The beliefs of the early Chiliasts were the antithesis of modern Premil

[Behold]

What adds to the complexity and perplexity is the fact that these ancient writings can be quite ambiguous, inconsistent and illogical at times.

Read your NT and believe it, first and foremost.

Then read PAUL and read PAUL and read PAUL, as Paul is the writer of most of the NT Epistles, and nearly all Church Doctrine.

Then, relegate scholarship, and early church father's concepts and similar to......"that's interesting" "but what does Paul Teach".

Always bring whatever man made rabbit Hole theology you are chasing right back to ... "but what does Paul teach".
This way, you stay safely here..

Hebrews 13:9

 

[WPM]

I would have answered some things, but I saw too much in one post, and I came here displaying no wisdom or fruit in my reply, which even if I did have the knowledge and understanding about this subject that I think I have, counts zero in the Kingdom of Christ, so I apologize to you and will leave both of your threads that I responded to alone.

I meant what I said when I said I'm glad to see you here, though. I do know who you are from the other place. Your writings are even more recognizable than Paul's

Ok. Fair enough.

 

[WPM]

Read your NT and believe it, first and foremost.

Then read PAUL and read PAUL and read PAUL, as Paul is the writer of most of the NT Epistles, and nearly all Church Doctrine.

Then, relegate scholarship, and early church father's concepts and similar to......"that's interesting" "but what does Paul Teach".

Always bring whatever man made rabbit Hole theology you are chasing right back to ... "but what does Paul teach".
This way, you stay safely here..

Hebrews 13:9

Why just Paul? Why not Christ? Why not the other NT writers? Why not Moses and the prophets? These are all Scripture, and all agree that the coming of Christ is climactic.

Christ appears with His holy angels (Matthew 13:41-43, 49 16:27 24:29-31 25:31-32, Mark 13:25-27, Luke 9:26, Revelation 14:14-20) and the New Jerusalem (John 14:1-3, Hebrews 11:8-10, 13-16, 13:14. Revelation 3:11-12, 21:1-4).

There is a general resurrection/judgment (singular) of all mankind at the coming of Christ (Matthew 10:15, 12:36, 16:27, 25:31-46, John 5:21-30, 6:39-44, 54, 10:42, 11:21-27, 12:48, 17:30-32, 24:15, Acts 10:42, 17:30-31, Romans 2:4-8, 14:10-12, 1 Corinthians 3:6-8, 11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:5, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 2 Timothy 4:1-8, 2 Thessalonians 1:5-8, 1 Timothy 5:24, Hebrews 9:27, 10:27, 2 Peter 2:9, 3:7, 1 Peter 4:1-5, 1 John 4:17, and Revelation 19:11, 20:11-15, 22:12).

Satan cast into the Lake of Fire (Isaiah 26:19, II Thessalonians 2:1-9 Revelation 20:10). This occurs before the heaven and earth pass away in Revelation 20.

There is a climactic conflagration (Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15).

Perfection arrives with the age to come (Luke 20:27-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55, 2 Peter 3:3-13 Philippians 3:20-21, 1 Peter 4:3-7, Hebrews 1:10-12 and Revelation 20:11-15, 21:1-5).

The age to come possesses no mortals. The wicked are destroyed at His appearing (2 Samuel 22:9, Job 41:20-21, Psalm 18:7-8, 37:9-11, 50:1-6, 68:1-3, 97:3-5, Isaiah 11:4-5, 13:9, 30:33, 66:15-17, Joel 2:1-3, 2:10-11, Nahum 1:1, 5-6, Malachi 4:1, Luke 17:26-30, 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 6:9, 13:8-13, 15:50-55, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3, II Thessalonians 1:4-10, Revelation 16:15-21, 19:11-18, Revelation 21-22).

1 Corinthians 13:12, Ephesians 4:13 and Revelation 10:5-7 show that the curtain coming down on the mystery of God, thus confirming we are at the end of time and entering into eternity when all will finally be revealed.

This is a water-tight argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Both main positions believed that:

· Sin and sinners will be destroyed at the second coming.
· Mortals and mortality will be destroyed at the second coming.
· Satan and his demons will be destroyed at the second coming.

