The Alternative to a Rapture

[PinSeeker]

Rather than people being resurrected during the Millennium, more faithful Christians will die.

Ah, well, regarding the physical, that's true. But the resurrections that occur during the millennium are not physical. And not general ~ they are individual, the spiritual resurrection of all the saints, all God's elect individually, as they are born again of the Spirit and, as Paul says in Ephesians 2:6, "raised up with Christ and seated with Him in the heavenly places in Him."

My perspective, my paradigm, my belief, is the Biblical truth that no one is raised to immortality until the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium.

Mine, too... Yes, this is the hour when all who are in the tombs hear his voice and come out, either to the resurrection of life or to the resurrection of judgment (John 5:28-29). This is the second resurrection. I realize you are laser-focused on Revelation 20, and that's okay, but the correct way to understand what John is relating to us there from his vision is that this second resurrection has happened immediately prior to (or just before) the scene of the Great White Throne judgment, really in Revelation 20:11, in the fact that "from his presence earth and sky (have) fled away, and no place was found for them."

Those martyrs that Jesus will raise back to life at His Return, do not become immortal, as the example of Lazarus did not.

You're making some kind of association where there is none, here, Keraz, except to say that the second resurrection will be bodily. The resurrection of Lazarus is a foreshadowing of the second resurrection, for sure, but specifically for us, as we are loved by Jesus as Lazarus certainly was... and believe in Him, as Lazarus certainly did.

But for Lazarus and those GT martyrs, their second; natural death, will not affect their eventual receiving of immortality.

The natural, physical death of the body is not the second death. Rather, it is the first, to which all men are appointed. None of God's elect were, are, or ever will be subject to the second death (which is not a cessation of existence).

, as their names will be found Written in the Book of Life. Revelation 20:11-15

Yes, the ones who then have received the resurrected of life. These are the ones specifically referred to in Revelation 20:12. The others are specifically referred to in Revelation 20:13.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

John 14 proves that wrong.

Well, no it doesn't, but we can agree to disagree.

Nothing there about Jesus coming to earth. It just says He descends and we meet Him in the air! Nothing about us coming back to earthj after being caught up into the air.

Well, there's nothing there about Him setting foot on the ground, but I would say that's not needed. I think I said this before but I'll say it again if not... there's nothing there about Jesus removing anyone or taking anyone elsewhere.

Already showed you the bible says you are wrong.

You think you did, yes.

Jesus, who is also my fiance' and my groom to be.

The question was, Ronald, Who is your King? Right now, Ronald. Who is your King? Yes, Jesus is your ~ our ~ King. Right now. His millennial reign ~ from heaven, and until His return ~ is now. This is the time in which all of God's elect, one by one, are coming to life and reigning with Christ ~ or as Paul puts it in Ephesians 2, God is making us alive together with Christ and raising us up with Him and seating us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus. This is what is happening over the course of this "thousand years," called God's "millennium" by John in the vision given him here.

I agree with the bible as written.

Well good! Me, too!

I said we are the church several times. If you cannot read well, that is your problem not mine.

Sigh... Well, okay, but you did say, there, Ronald, that "until Rev. 21 takes place, the church is in heaven in the third heaven" and the thing is, you and I are not in heaven yet, right? Unless you're speaking to me from beyond the grave somehow... So, I get what you're saying here, but what you said in that post really (inadvertently, I guess) contradicted that. I read just fine. Maybe you should be a little more careful with some of your posts. Truth be told, your posts do seem to, well, present some issues here and there...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Keraz]

The natural, physical death of the body is not the second death. Rather, it is the first, to which all men are appointed. None of God's elect were, are, or ever will be subject to the second death (which is not a cessation of existence).

I said it applied to Lazarus and the GT martyrs. They all died, or were killed and were/will be, raised back to mortal life again. From which they can and do - naturally die again.

I agree; the second death is annihilation. ONLY those whose names are Written in the Book of Life, will receive immortality. That Book is not opened until after the Millennium.
So; any ideas, or fanciful notions of immortal people on earth or in heaven, now or in the Millennium, is wrong and impossible.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Well, there's nothing there about Him setting foot on the ground, but I would say that's not needed. I think I said this before but I'll say it again if not... there's nothing there about Jesus removing anyone or taking anyone elsewhere.

