The answer of hell and its origins

[face2face]

I just take Jesus' word for it. I'm not restricted to the Torah

So 1000's of years you admit people were never told about your hell?
Interesting.
What I'm seeing is the notions in people minds isn't matching the Word - I see extreme language for being permanently in the grave....but nothing more.
Can you provide an origin story for Hell or do you think its just made up?

 

[face2face]

Sheol in Genesis is a nasty underground place where naughty souls go, and it's irrelevant whether souls are burning there, or are trapped in a never- ending power cut, or have to suffer nonstop Elton John songs or endless repeats of Eastenders, or even worse locked in forever at a Democrat convention, they're all equally hideous fates..

Explain how a soul burns?
Is it a special type of fire?
Where in the Bible are we shown this fire?

 

[face2face]

As for "eternal torture," the reality of hell, whatever it really looks like, will not be physical or mental torture, as if someone ~ or Someone ~ is actually torturing anyone. But in no way does that make it any more appealing or any less terrifying; it will be a tortuous existence, an internal anguish that will last for eternity ~ day and night forever, as Revelation 20 says.

Grace and peace to all.

I pick up on sayings like this as it shows those who believe dont actually have any information on the subject. This thread really is shinning a bright light on this topic.

Whatever it looks like is like saying "I believe in something I cannot define or explain"....you're not alone - many in this thread are having the same difficulty.

F2F

 

[face2face]

My view so far is it's pointless trying to teach people a doctrine if the soil is not prepared for the seed. Getting people who are willing to try and explain their belief from Scripture is a good place to start because it highlights how hard it is to verify their belief. This of course creates doubt in the person as thy struggle to find text to support what they have been taught.

So far we have no origin story for this fanciful place called hell. We can easily prove its the grave - but more than that we have no evidence in the OT.

When everyone accepts this we can move onto the NT.

F2F

 

[face2face]

@teamventure are you still in this discussion or opting out?

 

[RLT63]

So 1000's of years you admit people were never told about your hell?
Interesting.
What I'm seeing is the notions in people minds isn't matching the Word - I see extreme language for being permanently in the grave....but nothing more.
Can you provide an origin story for Hell or do you think its just made up?

There are different views. A good book is Four Views on Hell. I would post a link but I'm on my phone right now. When it comes to Hell and eternal conscious torment I take a form of Pascal's Wager. I try to live as though it's a reality and if it turns out not to be I have lost nothing. https://www.amazon.com/Four-Views-H...1663808001&sprefix=four+views+,aps,160&sr=8-1

 

[face2face]

All the way to this point I'm in agreement with you. But here you are advocating soul sleep . At death we return to the Father , the flesh will not rise . So let's look at the Old Testament

Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."

The "cistern" is the clay flesh body that our soul lives in. The cistern is built to hold the water or life that is within the flesh body, but once that bowl is broken the water or life leaks out of it, just as water leaks out of this flesh body. The "silver cord" is what holds your soul and the spirit together with the flesh body. We can call it the process of thought, which is the intellect of the mind, or soul. When one is brain dead, there is no electrical impulse within the brain, and mankind is considered dead, even though the physical body may still be pumping blood. Life support systems are generally discontinued in most cases.

When that silver cord parts, and the heavenly Father allows it to happen, and this flesh body becomes biologically dead, the very inner man departs for this physical body, and returns to the Father. This decaying body will never be used again, ever. For the soul has entered into its new incorruptible body.

Ecclesiastes 12:6

Firstly, the verse contains the two symbols of light and water --(remember to always keep your lessons pinned to the Scripture, and what has already been revealed!)

Light = the lampstand (of oil, for light) and bowl or skin (with water).

Oil and water both symbolize life and knowledge -- which are contained in frail vessels:

"We have this treasure in jars of clay," Paul tells us 2 Corinthians 4:7 cmp Jeremiah 19:1 & Lamentations 4:2 See the same idea in Isaiah 38:12.

You actually unwittingly quoted a verse which speaks to the frailty of the flesh and how it holds such precious things as light and water.

Ecclesiates 12 is a beautiful parable of the affects of aging.

