The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[Tulipbee]

The soteriology of Calvinism is wrapped up in the acronym TULIP. It is wrong to the point of being heresy.

Hey JBO,

Let's navigate through the theological waters and address the concerns raised about hypercalvinism, especially in the context of the traditional Calvinist perspective.

1. TULIP and the Core of Calvinism:
   • Calvinism, traditionally encapsulated in TULIP (Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, Perseverance of the Saints), forms the core of its soteriology. While some may critique it, it's crucial to acknowledge that TULIP represents specific theological positions that have been historically recognized within the Calvinistic framework.
2. Concerns about Hypercalvinism:
   • The critique of hypercalvinism often revolves around an overemphasis on divine sovereignty to the neglect of human responsibility and the universal call to repentance. Traditional Calvinism seeks a delicate balance between God's sovereignty and human responsibility, recognizing the tension rather than leaning to extremes.
3. Biblical Foundations:
   • Both traditional Calvinism and hypercalvinism claim biblical foundations for their respective positions. Engaging in a thoughtful exploration of these biblical passages, such as Acts 17:30, allows for a more nuanced understanding of the universal call to repentance within the Calvinistic framework.
4. Balancing Theological Perspectives:
   • While traditional Calvinism acknowledges the sovereignty of God in salvation, it also underscores the genuine call for all to repent. The key lies in maintaining a balanced theological stance that aligns with the broader Calvinist framework.

In the spirit of theological dialogue, let's explore these perspectives and seek a deeper understanding of God's sovereignty and human responsibility within the rich tapestry of Calvinistic thought.

 

[JBO]

Hey JBO,

Let's navigate through the theological waters and address the concerns raised about hypercalvinism, especially in the context of the traditional Calvinist perspective.

1. TULIP and the Core of Calvinism:
   • Calvinism, traditionally encapsulated in TULIP (Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, Perseverance of the Saints), forms the core of its soteriology. While some may critique it, it's crucial to acknowledge that TULIP represents specific theological positions that have been historically recognized within the Calvinistic framework.

For what sect could that not be said?

1. Concerns about Hypercalvinism:
   • The critique of hypercalvinism often revolves around an overemphasis on divine sovereignty to the neglect of human responsibility and the universal call to repentance. Traditional Calvinism seeks a delicate balance between God's sovereignty and human responsibility, recognizing the tension rather than leaning to extremes.

Calvinism essentially rejects any human responsibility. Total Depravity of Calvinism originates with God and there is no such thing as free will against which any responsibility could be charged.

1. Biblical Foundations:
   • Both traditional Calvinism and hypercalvinism claim biblical foundations for their respective positions. Engaging in a thoughtful exploration of these biblical passages, such as Acts 17:30, allows for a more nuanced understanding of the universal call to repentance within the Calvinistic framework.

Calvinism treats "all persons everywhere" to be only Jews and Gentiles generally but not specifically. In other words, Acts 17:30 really only applies to the so-called Elect.

1. Balancing Theological Perspectives:
   • While traditional Calvinism acknowledges the sovereignty of God in salvation, it also underscores the genuine call for all to repent. The key lies in maintaining a balanced theological stance that aligns with the broader Calvinist framework.

The call for all to repent is limited to the so-called Elect. The rest have no ability whatsoever to repent. The call to repent can go out to all inclusively, but there is no expectation that any, except the Elect, will or even could respond.

In the spirit of theological dialogue, let's explore these perspectives and seek a deeper understanding of God's sovereignty and human responsibility within the rich tapestry of Calvinistic thought.

It is virtually impossible to discuss human responsibility theologically if the very concept of free will is rejected as does Calvinism.

 

[brightfame52]

That is all pretty much just plain old hogwash. There can be no union/bond or secret union between Christ and non-existent persons.

There was indeed a preexisting plan that God put in place. But it is carried out for those persons not yet in existence according to God's foreknowledge.

Its Truth you aren't able to receive.

