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"The Antichrist" teaching is a myth

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by truthsearcher, Apr 27, 2007.

  1. truthsearcher

    truthsearcher New Member

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    The fact that the term "Antichrist" was never given in reference to the "man of sin" in scriptures, should be a red flag to anyone desiring to know the truth about the end-time beast. But, the Antichrist myth has been handed down for so many years now, people don't even question whether it's truth or not. They simply accept it as fact without even once opening the scriptures to examine the facts on their own."He is "a man", Rev.13:18 says of the beast, "and his number is six hundred, threescore, and six". But before that description of the beast is given, the scripture says, "Here is "wisdom"...let him that hath "understanding"...." Thus, in order to have wisdom and understanding, we must study the scriptures. When we study Daniel and Revelation, we discover that the beast; or, man of sin, whom Daniel refered to as that "abomination that maketh desolate", and whom Paul in 11Thes.2 refered to as "that Wicked", is not an individual man at all, but rather a nationality of man....a nationality of man which was represented by "the ten horns" in both Daniel and John's visions.Daniel in fact refers to them as "the people of the prince", in 9:26, meaning of course, "the people of the devil". Ezekiel says that "Gog" (the devil) is their "chief prince". And, in his writtings, Daniel called that devil, "the prince of persia", and "the prince of the kingdom of persia". Both John and Daniel describes that ten horns; or, the people of the devil in relation to the European people.Notice Dan.7:2323 "Then he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom (European kingdom) upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in poeces."24 "And the ten horns out of this kingdom are "ten kings" (the Europeans) that shall arise: and "another" (another ten horns) shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue "three kings" (shall bring under submission "three European nations").Verses 25 and 26 goes on to say that the ten horns; or, people of the devil causes the Europeans to change the laws to their favor, and that in the end, they will take over their dominion, and will consume and destroy their nations until the end.This bit of information alone should prove that the Antichrist teaching is a myth; a fable. But will today's Christians believe it? According to 11Thes.2 they will not, for verses 10 and 11 says, "because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved". "And "for this cause" God shall send them "strong delusion", that they should "believe a lie"."
     
  2. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    You seem to have some of the correct ingretients to the story but you are missing key ingredients and not putting the reciepe together correctly.The antichrist is the little horn, in Rev the amoination of desolation is Satan himself standing in the holy place claiming to be God.The kingdom is a one world system.
     
  3. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    What do thou mean that the "the AntiChrist teaching is a myth? Do thou mean that he twist the LORD's Words? If so, then Yea, There is no truth in him. (John 8:44), We can lie. (Psalms 116:6) The Lord can't... (Romans 3:4)...since He can't sin at all. (I John 3:5), (Hebrews 4:15), (II Corinthians 5:21) Yes the Devil can try to deceive us...Try reading Matthew 4:1-11 and Luke 4:1-13 to see what I mean. Lovest thou in Christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour...P.S. The One World System, is getting near...True Christians will stay away from it...And if thou mean that the AntiChrist is fake...then look around...There are so many false teachings around the world... Like people says "There is no God." (Psalms 14:1 and Psalms 53:1...)
     
  4. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    You're on the right path, but be very careful. There are two beats in Revelation and Daniel. There is the best with 7 heads and 10 horns and then there is a second beast: Revelation 13:1And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. Revelation 13:11And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. The second beast is the little horn of Daniel. This is indeed a person. Granted, you'll find agreement that this is not (and I emphasize that) the traditional antichrist myth of the man who has 666 tatooed on his forehead, but we cannot overlook that there are two. He has two horns like a lamb, and that is a very important phrase as to what he'll look like. That being said, Revelation 13:8 falls into place because it is indeed a man. This verse cannot be taken and applied to the first beast because there are two of them. The one world system of "perfect" government shows first, but the fake comes right after him. It is the number of a man, afterall. The thing is, this is all going to be very obvious to the ones that know the Word when it does occur.
     
