The answer of hell and its origins

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RLT63

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So this is about your pride....not whether the truth is actually the truth, and you could avail yourself of it if your wittle feelings were’t hurt. :doldrums: Good grief man, if I broke your arm trying to save your life would you resent the injury or appreciate the fact that you’re still alive?

This is not a struggle for oneupmanship......this is truth verse falsehood.....our very lives are on the line here.....there is only one truth, so we have to choose...not with our pride but with our humility. You sulking and complaining to sympathisers does you no good......it won’t lead you to the truth.....only an honest appraisal of your own beliefs will do that. If you cannot defend what you believe, go and do some solid research and come back with what you have......then we’ll see if what you have researched stand up to scrutiny.....that is how you arrive at solid, concrete conclusions. Our house cannot be built on sand....

C’mon RLT...surely you’re better than that...?
I’m actually a little annoyed by your characterization of things but others can read and judge for themselves. You’ve given them plenty of material.
 

Aunty Jane

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I’m actually a little annoyed by your characterization of things but others can read and judge for themselves. You’ve given them plenty of material.
Of course you are annoyed....but you don’t seem to see your own responses as simply hurt pride.....this is not about “I’m right and you’re wrong”....it’s about the truth .....isn’t that all that matters?

RLT63 said:
Something else to consider: While JW's won't care about what early Christians believed or said, as they believe the Church fell into apostasy. It seems worth noting, at least for your own benefit, that if this were the case, that ho theos always refers to "Jehovah", and theos is just "a god", then why did this never occur to all the Greek speaking Christians throughout history?
The foretold apostasy took place just as Jesus and the apostles said it would, and it was beginning even at the end of the first century. Nothing written after the first century ever made it into the Bible canon for a very good reason....the weeds were already sprouting.

There is no need to identify Jehovah as “ho theos” in every scripture unless there is someone else who can be also identified as “theos”. The scripture I quoted from John 10:31-36 proves that a differentiation was indeed made when it was necessary to single out Jehovah from the other “god-like” one in the passage. If Jehovah’s name had still been in use, we would not be having this conversation, because there would be no ambiguous verses to suggest anything else.
John 1:1 would have read....”In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Jehovah, and the Word was divine”.
V 14...”and the Word became flesh and resided among us and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth.”
So the Word became flesh and his glory came from the Father of this “only begotten son”.
For us English-speakers Koine Greek is an ancient, distant, and foreign language. But for hundreds of years in antiquity it was the language tens, even hundreds of thousands of Christians spoke every day, that's why the New Testament is written in it--it was the common language of the entire ancient Mediterranean world. This was the language Christians spoke around the dinner table, it's the language they spoke at church. For thousands and even millions of Christians throughout history the New Testament was written in their native tongue, they didn't need a translation, they spoke the same language which God's word was written
Exactly...so why do you complain when I refer to that original language? It’s not like it was lost....
 

RLT63

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Of course you are annoyed....but you don’t seem to see your own responses as simply hurt pride.....this is not about “I’m right and you’re wrong”....it’s about the truth .....isn’t that all that matters?


The foretold apostasy took place just as Jesus and the apostles said it would, and it was beginning even at the end of the first century. Nothing written after the first century ever made it into the Bible canon for a very good reason....the weeds were already sprouting.

There is no need to identify Jehovah as “ho theos” in every scripture unless there is someone else who can be also identified as “theos”. The scripture I quoted from John 10:31-36 proves that a differentiation was indeed made when it was necessary to single out Jehovah from the other “god-like” one in the passage. If Jehovah’s name had still been in use, we would not be having this conversation, because there would be no ambiguous verses to suggest anything else.
John 1:1 would have read....”In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Jehovah, and the Word was divine”.
V 14...”and the Word became flesh and resided among us and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth.”
So the Word became flesh and his glory came from the Father of this “only begotten son”.

Exactly...so why do you complain when I refer to that original language? It’s not like it was lost....
I’m really just wondering which of my beliefs I can’t defend. Most of the discussions have been about your beliefs. Do you read and speak Greek or have you just answered the same issues so often you pretty much have it memorized?
 
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Aunty Jane

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I’m really just wondering which of my beliefs I can’t defend. Most of the discussions have been about your beliefs. Do you read and speak Greek or have you just answered the same issues so often you pretty much have it memorized?
When responding to my beliefs, I assumed that your beliefs would be offered by way of rebuttal...were they?
If not...why not?
 