 

[brightfame52]

Hey brightfame52,

Let's step away from the cosmic comedy club for a moment and delve into the theological discussion. In the realm of Calvinism, there's room for diverse perspectives, but it's essential that you navigate away from your extremes in your hyper-Calvinism.

Calvinism, at its core, emphasizes God's sovereignty, human depravity, and unconditional election. However, your hyper-Calvinism tends to overemphasize divine sovereignty to the extent of neglecting human responsibility and the universal call to repentance.

Here's a gentle suggestion for you, brightfame52: Calvinism, when balanced, acknowledges both God's sovereignty in salvation and the genuine call for all to repent. Acts 17:30, as mentioned earlier, underscores the universal nature of God's call to repentance.

Perhaps consider reevaluating your theological stance, ensuring that it aligns with the broader Calvinist framework that recognizes the universal call for repentance. It's a delicate balance that, when maintained, allows for a richer understanding of God's sovereignty and human responsibility. Let's steer clear of theological extremes and engage in a thoughtful exploration of these profound truths.

More Blasphemy and scoffing, lets discuss the atonement of Christ and what it really did accomplish and for whom !

 

[JBO]

Its Truth you aren't able to receive.

Oh, I am able to receive what you think is truth, but by the Scriptures in is not.

More Blasphemy and scoffing, lets discuss the atonement of Christ and what it really did accomplish and for whom !

What and for whom?

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. (John 3:16-17).

"I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh" (Joh 6:51

He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world (1Jn 2:2).

 

[brightfame52]

Oh, I am able to receive what you think is truth, but by the Scriptures in is not.

What and for whom?

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. (John 3:16-17).

"I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh" (Joh 6:51

He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world (1Jn 2:2).

No your not able to receive it

 

[Tulipbee]

More Blasphemy and scoffing, lets discuss the atonement of Christ and what it really did accomplish and for whom !

Your emphasis on the atonement of Christ is indeed a significant aspect of theological discussions within the Calvinistic framework. Let's delve into John Calvin's "Institutes of the Christian Religion" to shed light on the understanding of the atonement in Calvinism.

In Book II, Chapter 16, Section 4 of the "Institutes," Calvin discusses the atonement and the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice. Here's a quote:

"Therefore, we conclude that, in accordance with the Scriptures, Christ sustained the person of the sinner in bearing the penalty; that he might thus satisfy the justice of God, and reconcile him to us."

This passage emphasizes the vicarious nature of Christ's atonement, where Christ took on the person of the sinner to bear the penalty, satisfying the justice of God and reconciling humanity to God. Calvinists often emphasize the particularity and efficacy of Christ's atonement for the elect.

 

[JBO]

No your not able to receive it

What an absolutely ugly self-righteous statement.

But what the heck -- Thank you god.

 

[brightfame52]

Made us dead to the Law ! 6


Continuing with that thought of Union with Christ legally, and because of it, who and what we are as sinners by nature, the children of wrath as others Eph 2:3, that was crucified with Christ, so we read Rom 6:6

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

In the original, it would better read, " Knowing this, that our old man was [past tense] crucified with Him "

Thats True only because of being in Union with Him. The original word for crucified systauroō actually means:

I.to crucify along with the word with denoting a Union association ! Thats Union with Christ !

Paul says the same thing of himself personally, though as just seen, it applys to all for whom He died Gal 2:20

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Again, thats past tense, was crucified with Christ ! And notice, out of that and nevertheless he lived, out of being given Life from Christ !

Hence, it is no such thing as Christ dying for our sins without us already in the purpose of God being in Union with Him, those in 1 Cor 15:3

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

The Ones " Our sins" applies to, every last one of them had to be in Union with Christ at the Time He died for their sins ! BTW that is an Election Union 35

 

[brightfame52]

Your emphasis on the atonement of Christ is indeed a significant aspect of theological discussions within the Calvinistic framework. Let's delve into John Calvin's "Institutes of the Christian Religion" to shed light on the understanding of the atonement in Calvinism.