1. No, sin will be put down, restrained, but not eliminated. During the Millennial Kingdom, since the population of earth will be 100% Christians, all children that will be born during this time will have a minute evil influence - since Satan and his horde will be locked up and thus brought up in the knowledge of the LORD will they witness up close and personal.
2. Mortality will not be destroyed for all. The remnant Jewish population will realize and believe, AFTER every eye sees Jesus and after the resurrection of the Church. Romans 11 confirms thus.
3. Satan will not be destroyed, just locked up.

>> If this is what the Chilist believed, sorry the Premils don't have this is common.

This is altogether different to that which is advocated by modern-day Premillennialists, who see all the bondage of corruption continuing after Jesus comes in all His majestic glory. Sin and sinners, dying and crying, decay and disease, and Satan and his minions can all be found in the Premillennialist age to come.

There will be peace on earth for most of the MK. Close to the end, Satan is released to do his thing. I don't believe his number of followers will be great, not like they are now.
There will be no false religions to lead people astray. Think about how much damage that does. No atheism, no TOE, Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, etc.

The ancient Patriarchs on all sides taught that Christ was currently reigning over His enemies in this existing age.

God is sovereignty, always has been. He has allowed and restrained evil for a purpose. We know and appreciate what good is because we know evil.

They held that there was nothing that was not under His sovereign power.

That's true, just mentioned that.

They saw that rule coming to an end at the return of Christ (which they understood as “the consummation”), when all of His enemies would be finally and eternally destroyed.

Of this is what they saw, again, Premils don't.
Judgment Day is coming in two phases: during the Great Tribulation and then again after the Millennial Kingdom. The "consummation" for Christians is when we are resurrected, receive our new eternal bodies - which is what being glorified means.

The early Christians believed that when Jesus ascended into heaven he had been installed and exalted as King, reigning as Lord of all.”

Absolutely!

Psalm 2, Psalm 110, Isaiah 2, Micah 4 and Isaiah 66 that most commentators agree relate to the kingly reign of the anointed One during the Messianic period are applied to the here-and-now rather than a millennial period after the second coming.

Psalm 2 - Armageddon (during the Great Tribulation, a period lasting 3 1/2 years)
Psalm 110 - GT
Isaiah 2 & Micah 4 - Jesus will dwell on earth in Zion, on the mountain overlooking Jerusalem _ in His Temple that will be built. This literally teaches us about His earthly reign, soon to come.
Isaiah 66 - GT, Jerusalem and MK

They saw the First Advent as the defeat of Satan and his minions.

Well His death did defeat Satan's overall purpose to destroy all of mankind. But the Lord's sheep will he saved.

They taught that Christ vanquished every opponent of righteousness through His sinless life, His atoning death and His glorious resurrection.

Vanquished? I don't know what world you live in, but evil has corrupted much, destroyed many and is about to have it's allotted reign. IMHO, the New World Order _ ruled by the Antichrist _ whom has not yet been revealed _ is currently leading this world towards a socialist, tyranical reign, that will only last 3 1/2 years; nevertheless, cataclysmic events are coming.

They believed and taught that the Messiah brought peace to His subjects after His great conquest.

Absolutely

They believed that this supernatural peace comes through the success of the Gospel going out of Zion to all nations in these last days.

The Lord gives us peace, not like the world. But I think you conflate Zion with heaven, nope.

Early Church Chiliast writers viewed this current age as the glorious Messianic reign of Christ over His enemies

Well, if so, they were wrong.
Messianic prophecies that haven't yet been fulfilled:

Matthew 6:10
Daniel 2:44
Isaiah 9:7
Jeremiah 3:17
Isaiah 11:5-10
Psalm 72:8
Revelation 6 - 22 ( exception - parts of 12 alludes to Israel and Christ's birth)
Matthew 5:5
Zechariah 8:20-23
Zechariah 14:9
Zephaniah 3:9
Habakkuk 2:14
Micah 4
Ezekiel 36:36
Jeremiah 31:34
Isaiah 35:5-6
Isaiah 65:21-25
Isaiah 2:4
Numbers 14:21
Revelation 11:15
1 Thessalonians 4:16
Matthew 24 (partially fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD)

 

[WPM]

1. No, sin will be put down, restrained, but not eliminated. During the Millennial Kingdom, since the population of earth will be 100% Christians, all children that will be born during this time will have a minute evil influence - since Satan and his horde will be locked up and thus brought up in the knowledge of the LORD will they witness up close and personal.
2. Mortality will not be destroyed for all. The remnant Jewish population will realize and believe, AFTER every eye sees Jesus and after the resurrection of the Church. Romans 11 confirms thus.
3. Satan will not be destroyed, just locked up.