You nto learn tou8nderstand words better.

You think you did, yes.

No the bible did.

Sigh... Well, okay, but you did say, there, Ronald, that "until Rev. 21 takes place, the church is in heaven in the third heaven"

From the rapture to the return of Jesus- yes! We are on earth now physically and the souls of the dead believers are with teh Lord as Paul declared in 2 Cor.

 

[PinSeeker]

You nto learn tou8nderstand words better.

LOL! Again, there's absolutely nothing there about Jesus removing anyone or taking anyone elsewhere. Here it is:

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

It says He will descend from heaven, for sure. And we will go up to meet Him, for sure. But other than that, all it says is, we will always be with the Lord. There is no subsequent "where," it doesn't even say that He goes anywhere else, which should say to you that we don't then go somewhere else.

No the bible did.

In... your humble opinion. I mean that's okay with me...

From the rapture to the return of Jesus- yes!

There will be no rapture in the sense of any kind of removal.

We are on earth now physically and the souls of the dead believers are with teh Lord as Paul declared in 2 Cor.

Right. Sure. And for those who are still physically alive when Jesus comes back, believers will join with those resurrected on Jesus's right and unbelievers with those resurrected on Jesus's left for the final Judgment. After the Judgment, the latter will depart, and then New Jerusalem will come down from heaven to us, just as John "sees" in Revelation 21.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

I said it applied to Lazarus and the GT martyrs. They all died, or were killed and were/will be, raised back to mortal life again. From which they can and do - naturally die again.

And did, in the case of Lazarus. The martyrs and Lazarus all experienced the first resurrection ~ not all at the same time, of course ~ somewhere around 2000 years ago. And their physical bodies will be resurrected (along with all other saints who have gone on before, in the second resurrection) when Jesus returns.

...the second death is annihilation.

Nope. It's being away, separated from, the One Who is life, Christ, and placed under God's judgment ~ and only judgment ~ forever. This is the punishment they will be placed into for eternity... where they will be sent. They will depart ~ and will go obediently, when Jesus sends them away (Matthew 7:21-23; Matthew 25:41-46). It is not a cessation of existence.

ONLY those whose names are Written in the Book of Life...

...will be in the new heaven and new earth... with the One Who is life, Christ Jesus.

So; any ideas, or fanciful notions of immortal people on earth or in heaven, now or in the Millennium, is wrong and impossible.

"Immortal" is such a troublesome word for many...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Keraz]

Our Hope and our Destiny:

The Prophetic Word tells us how the Lord will save and protect His people during His terrible Day of wrath, the soon to happen Sixth Seal judgement of the nations.
Then we will be gathered and will migrate into all of the holy Land. Psalms 107, Ezekiel 34:11-16 and Isaiah 66:18b-21, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26, are some of the best prophesies about this.

We Christians are the Lord's people, His chosen; John 15:18, 1 Peter 2:8-10, and we are the people; nation, who bear the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43.

We will, in the holy Land be His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8, Acts 13:47, Ezekiel 39:27
Basically there is no need for anyone, other than the 2 Witnesses to go to heaven, Revelation 11:12, and they do not stay there, as Jesus Returns just then and they are resurrected along with all the GT martyrs. Revelation 20:4

The whole idea of a rapture removal of Christians to heaven, is not part of God's plan for His people. Therefore, a body change is not necessary or logical, before the final wrap up after the Millennium and only then will all those whose names are written in the Book of Life, receive immortality and be with God for Eternity, when God and therefore heaven will be on earth. Revelation 21:1-4

 

[quietthinker]

The Alternative to a Rapture​

hip hop?

 

[quietthinker]

Our Hope and our Destiny:

The Prophetic Word tells us how the Lord will save and protect His people during His terrible Day of wrath, the soon to happen Sixth Seal judgement of the nations.
Then we will be gathered and will migrate into all of the holy Land. Psalms 107, Ezekiel 34:11-16 and Isaiah 66:18b-21, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26, are some of the best prophesies about this.

