the New Covenant; If you think that Hebrews 8:8-12 has been fulfilled, you are delusional.

IMO you're not a messenger of the message the prophets, Psalmists, Christ and His apostles taught - and your last sentence above is the proof.

 

[Keraz]

The real messengers of the Bible are right.

They were all fallible humans, just as I am. They just wrote down what God told them to. I am promoting their Words, because God gave me that task.

but no mention of saints being taken into the land we now know as Israel

We know that Jesus will Return to the Mt of Olives, to Jerusalem. Zechariah 14:4
Do you think those whom He gathers; Mathew 24:31 and 1 Thess 4:17, go to heaven by themselves?

Anyway, the first gathering of the faithful Christian peoples into all of the Holy Land, will take place at least 10 years before Jesus Returns. Soon after the Sixth seal has cleared and cleansed all of that area. John sees us there in Revelation 7:9.

 

[Keraz]

Wrong about Christians living in Israel- Israel will live in Israel!

We Christians are the Israelites of God.
If you deny this truth, you reject the entire New Testament.

your last sentence above is the proof.

Just read Hebrews 8:8-12 and if you say it has been fulfilled, your credibility has gone.

I said earlier that I wouldn't be critical of other peoples mistakes and wrong beliefs. But God will and to promote and teach them will mean a more severe Judgment. James 3:1

 

[PinSeeker]

We Christians are the Israelites of God.

Much agreed.

Just read Hebrews 8:8-12 and if you say it has been fulfilled, your credibility has gone.

There is a sense in with it has been fulfilled, but similarly a sense that it has not yet been fulfilled:

It has been fulfilled in the sense that the time is now here, and that this is what is happening... God is putting His laws into our minds, writing them on our hearts, and He is our God.

It has not yet been fulfilled in the sense that it is not yet complete, that not all of God's Israel (Israelites) have been called by God; not all of His elect have been brought into the Israel of God... yet.

I said earlier that I wouldn't be critical of other peoples mistakes and wrong beliefs...

But you are... But no matter, because you're mistaken about their "mistakes and wrong beliefs."

But God will and to promote and teach them will mean a more severe Judgment. James 3:1

Hmmm. Those who would teach are held to a higher standard, yes. So, we're all in the same boat on that...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Wrong about Christians living in Israel- Israel will live in Israel!

Well, what about the rest of the world...? Will there be no one anywhere else other than...



You know, Jesus did say, "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth" (Matthew 5:5)...

As for the rapture Thessalonians makes it clear we are taken alive to be in heaven.

It does no such thing. We will go out ~ up ~ to meet Jesus in His coming, but there is nothing there or anywhere else that says we will be transported anywhere, much less removed from anything. The only ones who will depart or go away will be the unrepentant, the wicked, which Jesus is very clear on in Matthew 7:21-23 and in Matthew 25:41-46. And John in Revelation 20:15.

the Church has a heavenly hope not an earthly hope...

Heaven and earth will be one. Revelation 21 is very clear on that... Did you ever sing the last verse of "This is My Father's World"?

at least through the Millenial kingdom.

Well, I agree, but not in the way you think I should. This is my hope, and I assume yours as well. Now.

Jesus even said as much in JOhn when He said He goes to prepare a place for us...

Sure...

and if He is going, He will come to take us to heaven!

Well, Ronald, He will bring heaven to us. John "sees" the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And he "hears" a loud voice from the throne saying, 'Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them..." You see?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

I wouldn't be critical of other peoples mistakes and wrong beliefs.

Thanks, I appreciate that great idea!

God's Great GRACE Departure!

Of course, if this study is ignored, then there is no need for any criticism, eh?

Amen.

 

[Zao is life]

Anyway, the first gathering of the faithful Christian peoples into all of the Holy Land, will take place at least 10 years before Jesus Returns. Soon after the Sixth seal has cleared and cleansed all of that area. John sees us there in Revelation 7:9.

and at what point do they "receive the New Covenant", since you say we have no New Covenant yet?

IMO you're not a messenger of the prophetic Word of God, and you're gonna have lots of egg in your face.

 

[Keraz]

at what point do they "receive the New Covenant", since you say we have no New Covenant yet?

The faithful Christian peoples will gather near the Holy Land, where the Lord will pass them under the rod of Judgment. Ezekiel 20:34-38
They will enter the Land, with shouts of joy, as they walk along the Way of Holiness. Isaiah 35:8-10
He will be revealed to them, 2 Thess 1:10 and will stand on the Temple mount to select the 144,000, Revelation 14:1-5
At that time, He will cut the new Covenant with them, guaranteeing their/our peace and prosperity. A replay of what happened in ancient times, in Deuteronomy.

IMO you're not a messenger of the prophetic Word of God, and you're gonna have lots of egg in your face.

No doubt, I have got some things wrong, but I remain adamant that what I present from what the Prophets have told us will be what will happen. Allegories excepted -although they represent real things.
It will be those people who believed in and promoted teachings that are not Biblical who will be very embarrassed and ashamed.

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus even said as much in JOhn when He said He goes to prepare a place for us and if He is going, He will come to take us to heaven! It is that simple. Just trust what Jesus said!

That isn't what Jesus said. He said he would return, and there we would be with him. Read it for yourself:

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


Jesus said, "I go to prepare a place for you." that is regarding those who die while Christ is in heaven. Jesus will eventually leave heaven: "I will come again". That is the second coming and here is the important thing: "I will come again and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."


So where is Christ after "I will come again and receive you unto myself"? Earth. He is no longer in heaven.


"I will come again and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."


This is what Jesus said. This is what some think he said:


"I will come again and receive you unto myself AND TAKE YOU BACK TO HEAVEN; that where I am, there ye may be also."


He also did NOT say, "I will come again and receive you unto myself; that where I USED TO BE, there ye may be also."

He never said when he came back, that he was taking anyone to heaven. He comes again to Earth and where he is on Earth is where the church will be.

Also in the same chapter:

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Christ isn't returning to take anyone up to heaven to live with him and the Father but the opposite! The Father and Christ will end up coming here to make their abode on Earth with us! That's the opposite of the false pre-trib teaching!

 

[Nancy]

Typical. Shoot the messenger!

QT, If you disagree with the Prophesies I present, then the proper way of rebuttal is to provide scriptures that refute them.
With the 'rapture to heaven' theory, there can be no rebuttal, as no prophecy says any such thing.