>> If this is what the Chilist believed, sorry the Premils don't have this is common.

Thanks for taking the time to address this.

Your last statement was my simple overriding point: early Chiliasm was a completely different animal to modern Premil. It was more akin to Amil on most of its view of the character of the age to come. Amillennialists and Chiliasts remained united in their perfect and pristine expectation of the approaching age, not the ugly sin-curse goat-infested death-blighted future millennium Premils promote.

There will be peace on earth for most of the MK. Close to the end, Satan is released to do his thing. I don't believe his number of followers will be great, not like they are now.

Really? Where then do the billions of wicked rebels come from "as the sand of the sea" to overrun the age to come?

There will be no false religions to lead people astray. Think about how much damage that does. No atheism, no TOE, Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, etc.

Where does it teach this? I think you are using your own imagination.

God is sovereignty, always has been. He has allowed and restrained evil for a purpose. We know and appreciate what good is because we know evil.

That's true, just mentioned that.

Of this is what they saw, again, Premils don't.
Judgment Day is coming in two phases: during the Great Tribulation and then again after the Millennial Kingdom. The "consummation" for Christians is when we are resurrected, receive our new eternal bodies - which is what being glorified means.

Absolutely!

But, Premillennialists do not believe that when Jesus ascended into heaven He had been installed and exalted as King, reigning as Lord of all. They teach that that occurs in their so-called future millennium.

Psalm 2 - Armageddon (during the Great Tribulation, a period lasting 3 1/2 years)
Psalm 110 - GT
Isaiah 2 & Micah 4 - Jesus will dwell on earth in Zion, on the mountain overlooking Jerusalem _ in His Temple that will be built. This literally teaches us about His earthly reign, soon to come.
Isaiah 66 - GT, Jerusalem and MK

Exactly. Chiliasts believed the opposite. They attributed it to our day.

Well His death did defeat Satan's overall purpose to destroy all of mankind. But the Lord's sheep will he saved.

Vanquished? I don't know what world you live in, but evil has corrupted much, destroyed many and is about to have it's allotted reign. IMHO, the New World Order _ ruled by the Antichrist _ whom has not yet been revealed _ is currently leading this world towards a socialist, tyranical reign, that will only last 3 1/2 years; nevertheless, cataclysmic events are coming.

Absolutely

The Lord gives us peace, not like the world. But I think you conflate Zion with heaven, nope.

These predictions were talking about this messianic period.

Well, if so, they were wrong.
Messianic prophecies that haven't yet been fulfilled:

Matthew 6:10
Daniel 2:44
Isaiah 9:7
Jeremiah 3:17
Isaiah 11:5-10
Psalm 72:8
Revelation 6 - 22 ( exception - parts of 12 alludes to Israel and Christ's birth)
Matthew 5:5
Zechariah 8:20-23
Zechariah 14:9
Zephaniah 3:9
Habakkuk 2:14
Micah 4
Ezekiel 36:36
Jeremiah 31:34
Isaiah 35:5-6
Isaiah 65:21-25
Isaiah 2:4
Numbers 14:21
Revelation 11:15
1 Thessalonians 4:16
Matthew 24 (partially fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD)

This is my simple overriding point. Amils agree with early Chiliasts on this.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Where then do the billions of wicked rebels come from "as the sand of the sea" to overrun the age to come?

Well, not sure of billions, but this happens after the 1000 years is up. Satan deceives the nations for a short time, for the last time.

Where does it teach this? I think you are using your own imagination.

Jesus destroys all people on earth who have rejected Him. He rids the planet of all false religions. It is judgment day. I suppose you think His judgment spares false religions? That is the whole point of judging the world, sin, evil, false religions, etc.