We Christians are the Lord's people, His chosen; John 15:18, 1 Peter 2:8-10, and we are the people; nation, who bear the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43.

We will, in the holy Land be His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8, Acts 13:47, Ezekiel 39:27
Basically there is no need for anyone, other than the 2 Witnesses to go to heaven, Revelation 11:12, and they do not stay there, as Jesus Returns just then and they are resurrected along with all the GT martyrs. Revelation 20:4

The whole idea of a rapture removal of Christians to heaven, is not part of God's plan for His people. Therefore, a body change is not necessary or logical, before the final wrap up after the Millennium and only then will all those whose names are written in the Book of Life, receive immortality and be with God for Eternity, when God and therefore heaven will be on earth. Revelation 21:1-4

I s'pose Jesus made a mistake when he said 'I go to prepare a place for you' ie, after his ascension to his Father, who lives where did you say?

 

[Keraz]

I s'pose Jesus made a mistake when he said 'I go to prepare a place for you' ie, after his ascension to his Father, who lives where did you say?

Jesus did not say when that place He is preparing will become available for His faithful people to live in.
We get that information from Revelation 21:1-7, AFTER the Millennium, when the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven.

 

[quietthinker]

Jesus did not say when that place He is preparing will become available for His faithful people to live in.
We get that information from Revelation 21:1-7, AFTER the Millennium, when the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven.

Of course Keraz, fancy footwork is engaged of a necessity to maintain your current position......footwork that doesn't wash.

John 14:1-4
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God ; believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going.”

 

[Keraz]

Of course Keraz, fancy footwork is engaged of a necessity to maintain your current position......footwork that doesn't wash.

John 14:1-4
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God ; believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going.”

Neither the time or the actual destination is mentioned in John 14:1-4.
You and millions of other poor saps fondly assume you will float up to heaven and live in beautiful mansions. Explain please; how are you more worthy than the millions of martyred Christians, to avoid any trials and testing of your faith?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

It says He will descend from heaven, for sure. And we will go up to meet Him, for sure. But other than that, all it says is, we will always be with the Lord. There is no subsequent "where," it doesn't even say that He goes anywhere else, which should say to you that we don't then go somewhere else.

Well if that was the only verse, I would agree with you, but it isn't so your argument is moot.

In... your humble opinion. I mean that's okay with me...

No it is the bible and not my opinion.

There will be no rapture in the sense of any kind of removal.

time will prove you wrong. Teh most wonderful thing is, that even you rapture denying brethren will be caught up off the earth to be with the Lord (John 14). those rooms are not on earth but in heaven.

Also :

Revelation 19:7-9

King James Version

​

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

The marriage takes place in heaven, the marriage supper takes place on earth during the millenial kingdom.

 

[PinSeeker]

Well if that was the only verse, I would agree with you, but it isn't so your argument is moot.

LOL! But that was the very verse you were using, Ronald, to justify your assertion that believers are removed or transported somewhere else! LOL! But now, at least on this one verse, you are implicitly agreeing with me! So my "argument" is surely not moot, even according to you! LOL! Wow...

No it is the bible and not my opinion.

Okay, it's your... interpretation... of the Bible. Sure. You know, if anyone quotes the Bible, they can surely say, "Well that's the Bible..." Yes, it's your opinion concerning what the correct interpretation/understanding of what the Bible says. Goodness gracious.

time will prove you wrong.

Time and truth are on the same side, that's for sure.

...even you rapture denying brethren will be caught up off the earth to be with the Lord (John 14).

We will go out to meet Him in His return, yes. Unless we have already passed, in which case we'll be coming with Him in His wake.

The marriage takes place in heaven, the marriage supper takes place on earth during the millenial kingdom.