  5. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    The son of perdition Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down it. (Job 1:6-7) And so it was with Satan to roam the earth, till Christ was led to the wilderness to be tempted by Satan in the book of Matthew chapter 4. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. (Matthew 4:10) This is when Satan left and was bound in heaven till this day, and will remain till his return as Anti-Christ. But, his spirit still roams the earth at the present time. So what are some of the titles of Satan, and what is the fate of his future? We can start back in the Old Testament book of Ezekiel, when the Lord came to him and said: Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God. (Ezekiel 28:2) This prince of Tyrus is a type to describe Satan. The Lord would go on to explain: Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas. (Ezekiel 28:6-8) Satan has his sentence already, and his sentence is death. Satan is the only one sentenced to death at this time because of his disobedience to God in the first earth age, when he drew one third of the angels with him causing God to destroy that first dispensation or the first earth age. Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (II Peter 3:5-6) Reference: (Three Earth Ages) While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. (John 17:12) We all have a chance, even the fallen angels, but Satan is lost, for he is the son of perdition. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (II Thessalonians 2:3-4) There is a great falling away from the church at this time, as people still search for the truth instead of tradition. An soon Satan will appear as anti-Christ for a short time when Michael and his angels boots him out of heaven and down to earth. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast with him. (Revelation 12:7-9) Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and of the sea! For the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. (Revelation 12:12) When Satan and his band of angels arrive in person, their time is short and their wrath will be great to those without the seal of God. That great old serpent the dragon, called Satan the son of perdition deceiver of the world whose spirit roams from city to city and country to country will have his short time again down on earth. Then his total destruction will follow. He was alive but isn't now. And yet, soon he will come up out of the bottomless pit and go to eternal destruction; and the people of earth, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life before the world began, will be dumbfounded at his reappearance after being dead. (Revelation 17:8) This is after Satan has been bound in chains for 1,000 years in the bottomless pit, the millennium period, then he is released for a short time. (Reference: Revelation 20:1-6) When the thousand years end, Satan will be let out of his prison. (Revelation 20:7) He will make war with God's people and will deceive even more, but God will intervene and Satan will not prevail. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10) So what ever name you may know him by: Satan, Lucifer, The Serpent, The Dragon or the Devil. He is all the same and is the Son of Perdition, the only one to perish or sentenced to death at this time. So, do not fear Satan but revere the Lord. Christ would best explain in the book of Matthew: Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28)http://www.goodnewsministry.com/topics.htm
     
  6. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Satan has been a man before will be again it is the whole story outline of the bible from day one He has always wanted to be God it is why he tempted Eveit is why he tried to destroy the line of David. He literly gets kicked out of heaven in the sixth trump He will come here with his group of fallen angels claiming to be Christ. He is a super natural being so he can cause great delusion. He is not the pope or any other human man this is true. But he will be a man he is the little horn of Rev.
     
  7. Bob0matiC

    Bob0matiC New Member

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    The fact that the term "Antichrist" was never given in reference to the "man of sin" in scriptures,
    1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come,_________________________________________________________________2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
     