Isaiah 11:6–9 "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young ones shall lie down together; and the Lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play by the cobra's hole and the weaned child shall out his hand in the viper's den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in My Holy mountain. For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea."

>>> If the earth is full of His knowledge, then obviously false knowledge has no place! How else would there be peace?

Until the Spirit is poured out upon us from on high,
And the wilderness becomes a fertile field,
And the fertile field is considered as a forest.
Then justice will dwell in the wilderness
And righteousness will abide in the fertile field. And the work of righteousness will be peace,
And the service of righteousness, quietness and confidence forever.
Then my people will live in a peaceful habitation,
And in secure dwellings and in undisturbed resting places; Isaiah 32:15-18


"I was watching in the night visions, and behold, One like the Son of Man, coming in the clouds of heaven ... Then to Him was given dominion glory and kingdom, that all people's, nations and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom, the one which will not be destroyed." Daniel 7:13-14

>>> ALL PEOPLE serve that LORD at this time. This has not been the case anytime in history!

But, Premillennialists do not believe that when Jesus ascended into heaven He had been installed and exalted as King, reigning as Lord of all. They teach that that occurs in their so-called future millennium.

What are talking about, JESUS is the KING OF KINGS, LORD OF LORDS. What Christian does not admit that? His spiritual kingdom _ from above _ as He told Pilate _ is true. But He has a Covenant to keep, to come and rule as KING ON EARTH. I gave you scriptures. Are you just ignoring them?
>>"Thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." Matthew 6:10
>> Jesus will sit "upon the Throne of David". Isaiah 6:9
>>"...At that time they shall call Jerusalem the Throne of God and all nations shall be gathered to it ..." Jer. 3:17
>> " ... The earth sahll be filled with the glory of God". Numbers 14:21
>> " ... Many people shall come and say, 'Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, and we shall walk in His paths. For out of Zion shall come forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He shall judge between the nations and rebuke many people; they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." Isaiah 2:2-4)

 

[WPM]

>>"Thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." Matthew 6:10
>> Jesus will sit "upon the Throne of David". Isaiah 6:9
>>"...At that time they shall call Jerusalem the Throne of God and all nations shall be gathered to it ..." Jer. 3:17
>> " ... The earth sahll be filled with the glory of God". Numbers 14:21
>> " ... Many people shall come and say, 'Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, and we shall walk in His paths. For out of Zion shall come forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He shall judge between the nations and rebuke many people; they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." Isaiah 2:2-4)

Jesus has already assumed David's throne!

Listen to Peter preaching on Psalm 110:1, when speaking about David and his throne, says, “For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance [referring to Psalms 16:8-10]. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne [referring to Psalms 132:12]; he seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption [referring to Psalms 16:10]. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, the Lord said unto my Lord, sit thou on my right hand, until I make thy foes thy footstool [referring to Psalm 110:1]. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ” (Acts 2:25-36).

Peter shows us that Psalm 110:1 is currently being fulfilled since Christ destroyed the power of the grave, and ascended to the right hand of majesty on high. No objective Bible student could fail to see the focus and message of this narrative. This reading is concentrated upon the victory of the resurrection of Christ nearly 2,000 years ago and the resulting current kingly Messianic reign of Christ at “the right hand of God exalted” in heaven. It confirms that Israel’s Messiah now sits enthroned upon David’s throne, and locates the timing of His assumption of the same to after “the resurrection of Christ.” As Messiah, Christ fulfilled every human demand of Him, thus rightfully assuming the kingship of Israel through His impeccable life, His atoning death and His glorious resurrection.

Paul joins Peter in relating the fulfilment of the Messianic enthronement to Christ’s current kingly reign in heaven. This truth is confirmed in Acts 13:22-23. Paul speaking to the religious Jews in Antioch says, concerning the promise of the Messiah and His rise to the throne of David, which was made unto their forefathers, “he (God) raised (aorist active indicative) up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. Of this man's (David’s) seed hath God according to his promise raised (aorist active indicative) unto Israel a saviour, Jesus.”

