The Basis of Salvation

[Heart2Soul]

Are we allowed to call the Catholic Church a "cult" on here? I'm not a member of the RCC, nor do I hold sympathy with the vast majority of their doctrines but, Wow, Wild ,Wild West!

Cult applies to any religious organization....now I would definitely put a stop to anyone claiming any Christian denomination is an Occult.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You're focusing on the "group" instead of the language used, which is FAR more important.

I have challenged you and everybody else to deal with "Epignosis". This tells us that the people being written to have a FULL, experiential and relational knowledge of Christ (Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-22) - and are being warned not to fall away and LOSE their security.

You are drawing conclusions which Paul never intended. He is encouraging believers to endure and persevere under trial. But it doesn't follow, therefore, that every reader who reads his epistle is being saved by God. Remember? Not every believer is being saved by God. Only one type of soil is prepared to accept the word and persevere. All soils are not the same.

 

[BarneyFife]

Cult applies to any religious organization....now I would definitely put a stop to anyone claiming any Christian denomination is an Occult.

I was just shocked that someone was allowed to be so bold and blunt. It's not what I'm used to. I suppose staff is always in short supply to enforce standards. I like the overall open atmosphere here very much, though.

 

[Heart2Soul]

I was just shocked that someone was allowed to be so bold and blunt. It's not what I'm used to. I suppose staff is always in short supply to enforce standards. I like the overall open atmosphere here very much, though.

Sarcasm is allowed...and I did let the poster know that excessive posts against a denomination is against the rules.
But for the fact that he used the word cult...(in ignorance suggesting the cult of Mary is an antichrist practice or unbiblical practice)
But in reality...if you apply it's literal definition...it just identifies a type of religious organization.

Oh and I have requested he give us the sources he used for his OP....otherwise it's just biased opinion...which is another way of saying judgmental behavior towards those of other faith.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Of course. We retain our free will. So what? I already dealt with this in my previous post.

Who said anything about coercion?

This seems to be your only focus, your only argument, which does NOT deal with salvation. You have target fixation, unable to see other scriptures that bear on the subject. This is why you say, "we are his workmanship BUT . . ." Either we are his workmanship or not. Paul said we are a creation in Christ Jesus. We are a creation. Let that sink in. The choices of those whom God is saving are definitely a reflection of the inwardness he is creating inside them. Thus, the sum and substance of salvation is a supernatural transformation of a person at the core of his or her being. Thus, Biblical warnings become the venue in which the saints demonstrate and practice the sanctification of the Holy Spirit.

You want to argue that the Bible contains warnings; and the presence of warnings logically implies both danger and failure. Given that mankind has free will, and given that mankind is weak and morally inept, then a falling away from the faith remains a logical possibility. Therefore one can lose his salvation.

But your argument side-steps the essential nature of salvation itself, which involves a divine commission, whereby God himself has decided to save someone. He is saving us, we are not saving ourselves. And don't let this view escape your notice. The Bible teaches us that God is an active agent, working constantly on our behalf, giving us enlightenment, moral training, and fruits of the Spirit. Your claim that such a person can fall away is patently absurd.

Your view totally ignores both the power and the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of those whom God is saving.

ANY situation where we are in concert with the will of God - and it was NOT our choice is coercion.

If you are married - and you lavish your wife with gifts in order to stay with you - that's NOT love. SHE needs to make the conscious decision to stay with you. That's the only REAL love.
God doesn't BRIBE us to stay with Him - and until we are made perfect in Heaven - we are not in perfect union with His will because of our proclivity toward sin.

Those in Heaven ARE in perfect union with His will.
We're still BEING sanctified.

 

[CadyandZoe]

ANY situation where we are in concert with the will of God - and it was NOT our choice is coercion.

Who said it wasn't our choice? Expand your thinking. Try to think of God as the creator, not the enforcer.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You are drawing conclusions which Paul never intended. He is encouraging believers to endure and persevere under trial. But it doesn't follow, therefore, that every reader who reads his epistle is being saved by God. Remember? Not every believer is being saved by God. Only one type of soil is prepared to accept the word and persevere. All soils are not the same.

Even if that's how you want to understand it - the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to use this word (Epignosis) when he COULD have used two other words (gnosis or oida).

Even if you only apply it to a portion of who it is being written to - the word AND the warning do not lose their meaning.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Who said it wasn't our choice? Expand your thinking. Try to think of God as the creator, not the enforcer.

I think of Him as the Scriptures describe Him - as Creator and Refiner . . .

 

[CadyandZoe]

Even if that's how you want to understand it - the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to use this word (Epignosis) when he COULD have used two other words (gnosis or oida).

Even if you only apply it to a portion of who it is being written to - the word AND the warning do not lose their meaning.

Granted, but that isn't the point. Your argument hinges on the fact that everyone in the group are saved, which isn't true.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I think of Him as the Scriptures describe Him - as Creator and Refiner . . .