  8. Daniyel

    Daniyel New Member

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    Bousset in his classic work "The Antichrist Legend" furnishes a comprehensive delineation of the Antchrist, tracing the development of his personage from what he shows to be the existing Jewish conception through to the Christian expectation. What can be definitely concluded from his treatment of the subject is that - while a collective movement of peoples is connected with the appearance of the Antichrist - the coming Antichrist was understood to be a single personality. There is no notion of more than one anti-Christian potentate filling the role.What is found, however, in early Christian literature are the two manifestations of Antichrist. In these early writings he appears as both false prophet and tyrannical ruler (e.g. Sibylline Oracles). And it is with these manifestations of Antichrist that John's distinctive theological interpretation of Antichrist's person and career is concerned. These ideas are expressed within the complex imagery of Revelation through symbolic themes that are developed by means of literary cross-references.When John in Rev. 17:18 describes the beast that will ascend out of the bottomless pit he is making a cross-reference to the demonic forces first referred to in Rev. 9. It is not the beast as the person of the Antichrist he is there portraying. He is giving a critique of the source of the false prophet/Antichrist's thaumaturgic power with which he will deceive the nations and muster them to war (Rev. 16:12-16, 19:19-21). And it is as a spirit of falsehood or Anti-spirit set up and advanced against the spirit of prophecy that the first beast appears in Rev 11.The beast that ascends from the bottomless pit is said to be the eigth or final ruler of the beast system because the demonic forces he represents will possess and animate the false prophet/Antichrist (Rev.17:11). The term "false prophet" can be seen to be the counterpart to the phrase "the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy," (Rev. 19:10) a phrase that describes the work of the Holy Spirit on behalf of Messiah, with respect to Messiah's work and office. Smeaton, commenting on the promise in Is. 51:2 concerning the unction with which Messiah was to be anointed writes; "the general designation, "the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him," with which the promise commences, is the common name for the SPIRIT OF PROPHECY, as appears from the seventy elders, who received the spirit that was on Moses, and also from other instances." (Holy Spirit, Banner of Truth, p.38).
     
  9. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    So do you just skip over the son of Perdition, the false prophet, and all of the other parts that describe a man? What about the abomination of desolation? The Greek and Hebrew are both very specific about a singular desalator.
     
  10. Daniyel

    Daniyel New Member

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    Denver: If your question is addressed to me, then I think I have been misunderstood. My point was; that although through all deceivableness and unrighteousness many peoples will be brought under the influence of a working delusion connected with the career of the Antichrist, the Antichrist is indeed a single individual being, a person yet to appear. One whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming.Shalom.
     
  11. RND

    RND New Member

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    (Denver;9775)
    Revelation 13:11And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. The second beast is the little horn of Daniel. This is indeed a person. Granted, you'll find agreement that this is not (and I emphasize that) the traditional antichrist myth of the man who has 666 tatooed on his forehead, but we cannot overlook that there are two. He has two horns like a lamb, and that is a very important phrase as to what he'll look like.
    I would respectfully have to disagree with your assessment. Revelation 13 does indeed speak of two beasts. Beasts in prophecy are always "political" powers/kingdoms. See Daniel 7 and 8.The first beast has characteristics that are attached to it that makes identification fairly clear when compared with other scripture. In verse 2 t is an amalgamation of the temporal political governmental powers in Daniel 7.In verse one of Revaltion 13 John is standing on the shore and sees the first beast rising out of the sea. The sea represents a multitude of people. See Isaiah 17:12, 1 Kings 4:20, Revelation 17:5. This beast also has the name of blasphemy written on it's forehead. Blasphemy is speaking like God or claiming to be like God. Jesus Himself was accused of blasphemy. Matthew 26:65, Mark 14:64, John 10:33. In verses 5 and 6 we can clearly, through history, see who this beast power is: "To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical." The Gloss of Extravagantes of Pope John XXII, Cum. Inter, title 14, chapter 4, "Ad Callem Sexti Decretalium", Column 140, Paris, 1685. (In an Antwerp edition of the Extravagantes, the words, "Dominum Deum Nostrum Papam" (“Our Lord God the Pope”) can be found in column 153). "The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth...by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth." Quoted in the New York Catechism."The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth." Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "Cities Petrus Bertanous".See the 3 w's lightministries.com/id524.htm for the link to:Amazing Statements Regarding the Roman Catholic ChurchSee the 3 w's lightministries.com/id523.htm for the link to:Amazing Catholic Statements Regarding the PopeNow things are coming together quite clearly as to who and what the first beast power is. But the second beast rises not out of the sea and a multitude of people, but rises rather out of the earth, signifying that this beast receives it's power quietly and over time. This beast has two horns (which represent temporal political power) like a lamb, i.e. "The power of God." Yet this power speaks like a dragon (Satan). What do those two horns represent? What one nation on Earth that rests it's sole reason for power, control and it's very existance on two horns of power? Could those two horns be the "Declaration of Independence (repleat with all it's pantheistic language) and the united States Constitution? No other nation on Earth uses or has two such pilars of power to justify it's existence...not one. In verse 13 we are told this beast can even make "fire" come down from Heaven. Name the only nation in the world's history that has done this very thing-make fire come down from Heaven:See: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_NagasakiAtomic bombings of Hiroshima and NagasakiIt is now easy to see how the other verses of Revelation 13 begin to come into focus and how they paint an extrodinarily clear picture of the history of the temporal/political united States. The very laws, government, and architecture of this nations seat of power and throughout the country are mirror images of Rome. See verses 14 and 15.Sorry to disagree with you Denver, right out of the gate and all, but the picture of Revelation 13 is crystal clear when we are using scripture to interpret scripture.
     