Disagree... In the new heaven and new earth, and after the millennial kingdom. Revelation is not from beginning to end in strict chronological order, and more specifically, Not all the events described in Revelation 20 are chronologically subsequent to all of the events described in Revelation 19. Even the whole of Revelation 19 is not in strict chronological order. I ask you again, Ronald (and I've asked you and some others here this same question but have never gotten anything close to a direct answer): Who, Ronald, is your King? Right now. Who is your King?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Keraz]

Teh most wonderful thing is, that even you rapture denying brethren will be caught up off the earth to be with the Lord (John 14). those rooms are not on earth but in heaven.

Well' it is nice of you to include your rapture denying brethren. Most of the other rapture believers tell rejectors of that fable, that we will have to face persecution and death.

Those 'mansions', rooms; mentioned by Jesus, are in heaven now. After the Millennium, the new Jerusalem will come to the renewed earth. Revelation 21:1 and those who endured until the end, having their names Written in the Book of Life; will get to live in it. Revelation 21:27

 

[Ronald Nolette]

LOL! But that was the very verse you were using, Ronald, to justify your assertion that believers are removed or transported somewhere else! LOL! But now, at least on this one verse, you are implicitly agreeing with me! So my "argument" is surely not moot, even according to you! LOL! Wow...

Yes I used that verse. that verse simply tells us we will be caught up into heaven to meet the Lord in the air. Where we go is found in JOhn 14.

We will go out to meet Him in His return, yes. Unless we have already passed, in which case we'll be coming with Him in His wake.

I find it humorous that you have Jesus coming down as told in Rev. 19, then stops to resurrect teh dead Christians , then grab up the living church, then finish His descent.

Disagree... In the new heaven and new earth, and after the millennial kingdom. Revelation is not from beginning to end in strict chronological order, and more specifically, Not all the events described in Revelation 20 are chronologically subsequent to all of the events described in Revelation 19. Even the whole of Revelation 19 is not in strict chronological order. I ask you again, Ronald (and I've asked you and some others here this same question but have never gotten anything close to a direct answer): Who, Ronald, is your King? Right now. Who is your King?

Already told you who my King is. And it iis easy to say that 19 and 20 are not in chronoloigical order so the thousands before you also have and given their own "order of events."

There is no warrant biblically or grammatically to say 19 and 20 are not sequential. I know that if they are as the bible makes them appear to be, folks like you have enormous problems with your hermeneutics and eschatology.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Well' it is nice of you to include your rapture denying brethren. Most of the other rapture believers tell rejectors of that fable, that we will have to face persecution and death.

Those 'mansions', rooms; mentioned by Jesus, are in heaven now. After the Millennium, the new Jerusalem will come to the renewed earth. Revelation 21:1 and those who endured until the end, having their names Written in the Book of Life; will get to live in it. Revelation 21:27

Well it is not me but Jesus'promise.

So you have been to heaven and seen all the rooms already all prepared? did you think to take a photo or two?? As far as we know, Jesus is still preparing them as well as advocating for us before the Father as SCripture says.
If Jesus follows the Jewish wedding system of HIs day and He has been doing for HIm and the Church so far to a "T". Once the house for the bride and groom is ready on the Fathers property, the Father tells the Son to go fetch His bride.

 

[Keraz]

Well it is not me but Jesus'promise.

He Promised that we would live in a new Jerusalem, as described in Revelation 21 to 22.
Any ideas of going to that place before the end of the Millennium, and the conferring of immortality to those worthy, are false and cannot happen.

You and everyone else too, are still unable to see the alternative to the 'rapture'.
It is to be the people that God always wanted in the Holy Land, but has never yet had there. We Christians must fulfil Gods desire; complete His wonderful Plan for mankind, on the beautiful earth He Created for us.
Whisking us off to heaven is tantamount to God admitting failure, no; we have to show our faith and trust in Him, thru all that must take place and then He will reward us mightily.

 

[PinSeeker]

Yes I used that verse. that verse simply tells us we will be caught up into heaven to meet the Lord in the air. Where we go is found in JOhn 14.

Ah. Well, okay, but now you're conflating two different things. Jesus is not talking about the end times in John 14.

I find it humorous that you have Jesus coming down as told in Rev. 19, then stops to resurrect the dead Christians , then grab up the living church, then finish His descent.