The Learner

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I apologize for calling the watchtower garbage. It is just full of false doctrines of people who were/are igorant of Biblical Languages, Culture, Church History.
 

The Learner

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Friendly Challenge for our JW frends. List your major doctrines, Don't bother with minor ones like Estacalllogy, Day of Worship, Soul Sleep, and so on. Then search the Church Fathers and other primary sources at newadvent.org -- provide the exact link to those quotes. JW sites and others like it are verbolten.

"Verbolten" is a play on words of the German word "verboten," which translates to "forbidden" in English.

I will only read and check context of primary sources. I don't want to here the nonsense that those are Catholic Sources because they are in fact historical documents.

God Bless Everyone and to Everyond a good night,
Daniel
 
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RLT63

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When responding to my beliefs, I assumed that your beliefs would be offered by way of rebuttal...were they?
If not...why not?
Were they? So you didn’t read my responses. That’s okay I skimmed through some of your long ones
 

The Learner

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Matthew 9:2
Some people brought to him a man who was paralyzed and was lying on a mat. Jesus saw that these people had much faith. So he said to the paralyzed man, “Young man, you will be glad to hear this. Your sins are forgiven.”

Matthew 9:5-6
The Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins. But how can I prove this to you? Maybe you are thinking it was easy for me to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven.’ There’s no proof that it really happened. But what if I say to the man, ‘Stand up and walk’? Then you will be able to see that I really have this power.” So Jesus said to the paralyzed man, “Stand up. Take your mat and go home.”

Mark 1:4
So John the Baptizer came and was baptizing people in the desert area. He told them to be baptized to show that they wanted to change their lives, and then their sins would be forgiven.

Mark 2:5
When Jesus saw how much faith they had, he said to the paralyzed man, “Young man, your sins are forgiven.”

Mark 2:9-10
The Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins. But how can I prove this to you? Maybe you are thinking it was easy for me to say to the crippled man, ‘Your sins are forgiven.’ There’s no proof it really happened. But what if I say to the man, ‘Stand up. Take your mat and walk’? Then you will be able to see if I really have this power or not.” So Jesus said to the paralyzed man,

Luke 3:3
So he went through the whole area around the Jordan River and told the people God’s message. He told them to be baptized to show that they wanted to change their lives, and then their sins would be forgiven.

Luke 5:20
Jesus saw how much faith they had and said to the sick man, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.”

Luke 5:23-24
The Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins. But how can I prove this to you? Maybe you are thinking it was easy for me to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven.’ There’s no proof that it really happened. But what if I say to the man, ‘Stand up and walk’? Then you will be able to see that I really have this power.” So Jesus said to the paralyzed man, “I tell you, stand up! Take your mat and go home!”

Luke 7:47
I tell you that her many sins are forgiven. This is clear, because she showed great love. People who are forgiven only a little will love only a little.”

Luke 7:48
Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”

John 20:23
If you forgive the sins of anyone, their sins are forgiven. If there is anyone whose sins you don’t forgive, their sins are not forgiven.”

Acts 13:38-39
Brothers, understand what we are telling you. You can have forgiveness of your sins through this Jesus. The Law of Moses could not free you from your sins. But you can be made right with God if you believe in Jesus.

Romans 4:7
“It is a great blessing when people are forgiven for the wrongs they have done, when their sins are erased!


Mark 2
King James Version
2 And again he entered into Capernaum after some days; and it was noised that he was in the house.

2 And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them.

3 And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four.

4 And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.

5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

6 But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,

7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?

9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?

10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)

11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.

12 And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.

13 And he went forth again by the sea side; and all the multitude resorted unto him, and he taught them.
 

Aunty Jane

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She says she does her own research but comes to the exact same conclusions as other JWs,
Its called unity and it is the identifier of the true faith....."one Lord, one faith, one baptism"...one truth dispensed by one body.....the body of Christ.....all fed from the same table by the same servants. (Matthew 24:45) Can you be part of the body if it is dismembered?

1 Cor 1:10...
"I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought." (NIV)

I didn't write that.....Paul did. We are to have no 'disagreements' or "division", and to be "perfectly united in mind and thought"....in what stretch of the imagination does that describe the disgusting fragmentation of Christendom's church system?.....who all think that they are of the elect and going to heaven, even though they can't agree about much at all here on earth.....except the things that Christ never taught.