  12. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Certain power structures in history are nothing but types. For example, I'd have to say the Hiroshima and Nagasaki mention is nothing more than pulling examples out of the air. The same could just as easily be said for Germany and Great Britain with the fire bombings that were used during WWII. Reading nuclear into this is shaky because it's just as easy to read fire bombing and go another way. Scripture doesn't suggest this anywhere and molding two events of WWII to fit just doesn't hold weight.The little horn is a man, not a nation or position: Revelation 13:18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.Revelation 13:12And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.America holds a lot of power, but it doesn't decree worship of Roman beliefs and practices by any stretch of the imagination.It is "he" not "them" that makes fire come down from heaven:Revelation 13:13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,Even Daniel 7, as you pointed out in your post, says a man:Daniel 7:8I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.Daniel 7:11I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.America has no body. All the popes have no body. This is one man. This is the wannabe lamb that speaks as a dragon. The moment he opens his mouth, a man of God will know him for what he is.To use a famous saying...If you think this is it, you ain't seen nothin' yet!
     
  13. RND

    RND New Member

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    (Denver;11152)
    Certain power structures in history are nothing but types. For example, I'd have to say the Hiroshima and Nagasaki mention is nothing more than pulling examples out of the air.The same could just as easily be said for Germany and Great Britain with the fire bombings that were used during WWII. Reading nuclear into this is shaky because it's just as easy to read fire bombing and go another way.
    I think when taken in proper context the second beast matching the characteristics of the united States through the three distinct references (historic value, type of government value, and actions value) far outweight the notion that other 'nations' can fit the image of the second beast quite like the united States has done historically.Let use the two nations you selected for the sake of argument. Neither government was 'established' on the basis of two horns of power. Both are fundementally 'parlimentary' kingdoms. Neither country was established by declaring it's position quite like the united States had.
    Scripture doesn't suggest this anywhere and molding two events of WWII to fit just doesn't hold weight.
    Nowhere in scripture does it mention that ice cream and root beer in combination make a tasty root beer float either yet they exist. Just because something doesn't 'hold weight' with you doesn't necessarily mean that it is incorrect.
    The little horn is a man, not a nation or position: Revelation 13:18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.Revelation 13:12And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.America holds a lot of power, but it doesn't decree worship of Roman beliefs and practices by any stretch of the imagination.It is "he" not "them" that makes fire come down from heaven:Revelation 13:13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,Even Daniel 7, as you pointed out in your post, says a man:Daniel 7:8I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.Daniel 7:11I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.America has no body. All the popes have no body. This is one man. This is the wannabe lamb that speaks as a dragon. The moment he opens his mouth, a man of God will know him for what he is.To use a famous saying...If you think this is it, you ain't seen nothin' yet!
    You have done well to mention the 'first' beast of Revelation 13, which came to power after the the fall of the Roman Empire (Daniel 7:24-25/Political-Religious Rome) but it is obvious that there is a second beast and again a 'beast' as seen in prophecy is ALWAYS a temporal political power. Horns in prophecy also represent temporal political power.
     