This Davidic reference was used by Paul to demonstrate (to his Israeli audience) that the much-anticipated eternal Davidic reign (prophesied for centuries in the Old Testament) had arrived in the form of Jesus Christ and His glorious resurrection. Christ was indeed Israel’s anticipated “king” and “saviour.” Premillennialists are selective in their interpretation of passages like this. The reason being: they have to be! Passages like this negate their doctrine. Whilst they except Christ as Israel’s current “saviour,” they do not except Him was Israel’s current ruling “king.” However, this text exposes their objection. This passage proves that Christ is presented as already perfectly fulfilling the Davidic expectancy.

Paul adds in Acts 13:26-30, “Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent. For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him. And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. But God raised him from the dead.”

It is clear from this whole chapter that these misguided Jews still foolishly yearned for a coming Messiah who would one day reign upon a physical temporal earthly throne in Jerusalem, when He had in fact already come and rose to the heavenly Davidic throne. These earthly-minded Jews totally missed the hour of their visitation because of their false theology. They totally misunderstood who their Messiah was and what form His reign would look like. The sobering part of this text is, their misinterpretation of Scripture, and their false expectation, caused them to miss their Messiah. The fact is, He came to Israel and most Jews never even recognised Him for who He was. They had such a wrong perception of their own king.

Paul then enlarges and explains, “And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers (speaking about the kingly Messianic reign that would usher from the seed of David), God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. And as concerning that [Psalm 2] he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise [His glorious rise to the throne], I will give you the sure mercies of David [quoting Isaiah 55:3]” (vv 32-34).

What is majorly significant with this whole discourse from an eschatological point of view is that Paul references 2 popular Old Testament prophecies that the Jews commonly used anticipating the Messianic appearing and Davidic reign and showed how they have been fulfilled in the person of Christ and the victory of the resurrection. Here in explicit language Paul describes the realization of these Messianic predictions; the promised Messiah had already come and taken the throne of David, although, evidently, not in the person or in the manner that they had carnally imagined.

 

[WPM]

What are talking about, JESUS is the KING OF KINGS, LORD OF LORDS. What Christian does not admit that? His spiritual kingdom _ from above _ as He told Pilate _ is true. But He has a Covenant to keep, to come and rule as KING ON EARTH. I gave you scriptures. Are you just ignoring them?
>>"Thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." Matthew 6:10
>> Jesus will sit "upon the Throne of David". Isaiah 6:9
>>"...At that time they shall call Jerusalem the Throne of God and all nations shall be gathered to it ..." Jer. 3:17
>> " ... The earth sahll be filled with the glory of God". Numbers 14:21
>> " ... Many people shall come and say, 'Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, and we shall walk in His paths. For out of Zion shall come forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He shall judge between the nations and rebuke many people; they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." Isaiah 2:2-4)

We see Stephen addressing Isaiah 66:1, whilst preaching on the subject of the tabernacle in Acts 7:44-50, saying, “Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen. Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David; Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob. But Solomon built him an house. Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? Hath not my hand made all these things? Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God” (Acts 7:47-56).

Here, Stephen’s natural eyes were supernaturally opened to view the Lord’s current kingly reign over His enemies upon the heavenly throne from the right hand of majesty on high. Thus confirming, once again, the present reality of Christ’s glorious reign in glory – heaven being His throne and earth being His footstool.

Stephen was thus able to testify to the marvelous kingly fulfilment of our two prophetic Old Testament prophecies. Confirming, once again, the present reality of Christ’s glorious reign over His enemies in glory – heaven being His throne and earth being His footstool.

Stephen lost his life for identifying the Old Testament “tabernacle of witness” with Christ and the conversion of the Gentiles. He then goes on to explain that God’s tabernacle today is not physical but spiritual (v 48) and then quotes Isaiah 66:1 to show the enormity of Christ’s rule today having sat down at the right hand of majesty on high (vv 49, 55-56). Stephen showed that God’s temple today is not physical, but spiritual. Also, the Messianic reign is shown to be heavenly and not earthly: “Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool.” Plainly, earth is not the location of God’s throne – heaven is. Albeit, earth is the place of His footstool not anywhere else. Do Premils not see this? This reading confirms that this reign is active an ongoing since the resurrection/ascension. Stephen was seeing this kingly rule in this current intra-Advent period.