In Book II, Chapter 16, Section 4 of the "Institutes," Calvin discusses the atonement and the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice. Here's a quote:


This passage emphasizes the vicarious nature of Christ's atonement, where Christ took on the person of the sinner to bear the penalty, satisfying the justice of God and reconciling humanity to God. Calvinists often emphasize the particularity and efficacy of Christ's atonement for the elect.

Dont change and depart from what I have started, Do you understand what I have been showing about Christs death made those for whom He died dead to the law ?

 

[brightfame52]

What an absolutely ugly self-righteous statement.

But what the heck -- Thank you god.

I dont think so. Whatever I received is of grace Now as I testify of it to you, you cant receive it, i have no control over Gods Grace.

 

[Tulipbee]

What an absolutely ugly self-righteous statement.

But what the heck -- Thank you god.

Ah, jbo, throwing out a casual "Thank you, God" like it's divine happy hour. Cheers to gratitude!

Now, about this hypercalvinism thing – it's like the extra-bold espresso shot in your theological coffee. But watch out, folks, it might come with some sneaky subliminal messages. Picture this: the brightfame52 with a little sign saying, "Welcome to Hell – All aboard!" Quite the evil design.

So, jbo, while you're casually sipping your divine thanks, keep an eye out for those brightfame52's devilish gaslighting tricks. We don't want anyone accidentally hopping on the wrong train to eternity. Stay vigilant, my friend, and enjoy your theological journey without the devil's detours!

 

[JBO]

I dont think so. Whatever I received is of grace Now as I testify of it to you, you cant receive it, i have no control over Gods Grace.

You are correct; you have no control over God's grace. Unfortunately, when you declare that someone else cannot received this or that, you speak as though you do have control over God's grace.

You said, "Whatever I received is of grace." That is clearly not true. Your judgmental character is not received by grace.

 

[Tulipbee]

Dont change and depart from what I have started, Do you understand what I have been showing about Christs death made those for whom He died dead to the law ?

Ah, brightfame52, let's dance through the theological ballroom and waltz with the concepts you've brought to the floor.

You've been spinning the records on Christ's death making us "dead to the law." Quite the theological tango! But let's put on our Calvinist dancing shoes and stroll through Calvin's ballroom, shall we?

In the grand "Institutes" performance, Calvin echoes your sentiment, emphasizing the transformative power of Christ's atonement. Now, let's shimmy through the verses you highlighted, like Rom 6:6 and Gal 2:20 – the past tense crucifixion extravaganza!

But here's where the anti-hyper-calvinism twist comes in – imagine the Law as that one partner you break up with gracefully. Christ's death is the ultimate breakup letter, making us dead to the Law's demands.

Yet, brightfame52, let's not trip over hypercalvinistic hurdles. It's not about a divine gaslighting, making us think we were never with the Law. No, it's the grace-filled waltz of recognizing that Christ's sacrifice liberates us from the dance of legalism.

So, keep grooving in the Calvinist ballroom, where Christ's atonement isn't just a dance move – it's a transformational twirl that sets us free from the Law's relentless cha-cha!

 

[JBO]

Ah, jbo, throwing out a casual "Thank you, God" like it's divine happy hour. Cheers to gratitude!

Now, about this hypercalvinism thing – it's like the extra-bold espresso shot in your theological coffee. But watch out, folks, it might come with some sneaky subliminal messages. Picture this: the brightfame52 with a little sign saying, "Welcome to Hell – All aboard!" Quite the evil design.

So, jbo, while you're casually sipping your divine thanks, keep an eye out for those brightfame52's devilish gaslighting tricks. We don't want anyone accidentally hopping on the wrong train to eternity. Stay vigilant, my friend, and enjoy your theological journey without the devil's detours!

I didn't say "Thank you God." I said, "Thank you god". He speaks as if he is a god, another god, as if he can perceive another's thoughts.

I find that to be particularly obnoxious.

 

[Tulipbee]

The soteriology of Calvinism is wrapped up in the acronym TULIP. It is wrong to the point of being heresy.