  14. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Horns in prophecy also represent temporal political power.
    With a statement like that, I think you're probably quite unaware (I say this respectfully) with what a horn is, so I'll provide the Scriptural documentation to clear up this false notion: Jesus was prophesyed as a horn: Psalm 89:24-28But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted. I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers. He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. Then we have: Psalm 92:9-15For, lo, thine enemies, O LORD, for, lo, thine enemies shall perish; all the workers of iniquity shall be scattered. But my horn shalt thou exalt like the horn of an unicorn: I shall be anointed with fresh oil. Mine eye also shall see my desire on mine enemies, and mine ears shall hear my desire of the wicked that rise up against me. The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree: he shall grow like a cedar in Lebanon. Those that be planted in the house of the LORD shall flourish in the courts of our God. They shall still bring forth fruit in old age; they shall be fat and flourishing; To show that the LORD is upright: he is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in him. Psalm 112:9He hath dispersed, he hath given to the poor; his righteousness endureth for ever; his horn shall be exalted with honour. Psalm 132:6-8I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout aloud for joy.There will I make the horn of David to bud: I have ordained a lamp for mine anointed. His enemies will I clothe with shame: but upon himself shall his crown flourish. Finally, I let Scripture speak, I saved the best for last: Luke 1:69-70And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: Satan is appointed a time and place. Revelation and Daniel both document this but you can look back to Job to see this is how it was and will always be. In every case, this horn is a man and when the Scriptures of Daniel and Revelation say man, it's a man.
    I think when taken in proper context the second beast matching the characteristics of the united States through the three distinct references (historic value, type of government value, and actions value) far outweight the notion that other 'nations' can fit the image of the second beast quite like the united States has done historically.
    The first beast is not a nation, I've never said it was a nation. It's a one world system, something this world has never seen and Rome, like all the others, will pale in comparison. Rome controlled their known world, but they never controlled the world. Revelation 17:18The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. (Sidebar) John 17:12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. II Thesslonians 2:3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; I'll not bore you with the definition of perdition, as I am sure you know what that means. As it stands, there is only one condemned at the moment and that is documented in Ezekiel 28. It is but one man, the little horn of Daniel and the false Lamb of Revelation 13 that spake as a dragon. Back to Revelation 17. Revelation 17:9And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
     
  15. RND

    RND New Member

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    (Denver;11160)
    With a statement like that, I think you're probably quite unaware (I say this respectfully) with what a horn is, so I'll provide the Scriptural documentation to clear up this false notion:
    Actually I'm quite familiar with the usage of the word "qeren" and that it's "figurative" usage always revolves around power. See Strong's #7161. The word is use in many different ways, either by implication, resemblance or figuratively. Yet perhaps I could have been clearer in my insistance that whenever the word is used in a figurative manner in prophecy it is always referring to temporal political power.While I certainly appreciate the examples provided of it's usage in other verses, it is important to note that the usage of the word in these verses symbolically represent something completely different than "end times prophecy." I think it would be intellectual dishonesty to suggest something different.
    Jesus was prophesyed as a horn:
    In reality horn here symbolizes strength.
    Finally, I let Scripture speak, I saved the best for last: Luke 1:69-70And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
    The word used here is the same word used for horn throughout the NT. Strongs #2768 - keras and it means "a horn" either figuratively or literally. So obviously taking the word in context with how it is used one can assume that it's usage in Luke is figurative. It is interesting to note this word is only used once in the Gospels, in this above referenced verse, and in several verses in Revelation.
    Satan is appointed a time and place. Revelation and Daniel both document this but you can look back to Job to see this is how it was and will always be. In every case, this horn is a man and when the Scriptures of Daniel and Revelation say man, it's a man.
    Or could it be that the wording "a man" suggests the qualities of human interaction and intervention? Is that possible? Or is it possible that just like 99% of the Book of Revelation "a man" is used in symbolic context?
    The first beast is not a nation, I've never said it was a nation. It's a one world system, something this world has never seen and Rome, like all the others, will pale in comparison. Rome controlled their known world, but they never controlled the world.
    To suggest that religious Rome has never controlled the world is to disregard the large balance of political/religious history in the world. And all the world wondered after the beast.
    I'll not bore you with the definition of perdition, as I am sure you know what that means. As it stands, there is only one condemned at the moment and that is documented in Ezekiel 28. It is but one man, the little horn of Daniel and the false Lamb of Revelation 13 that spake as a dragon.
    Then who or what might be your interpretation of the first beast mentioned in Revelation 13?
     