That's quite an imagination you have, Ronald. But between you and me, it's only you who seems to think Jesus is going to literally "grab up" anyone, much less the living church. That's... very interesting.

Already told you who my King is.

Jesus. Yes. Now. His millennial reign is now.

And it iis easy to say that 19 and 20 are not in chronoloigical order...

Sure, well, it's easy to say they are, too, but both cannot be right. Revelation 20 begins a new judgment, basically a retelling of the events from a high overview in a different way, and with a slightly different focus than Revelation 19:11-21. You think not, and I think we can both be fine with that; I am.

so the thousands before you also have and given their own "order of events."

And you the same, I guess...

There is no warrant biblically or grammatically to say 19 and 20 are not sequential.

Not true at all. Most relevantly, even just speaking of Revelation itself, what you say would be categorically untrue. Just for starters, the final battle in Revelation 20:7-10 is the same event seen in Revelation 16:14, 16... and Revelation 17:14... and Revelation 19:11-21.

I know that if they are as the bible makes them appear to be, folks like you have enormous problems with your hermeneutics and eschatology.

LOL! Appearances can be... misleading... Not that God's Word misleads anyone, either inadvertently or purposefully; surely it does not.

Grace and peace to you, Ronald.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Ah. Well, okay, but now you're conflating two different things. Jesus is not talking about the end times in John 14.

Well Thessalonians is only an "end time" event now because we live in the end times. but this snatching away could have takne place a week after Pentecost. It merely describes an event that will take place. that is all.

JOhn 14 goes into more detail as to the where the snatched away will go after they are snatched off the earth as thesselonians declares.

That's quite an imagination you have, Ronald. But between you and me, it's only you who seems to think Jesus is going to literally "grab up" anyone, much less the living church. That's... very interesting.

Well belief in the rapture is only held among about 25% of believers. But Thessalonians declares that those living will be caught up (harpazo) to meet the dead who were resurrected from their graves and we both will meet the Lord in the air (aer-atmosphere) so the bible teaches the living will be harpazo (siezed or snatched), I simply take it at face value.

Jesus. Yes. Now. His millennial reign is now.

So this present earth is the millenial reign of Jesus????? Wow your concept of Jesus is one of an impotent king if this sin sick world is Jesus reigning as King of Kings and Lord of Lords!

Sure, well, it's easy to say they are, too, but both cannot be right. Revelation 20 begins a new judgment, basically a retelling of the events from a high overview in a different way, and with a slightly different focus than Revelation 19:11-21. You think not, and I think we can both be fine with that; I am.

So to you REv. 20 is simply retelling a prior event in a different way with different descriptions and differing out comes. Lousy hermeneutics to me.

And you the same, I guess...

At least I use grammar and the knowledge Jesus did not tryt o hide the word from His children. We all think in an order and a simple reading without any bias- one concludes REv. 20 follows REv. 19 in the order of events. It all makes simple sense. You have to have others teach you somoe kind of code to show how these things are not chronological but whatever.

Not true at all. Most relevantly, even just speaking of Revelation itself, what you say would be categorically untrue. Just for starters, the final battle in Revelation 20:7-10 is the same event seen in Revelation 16:14, 16... and Revelation 17:14... and Revelation 19:11-21

That is so patently a lies as to be laughable

You then have to believe that satan and the false prophet and the antichrist are already abyssed because you declare the 1,000 year reign of Jesus is happening now!

REv. 16, 17 and 19 are all speaking of what is termed the battle of Armageddon. Rev. 20 is a diofferent war.

REv. 19 Jesus comes down defeats the antichrist and throws the beast and false prophet into the lake of fire! then after Jesus has defeated the antichrist, an angel binds Satan and throws him in to the abyss where the beast and false prophet are!

The battle in Rev. 20 occurs after Satan is loosed for a season! He is not bound by an angel and the armies are not destroyed by god the Father with a blast form heaven. You should read more carefully.

LOL! Appearances can be... misleading... Not that God's Word misleads anyone, either inadvertently or purposefully; surely it does not.

Of course it doesn't. but those who have taught you this reinterpreted version of Scripture and changed the words as written are the ones deceiving you.