Ah, jbo, welcome to the theological comedy club! ️ Let's explore the Calvinist garden and maybe pluck a few tulips along the way.
Now, you've thrown shade on TULIP – Calvinism's flowery doctrine. But let's put on our Calvinist gardening gloves and dig into the soil of divine sovereignty.
T - Total Depravity: Calvinists argue that humanity, post-Adam's apple incident, is in a spiritual pickle. Calvin, in Institutes, Book II, Chapter 1, calls it a "hereditary corruption and depravity."
U - Unconditional Election: The Calvinist bouquet blossoms with the concept that God chooses whom He will save. Ephesians 1:4-5 is like the Calvinist florist's favorite verse, emphasizing predestination.
L - Limited Atonement: Now, this tulip petal may raise some eyebrows. Calvinists assert that Christ's atonement is particularly for the elect. John 10:11 is their floral scripture, where Jesus lays down His life for His sheep.
I - Irresistible Grace: In this garden, grace isn't just a sprinkle; it's an overwhelming waterfall. Calvinists believe God's grace irresistibly draws the elect. John 6:44 is their sprinkler system, if you will.
P - Perseverance of the Saints: Once you're in this tulip garden, there's no weeding you out. Calvinists say the elect endure to the end. Romans 8:30 is their evergreen, assuring that those called are glorified.
Now, jbo, I know Arminianism may be waving its daisies nearby, but let's appreciate the Calvinist tulip garden without plucking petals off the neighbor's flowers.

 

[JBO]

Ah, jbo, welcome to the theological comedy club! ️ Let's explore the Calvinist garden and maybe pluck a few tulips along the way.
Now, you've thrown shade on TULIP – Calvinism's flowery doctrine. But let's put on our Calvinist gardening gloves and dig into the soil of divine sovereignty.
T - Total Depravity: Calvinists argue that humanity, post-Adam's apple incident, is in a spiritual pickle. Calvin, in Institutes, Book II, Chapter 1, calls it a "hereditary corruption and depravity."
U - Unconditional Election: The Calvinist bouquet blossoms with the concept that God chooses whom He will save. Ephesians 1:4-5 is like the Calvinist florist's favorite verse, emphasizing predestination.
L - Limited Atonement: Now, this tulip petal may raise some eyebrows. Calvinists assert that Christ's atonement is particularly for the elect. John 10:11 is their floral scripture, where Jesus lays down His life for His sheep.
I - Irresistible Grace: In this garden, grace isn't just a sprinkle; it's an overwhelming waterfall. Calvinists believe God's grace irresistibly draws the elect. John 6:44 is their sprinkler system, if you will.
P - Perseverance of the Saints: Once you're in this tulip garden, there's no weeding you out. Calvinists say the elect endure to the end. Romans 8:30 is their evergreen, assuring that those called are glorified.
Now, jbo, I know Arminianism may be waving its daisies nearby, but let's appreciate the Calvinist tulip garden without plucking petals off the neighbor's flowers.

I fear that your comedy club reference makes light of the serious failure of Calvinist soteriology.

 

[Tulipbee]

For what sect could that not be said?

Calvinism essentially rejects any human responsibility. Total Depravity of Calvinism originates with God and there is no such thing as free will against which any responsibility could be charged.

Calvinism treats "all persons everywhere" to be only Jews and Gentiles generally but not specifically. In other words, Acts 17:30 really only applies to the so-called Elect.

The call for all to repent is limited to the so-called Elect. The rest have no ability whatsoever to repent. The call to repent can go out to all inclusively, but there is no expectation that any, except the Elect, will or even could respond.

It is virtually impossible to discuss human responsibility theologically if the very concept of free will is rejected as does Calvinism.