  16. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    The word used here is the same word used for horn throughout the NT. Strongs #2768 - keras and it means "a horn" either figuratively or literally. So obviously taking the word in context with how it is used one can assume that it's usage in Luke is figurative. It is interesting to note this word is only used once in the Gospels, in this above referenced verse, and in several verses in Revelation.
    What you said above proves my point exactly. Thanks, whether you realize it or not right now. Some of the provided references in Psalms were prophecy and it was used of Christ. Temporal would be about the last word I'd ever use to describe Christ. The horn represents power and clearly from its usage it has nothing to do with timespan since it was used of Christ and the antichrist.
    Or could it be that the wording "a man" suggests the qualities of human interaction and intervention? Is that possible? Or is it possible that just like 99% of the Book of Revelation "a man" is used in symbolic context?
    Satan is mentioned as a man in other places and Ezekiel 28 is an example. In fact, it's the example where he is condemned. Angels are referred to as men (of which Satan was one). Gabriel's name even means "man of God." Jesus became a man in the flesh. Revelation 19:12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. Revelation 21:17And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. From there, I know you'll bring up the ***** and the woman. Both of which are explained right there in Revelation: Revelation 17:18And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. That's the *****. Revelation 12:5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. That's the woman aka Israel.
    To suggest that religious Rome has never controlled the world is to disregard the large balance of political/religious history in the world.
    Not really. I'm sure you're familiar with geography and the far east? China, Japan, Korea, etc. I know a tin horn when I see one and this tin horn is not the horn, it's nowhere near the power given in Revelation. I'm very familiar with history and I will go toe to toe with anyone on it since it happens to be a passion of mine.
    Then who or what might be your interpretation of the first beast mentioned in Revelation 13?
    See the last part of my previous post. The Bible tells us exactly what the first beast is. Mountains are nations, heads and horns are kings. Seven kings of seven nations. Now which 10 popes/kings out of the hundreds would you like to select to fit these? Would it be Hitler & Mussolini or just Hitler make the cut? Bush 41 and 43? Clinton? Regean? Carter? Johnson? Kennedy? John Paul? Benedict? Pius? Man, we're running out of hills fast! I'm a student of history and could pull names out of the hat as well. However, that's not something I'm going to do because that doesn't come from Scripture.
    ...historic value, type of government value, and actions value...
    Could you be any more vague?
     