When you are young your memory is good but with age comes forgetfulness
From spring to winter the seasons reveal the difficulties of mortality and its terrible affects on a persons drive for life.
The body gradually breaks down.

The teeth and mouth falters (Ecclesiastes 12:3)
appetite diminishes (Ecclesiastes 12:4)
trembling and fear becomes a fact (Ecclesiastes 12:5),
circulation weakens, and soon the whole nervous system collapses (Ecclesiastes 12:6)
Death is a reality (Ecclesiastes 12:7). (Spirit = breath returns)

Finally in keeping with our theme of Hell the end is in the cemetery.

This is why we have the conclusion of the matter which is to 'Fear God, and keep His commandments.'

n2thelight, when you study the Bible make sure you look within its pages to see the symbols, the figurative language is leading you into truth not away form it. It's best to understand the primary lessons for those who were reading it for the first time and stay within its intended meaning.

Hope that helps.
F2F

 

[teamventure]

@teamventure are you still in this discussion or opting out?

I've discovered you're probably a Jehovahs Witness which is not part of born again Christianity, it is a cult.
I discuss the scriptures with people who believe scripture and as far as the faith is concerned you don't seem to be a believer.

 

[n2thelight]

A start though...

Where have you seen the imagery of dust returning to the earth?

The body is dust


Genesis 3:19 "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

This verse paints a bleak picture for mankind, and the destination of the body that our soul is housed in,it is the dust of the earth that it is made of.

 

[n2thelight]

Finally in keeping with our theme of Hell the end is in the cemetery.

This is why we have the conclusion of the matter which is to 'Fear God, and keep His commandments.'

n2thelight, when you study the Bible make sure you look within its pages to see the symbols, the figurative language is leading you into truth not away form it. It's best to understand the primary lessons for those who were reading it for the first time and stay within its intended meaning.

Hope that helps.
F2F

End of flesh is the cemetery , are we who are alive changed at the return of Christ ? Did not Paul tell us we have two bodies ?

 

[face2face]

The body is dust


Genesis 3:19 "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

This verse paints a bleak picture for mankind, and the destination of the body that our soul is housed in,it is the dust of the earth that it is made of.

No immortal soul sorry. Soul is used of a life...i.e. a soul that sins dies etc.

 

[face2face]

End of flesh is the cemetery , are we who are alive changed at the return of Christ ? Did not Paul tell us we have two bodies ?

Show us?

 

[face2face]

I've discovered you're probably a Jehovahs Witness which is not part of born again Christianity, it is a cult.
I discuss the scriptures with people who believe scripture and as far as the faith is concerned you don't seem to be a believer.

This is really weak team.
We are seeking a contribution from those who know their faith and are able to explain/expound it.
If you muster the courage to have a go I'm here waiting.
F2F

 

[n2thelight]

Show us?

You asking questions as a student of the Word you should know , however I will oblige

I Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

There is a natural body, which is your flesh body, and there is also a spiritual or soul body. The two are different and when the natural body, or flesh body dies the spiritual body is "raised", or in the Greek text "egiro, awakened, become active from its death". You have two bodies, one natural body contains your spiritual body, and that spiritual body is awakened to a new life, when the flesh or natural body dies and releases your soul. Your spirit and your soul are together, for the spirit is your "self", "the intellect of your soul" which houses your spirit within you.

Your spirit never leaves your soul, even at the death of your flesh body. Satan does not have any power over your spiritual body, but only your flesh body. Man and Satan can tare this flesh body to peaces and cause you to do all sorts of things, but no-one can damage your soul, not man, not Satan nor the angels. God is the only one that can destroy the soul and that comes at the end of the Millennium age, following judgment. However through deception Satan can cause you to sin against God, and thus be in trouble before the Almighty God. But that is why we have repentance in the name of Jesus to become right-standing before the Father again.

It just can't be made any clearer than Paul has made it here. You have two bodies, the flesh and the spiritual bodies. When the flesh body dies, then the spiritual body is awakened and come alive within itself. It starts to live a life without the baggage of the flesh body confining it to the limits of the flesh.