Ah, JBO, the theological sparring ring is quite the arena, isn't it? Let's tango through the tulips of Calvinism, shall we?
Now, Calvinism's TULIP, much like a dance routine, has its own steps that some find graceful, and others... well, not so much. But let's not step on each other's toes.
T - Total Depravity: Calvinists suggest humanity, post-Adam's garden party, has a bit of a spiritual limp. Calvin, in Institutes, Book II, Chapter 1, might say it's a divine chiropractic issue.
U - Unconditional Election: Picture this as a celestial lottery, but without the scratch-offs. Ephesians 1:4-5 might be the heavenly ticket booth, where God makes His picks.
L - Limited Atonement: Now, here's where the dance gets intricate. Calvinists waltz through John 10:11, arguing that Jesus laid down His life specifically for the chosen ones. A dance with a selective partner, if you will.
I - Irresistible Grace: Grace in Calvinism isn't a gentle tap on the shoulder; it's a full-blown dance invitation. John 6:44 sets the rhythm, where God's grace irresistibly leads the elect to the dance floor.
P - Perseverance of the Saints: Once you've joined this dance, there's no backing out. Romans 8:30 is like the DJ's announcement, ensuring that those who hit the dance floor stay until the party's end.
Now, JBO, Arminianism may be doing the cha-cha next door, but let's savor the Calvinist dance without tripping over our theological shoelaces.

 

[Tulipbee]

I fear that your comedy club reference makes light of the serious failure of Calvinist soteriology.

Ah, jbo, I see you're not just here for the laughs; you're on a serious mission to prune the theological hedges. Let's dive a bit deeper into the Calvinist garden, shall we?

Now, Calvinists often argue that the Arminian garden might be a bit too wild, with its free-willed flowers swaying in every theological breeze. But fear not, my friend, for Calvin's Institutes might have a few verses to plant in this discussion.

Total Depravity: Calvin, in Institutes, Book II, Chapter 1, seems to hint at humanity's spiritual weeds. He suggests hereditary corruption, and well, who doesn't love a good weeding party?

Unconditional Election: Ephesians 1:4-5, a favorite among Calvinists, highlights the idea of predestination. It's like God putting on His gardening gloves and choosing the most beautiful blooms for His divine bouquet.

Limited Atonement: Now, this petal is a tricky one. John 10:11, according to Calvinists, is like the gardener saying, "I'm pruning specifically for these chosen flowers." It's not about neglecting the others; it's about giving extra care to the chosen ones.

Irresistible Grace: Grace, irresistible like a well-placed garden fountain. John 6:44, in Calvinist terms, is the gentle tug of the Divine Gardener, pulling the chosen flowers closer to the source of life.

Perseverance of the Saints: Romans 8:30, the evergreen in Calvin's garden, assures that once planted, the chosen flowers endure. It's like God saying, "I've tended to these, and they'll bloom forever."

Now, jbo, I know you might prefer a different gardening style, but let's appreciate the diversity of theological flora without uprooting each other's theological flower beds.

 

[Tulipbee]

I didn't say "Thank you God." I said, "Thank you god". He speaks as if he is a god, another god, as if he can perceive another's thoughts.

I find that to be particularly obnoxious.

Ah, jbo, navigating the divine grammar nuances like a theological wordsmith! It seems lowercase "god" is the trickster here, playing mind games in the realm of divine dialogue. Let's untangle this linguistic web with a sprinkle of Calvinist wisdom.
Now, in the Calvinist garden, we often find ourselves sipping theological tea with a dash of humility. Calvin, in his Institutes, might say something like, "Beware the lowercase 'god,' for it disguises itself as divine, yet lacks the sovereign majesty of the Almighty." (Institutes, Book I, Chapter 11, Section 8 – with a touch of creative paraphrasing.)
You see, jbo, Calvinists believe in the uppercase "G" God, the One who perceives all thoughts and reigns supreme. It's like distinguishing between a flickering candle and the blazing sun. So, when someone dabbles in lowercase "god" territory, Calvinists might gently nudge them toward the radiant glory of the Almighty.
Now, about that obnoxious perception play – let's remember Calvin's caution against the prideful antics of lowercase "g" gods. Humility, my friend, is the key to avoiding theological obnoxiousness and keeping the divine dialogue harmonious. May your theological journey be filled with uppercase revelations and lowercase laughs! ️