The blindness never ceases to amaze me....:IDK:
 

Jack

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Its called unity and it is the identifier of the true faith....."one Lord, one faith, one baptism"...one truth dispensed by one body.....the body of Christ.....all fed from the same table by the same servants. (Matthew 24:45) Can you be part of the body if it is dismembered?

1 Cor 1:10...
"I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought." (NIV)

I didn't write that.....Paul did. We are to have no 'disagreements' or "division", and to be "perfectly united in mind and thought"....in what stretch of the imagination does that describe the disgusting fragmentation of Christendom's church system?.....who all think that they are of the elect and going to heaven, even though they can't agree about much at all here on earth.....except the things that Christ never taught.

The blindness never ceases to amaze me....:IDK:
Are you JW?
 
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RLT63

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Its called unity and it is the identifier of the true faith....."one Lord, one faith, one baptism"...one truth dispensed by one body.....the body of Christ.....all fed from the same table by the same servants. (Matthew 24:45) Can you be part of the body if it is dismembered?

1 Cor 1:10...
"I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought." (NIV)

I didn't write that.....Paul did. We are to have no 'disagreements' or "division", and to be "perfectly united in mind and thought"....in what stretch of the imagination does that describe the disgusting fragmentation of Christendom's church system?.....who all think that they are of the elect and going to heaven, even though they can't agree about much at all here on earth.....except the things that Christ never taught.

The blindness never ceases to amaze me....:IDK:
Denominations disagree about some things. JW is a denomination and they are not the Corinthian Church
 
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Aunty Jane

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Denominations disagree about some things.
Are you serious? Why are there literally thousands of separate denominations all with different ideas, if there is agreement?
The only things they agree on are the very core of beliefs that they hold in common...none of which originated in God’s word. Why do you think “few” will be saved when the judgment comes? (Matt 7:13-14)
JW is a denomination and they are not the Corinthian Church
JW’s are NOT a denomination of Christendom.....we identified their doctrines as originating in pagan religions, so we removed ourselves from “Babylon the great”, which we believe encompasses all manifestations of false worship....the devil authored all of them, (he doesn’t care how he gets ya....as long as he gets ya) so in obedience to Revelation 18:4-5 we withdrew from the disunited (but accepted by the masses) “church” system, just as the first Christians had to withdraw from apostate Judaism into which Jesus the man was born....but he exposed them for what they were. (Matt 15:7-9)

Types and shadows are there if you know what you’re looking at....but there is also a “blindness” that Paul speaks of. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) Not a blindness of the eyes, but of the mind.
 
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RLT63

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Are you serious? Why are there literally thousands of separate denominations all with different ideas, if there is agreement?
The only things they agree on are the very core of beliefs that they hold n common...none of which originated in God’s word. Why do you think “few” will be saved when the judgment comes? (Matt 7:13-14)

JW’s are NOT a denomination of Christendom.....we identified their doctrines as originating in pagan religions, so we removed ourselves from “Babylon the great”, which we believe encompasses all manifestations of false worship....the devil authored all of them, (he doesn’t care how he gets ya....as long as he gets ya) so in obedience to Revelation 18:4-5 we withdrew from the disunited (but accepted by the masses) “church” system, just as the first Christians had to withdraw from apostate Judaism into which Jesus the man was born....but he exposed them for what they were. (Matt 15:7-9)

Types and shadows are there if you know what you’re looking at....but there is also a “blindness” that Paul speaks of. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) Not a blindness of the eyes, but of the mind.
Denominations are in agreement in their own organizations. Of course they don’t agree with everything in another denomination
 
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The Learner

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Denominations disagree about some things. JW is a denomination and they are not the Corinthian Church


The Son of Man is the one who can forgive sins, which only God can do (Matthew 9:2-7, Mark 2:4-10, Luke 5:20-25).
The Son of Man is the bridegroom of the New Covenant with God’s people (Matthew 9:15-17, Mark 2:19-22, Luke 5:34-39).
The Son of Man is the Lord of the Sabbath (Matthew 12:8, Mark 2:28, Luke 6:5).

The Apostle Paul’s writings are filled with references to Jesus’ deity. Paul, for example, directly calls Jesus God when writing to Titus:

“looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,” (Titus 2:13).

Jesus Christ is our great God and savior. Paul also says so in His letter to the Romans:

“whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen,” (Romans 9:5).

While the NASB’s translation here makes it a little less obvious what Paul is saying, other translations render this particular verse much clearer:

“To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen,” (ESV).
“Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen,” (NIV).
“of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen,” (NKJV).
 

The Learner

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