 

[DavidB]

An examination into what hell is starts with a problem. The Hebrew word sheʼohlʹ occurs 65 times in the Masoretic text. In the King James Version, it is translated 31 times as “hell,” 31 times as “grave,” and 3 times as “pit.”
The KJV also translates the word Gehenna as Hell 10 times, all in the Greek Scriptures (NT) it also is used to translate the word Tartarus in 2Peter 2:4.
This causes a great deal of confusion.

 

[n2thelight]

There are those who hold to the serpent seed doctrine that would say Jesus' admonition there was a reference to those men actually being of that seed.

Would Christians love God if they weren't afraid of Hell?

I'm one that holds the position of the serpent seed , I think being afraid of hell is not the problem not loving God is

 

[Earburner]

All the way to this point I'm in agreement with you. But here you are advocating soul sleep . At death we return to the Father , the flesh will not rise . So let's look at the Old Testament

Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."

The "cistern" is the clay flesh body that our soul lives in. The cistern is built to hold the water or life that is within the flesh body, but once that bowl is broken the water or life leaks out of it, just as water leaks out of this flesh body. The "silver cord" is what holds your soul and the spirit together with the flesh body. We can call it the process of thought, which is the intellect of the mind, or soul. When one is brain dead, there is no electrical impulse within the brain, and mankind is considered dead, even though the physical body may still be pumping blood. Life support systems are generally discontinued in most cases.

When that silver cord parts, and the heavenly Father allows it to happen, and this flesh body becomes biologically dead, the very inner man departs for this physical body, and returns to the Father. This decaying body will never be used again, ever. For the soul has entered into its new incorruptible body.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

Then when? After the silver cord breaks, the mind is brain dead, and the body loses its life. Then shall the body "dust" return to the earth as it was, before it was formed into food, and entered your mouth as food to make your flesh body healthy.

The spirit is the intellect of the soul, that gives the soul its identity. This is not complicated. When the body dies, and goes to the grave, the physical body will never have a use again, for the soul has returned to the Father, to God who created it in the first place. Because this is a promise of God, it should be what all Christians look forward to all the days of their lives. That is the day that we will be with the Father and Jesus Christ is heaven, not at some distant time in the future.

When man gets to the point of not being able to understand this promise that at death the soul goes immediately to be with the Father, then he form his religious man made ideas, and sidesteps what God's Word teaches. Friend, it takes only a short time for the body to decay, and there is no body there to resurrect. The body returns to the dirt that it is made of, and the soul departs from that body never to return to it.

God creates the flesh body for your soul to occupy, and He places your spirit within your soul. That is what gives your soul its identity. Then just as God gave it for a brief time, He will take your soul back to Himself, when the flesh body stops having life.

ecclesiastes12

1Thes.4[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Thes.4[13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Why would the Apostle Paul think that those who have died in faith of Christ are only sleeping?
Ans. John.11[26] And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

 

[n2thelight]

Hell is NOT a place of eternal torment , our God is the consuming fire

Hebrews 12:29 "For our God is a consuming fire."

I can't comprehend how ANY Christian would believe that our Father would torture His kids forever and I really don't give a dang what they did .
Those who don't love God will just simply cease to be

 

[Prim]

I'm one that holds the position of the serpent seed , I think being afraid of hell is not the problem not loving God is

2Thelight you do hold to the position of the serpent seed. You be referring that the serpent did impregnate Mother Eve in the garden?

 

[n2thelight]

1Thes.4[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Thes.4[13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Why would the Apostle Paul think that those who have died in faith of Christ are only sleeping?
Ans. John.11[26] And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Sleep means to be dead , and you really not getting the meaning of the verses you quoted

Why did you skip verse 14 , is Christ sleeping ?

Let's go to the verse you skipped

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].

It was on the fortieth day that he ascended back to the Father. When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, that had passed on, up to that point in time. The souls of some went to wait for that time of judgment, while others to the glory of God. Those that sleep [are dead] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. The dead are with God; all of them. "To be absent from the body [flesh body] is to be present with the Lord." Ecclesiastes 12:7.