Does a creator need to use coercion? No. If the creator decides to tweak my will so that I will always obey him, he is not coercing me. He is healing me; and he is creating me. Do you see the difference? When theologians argue for freedom of the will, their view of God isn't big enough. God is the creator. He is the one who said, let there be light. He is also the one who might say, let there be a person who always obeys me. This is an act of creation, not an act of force.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Granted, but that isn't the point. Your argument hinges on the fact that everyone in the group are saved, which isn't true.

That's not true.

I just explained to you that even if Paul is generalizing - as ALL pastors and preachers do with congregations - the MESSAGE is the same.
The message AND the language remain unchanged.

 

[CadyandZoe]

That's not true.

I just explained to you that even if Paul is generalizing - as ALL pastors and preachers do with congregations - the MESSAGE is the same.
The message AND the language remain unchanged.

I know that the message hasn't changed. But in order for you to argue that a person can lose his salvation, the warnings must always apply to everyone whom God is saving. This is not true. Your argument fails on that point.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Does a creator need to use coercion? No. If the creator decides to tweak my will so that I will always obey him, he is not coercing me. He is healing me; and he is creating me. Do you see the difference? When theologians argue for freedom of the will, their view of God isn't big enough. God is the creator. He is the one who said, let there be light. He is also the one who might say, let there be a person who always obeys me. This is an act of creation, not an act of force.

Is THAT what you think God does?? That He manipulates your will to be in union with His??
That is outright heresy.

He doesn't need to "tweak" anything. He gives us a FREE gift - and the FREE choice to accept or reject it.
This is what it means to cooperate with God's will.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I know that the message hasn't changed. But in order for you to argue that a person can lose his salvation, the warnings must always apply to everyone whom God is saving. This is not true. Your argument fails on that point.

That's just it - the warnings DO apply to everybody.
They apply to SOME in a more immediate sense and others in a more future sense - but they apply to us ALL.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Is THAT what you think God does?? That He manipulates your will to be in union with His??
That is outright heresy.

Again, expand your thinking. God is a creator, not a manipulator. The action of manipulating something in a skillful manner, presupposes that the "something" already exists. The creator brings things into existence that didn't already exist.

He doesn't need to "tweak" anything. He gives us a FREE gift - and the FREE choice to accept or reject it.
This is what it means to cooperate with God's will.

Okay, use your free choice to cooperate with his will. I'll wait.

 

[CadyandZoe]

That's just it - the warnings DO apply to everybody.
They apply to SOME in a more immediate sense and others in a more future sense - but they apply to us ALL.

Okay, perhaps I misspoke. Your view requires that everyone hearing the warning is already saved. This is not true. And for some reason you can't see this. So let's move to another passage.

Consider

2 Peter 1:9-11
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

Here Peter is talking about a man who might have forgotten his purification from his former sins. What is his solution? What advise does he give? He tells them to "make certain about his calling and choosing you." The clear implication here is the fact that if a man lacks these qualities, being blind and short-sighted, God has not called him or chosen him. In the passage that follows Peter gives a list of criteria by which a person might check to see if God has actually called them or not.

Do you see that or no?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Again, expand your thinking. God is a creator, not a manipulator. The action of manipulating something in a skillful manner, presupposes that the "something" already exists. The creator brings things into existence that didn't already exist.

You can try to get as philosophical as you want - but in the end, you're coming to the same conclusion:
God manipulates you into doing His will.

Okay, use your free choice to cooperate with his will. I'll wait.

I went to mass today and received the Eucharist.
I believe I was cooperating with God's grace.

Had I refused to go and gone to brunch instead - I would have been disobedient.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You can try to get as philosophical as you want - but in the end, you're coming to the same conclusion:
God manipulates you into doing His will.

I went to mass today and received the Eucharist.
I believe I was cooperating with God's grace.

Had I refused to go and gone to brunch instead - I would have been disobedient.

Do you go to confession?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Do you go to confession?

Absolutely, per John 320:21-23, Matt. 16:19, Matt. 18:15-18 and John 16:12-15.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Okay, perhaps I misspoke. Your view requires that everyone hearing the warning is already saved. This is not true. And for some reason you can't see this. So let's move to another passage.

Consider

2 Peter 1:9-11
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

Here Peter is talking about a man who might have forgotten his purification from his former sins. What is his solution? What advise does he give? He tells them to "make certain about his calling and choosing you." The clear implication here is the fact that if a man lacks these qualities, being blind and short-sighted, God has not called him or chosen him. In the passage that follows Peter gives a list of criteria by which a person might check to see if God has actually called them or not.

Do you see that or no?

Being called and chosen does NOT require that I accept.
Anyway - until we get past "Epignosis" - we're at a standstill.

Epignosis is the death knell for OSAS . .