  17. RND

    RND New Member

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    What you said above proves my point exactly. Thanks, whether you realize it or not right now. Some of the provided references in Psalms were prophecy and it was used of Christ. Temporal would be about the last word I'd ever use to describe Christ. The horn represents power and clearly from its usage it has nothing to do with timespan since it was used of Christ and the antichrist.
    Perhaps you missed this from me:(RND)
    Yet perhaps I could have been clearer in my insistance that whenever the word is used in a figurative manner in prophecy it is always referring to temporal political power.
    Satan is mentioned as a man in other places and Ezekiel 28 is an example. In fact, it's the example where he is condemned. Angels are referred to as men (of which Satan was one). Gabriel's name even means "man of God." Jesus became a man in the flesh.
    Revelation 19:12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    This refers to Jesus, not Satan.
    Revelation 17:18And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. That's the *****.
    Yes, this is indeed symbolic of the false religious/political system of Pagan Rome.
    Revelation 12:5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. That's the woman aka Israel.
    Except that Israel is never refered to as a "woman" in scripture. Israel always deals with male/sons. The "woman" in this case is the "bride" of Christ, He being the bridegroom.The "woman" in this case did indeed push the Son of God front and center onto the world stage.
    Not really. I'm sure you're familiar with geography and the far east? China, Japan, Korea, etc. I know a tin horn when I see one and this tin horn is not the horn, it's nowhere near the power given in Revelation. I'm very familiar with history and I will go toe to toe with anyone on it since it happens to be a passion of mine.
    That's wonderful Denver but the fact remains that around the world every dictator, every head of state, every political figure world wide owes their existence of power and control to the Roman church. That was the purpose of the link I provided. It clearly shows non-catholics/non-Romanists bowing down and paying homage to the temporal power in which they owed their alligience.
    See the last part of my previous post. The Bible tells us exactly what the first beast is. Mountains are nations, heads and horns are kings. Seven kings of seven nations. Now which 10 popes/kings out of the hundreds would you like to select to fit these? Would it be Hitler & Mussolini or just Hitler make the cut? Bush 41 and 43? Clinton? Regean? Carter? Johnson? Kennedy? John Paul? Benedict? Pius? Man, we're running out of hills fast!
    Do you have a specific answer to the question asked or not?
    I'm a student of history and could pull names out of the hat as well. However, that's not something I'm going to do because that doesn't come from Scripture.
    Well, I haven't pulled any names out of any hats. I have been specific and direct in my assertion that revelation 13 names two beasts. The first is the Roman church and it's temporal/political power that directs the power structure of the world. The second is the united States that has made an image to the beast system in it's own capital, it's own power structure, and it's total repugnant and unchristian actions.
    Could you be any more vague?
    The second is the united States that has made an image to the beast system in it's own capital, it's own power structure, and it's total repugnant and unchristian actions.Denver, are you aware of any other nation on earth that has set up a mirror image of the Roman power structure in it's capital? The Two BabylonsAlexander HislopChapter VIISection IVThe Image of the BeastJust a side question Denver since I take it you're not a Catholic. But what are you "protesting?"
     
  18. RND

    RND New Member

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  19. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Except that Israel is never refered to as a "woman" in scripture. Israel always deals with male/sons. The "woman" in this case is the "bride" of Christ, He being the bridegroom.The "woman" in this case did indeed push the Son of God front and center onto the world stage.
    Revelation 12:1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: A very similar image appears elsewhere in the Bible and it does not deal with the church but instead deals with Israel. I return to Genesis 39 and Joseph's dream: Genesis 37:9And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. 11 + 1(Joseph) = 12 The twelve tribes of Israel bore ensigns (Numbers 2:2). These had one of the twelve signs of the Zodiac for each house. 12 denotes governmental perfection. It would be blasphemous to say that the church (bride) gave rise to the groom when the groom was the one that made it possible for the bride to exist. Jesus was an Israelite and that's documented by his lineage.
    Do you have a specific answer to the question asked or not?
    Revelation 17:7-18 There are seven kings of seven mountains. As I said before, if this were merely what you say it is, how does one go about choosing the seven? These are earthly kings of mountains. I know the nonsense about Rome being built on seven hills, but there are not seven separate kings of each hill in Rome. Revelation 17:11And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. That is the second best of Revelation 13. It is a HE and HE is a king and not a mountain. He is the eighth king it says it right there. Revelation 17:12And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. They have yet to come and will receive power one hour. Revelation 12:3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. This beast differs slightly from the Revelation 13 one, but most characteristics remain the same. The difference is that there are only seven crowns and not ten. The ten horns are there though in heaven and they are later found on Earth. What does the Bible say about it again? Revelation 17:12And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. They are (wannabe) kings in heaven that will be kings on earth. These are some of the Lt.'s of Satan. These are not earthly men such as the first seven kings. Revelation 17:13These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. One mind that desires the same thing. Revelation 19:20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. Who is the false prophet? A mystery? Not at all.Revelation 13:11And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. He looks like a lamb but speaks just like that dragon that was tossed out of heaven because he is that dragon. He looks like the Lamb although he is nothing but a false prophet.
     
  20. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Just a side question Denver since I take it you're not a Catholic. But what are you "protesting?"
    I am a Christian.
     
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