Christ is shown in the New Testament to be the fulfilment to all these Messianic prophecies. What is more, He is shown to be currently exercising Davidic key/authority upon high over David’s house. John says in Revelation 3:7, “These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath (present active particle) the key (or authority) of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.”

This passage reinforces the fact that Christ is exercising His Davidic kingship over mankind now. The Old Testament kings were mere types of the one true King. He didn’t come to replicate the imperfect shadow and type, He came to introduce the true and eternal kingship of Israel.

Key in Scripture symbolically represents authority. Here it specifically relates to the position of Christ after He rose from the dead and notably linked to His Davidic (Messianic) power. Adam Clark confirms “the key of David is the regal right or authority of David.” Revelation 3:7 describes how Christ now exercises His Davidic kingship. The phrase “that hath” is translated from the Greek word echo is a primary verb meaning “to hold.” It is used in the present active particle, proving that this is an ongoing present authority. Christ is shown here to be ruling now in Davidic power on David’s throne.

The powerful language that accompanies the mention of Christ holding the key of David proves that this is referring to His majestic power and might. It says, “he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.” This speaks of spiritual power. The key allows Christ to sovereignly open and shut in a way that no man can thwart or override.

We can see from the grammatical tense that this is written in the present active particle tense, which proves this is happening now.

The New Testament presents the reign of Judah’s true king repeatedly as a present reality and shows Christ to be currently fulfilling it in heaven.

We find this in Revelation 5:1-6, where we learn, “And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain.”

When Scripture speaks of Christ sitting on David’s throne it is referring to the appearance and victory of Israel’s true and final king. Christ is shown in this figurative depiction fulfilling His Davidic kingship. The statement “the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed” simply tells us that the Lord Jesus Christ (the much-anticipated Davidic Messiah) has finally succeeded in His mission having resoundingly conquered every enemy through the resurrection and is now reigning now as Judah’s king. David’s greater Son has finally “prevailed.”

The word “prevailed” here is nikao meaning to conquer, overcome, prevail, or to get the victory. This is exactly what “the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David” did. This is an existing reality. We are not waiting for some future age for the son of David to prevail; He already victoriously secured a victory over every enemy by His resurrection and has now assumed the throne of David reigning over the Israel of God.

It was through the tribe of Judah that the Israelite royal linage functioned. It was here that the kingship or leadership was given (Genesis 49:9-10). Judah went by the standard of a lion. Jesus Christ was born through the linage of Judah (Matthew 1:1-2, Hebrews 7:14) and it is He that has the strength/power to deal with the enemies of His people. The connotation involved in the wording and symbolism contained in Revelation 5:5 in regard to “the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David” confirms Christ’s present Davidic kingship or rulership.

 

[Taken]

You need to fix your HTML.

Why, which document are you having an issue with?

Well, this above is the complete opposite to what the early Chiliast believed. They held to a perfect new earth, like Amils.

Seems they were wrong. Nations of mortals are not occupying a perfect new earth.

 

[WPM]

Why, which document are you having an issue with?



Seems they were wrong. Nations of mortals are not occupying a perfect new earth.

The one I quoted.

 

[Truther]

Do you believe there will be mortals on your millennial earth?
Do you believe there will be sin on your millennial earth?
Do you believe there will be sinners on your millennial earth?
Do you believe there will be sickness on your millennial earth?
Do you believe there will be decay on your millennial earth?
Do you believe there will be corruption on your millennial earth?
Do you believe there will be rebellion on your millennial earth?

Yes.

Yes.

Only those that transgress and death is possible still.

Yes.

It will be subdued by the reigning saints.

At the end when satan is loosed.

Also...Living waters will proceed from Jesus' throne in Jerusalem to start the healing process of the polluted earth.

 

[Taken]

The one I quoted.

Not interested in your deflection.

 

[WPM]

Yes.

Yes.

Only those that transgress and death is possible still.

Yes.

It will be subdued by the reigning saints.

At the end when satan is loosed.

Also...Living waters will proceed from Jesus' throne in Jerusalem to start the healing process of the polluted earth.

How does the wicked survive the return of Christ?

The Premil millennium is a disaster. It is just a rerun of our age. Rather than the Premil new earth being a progressively glorious age (as they like to portray), it regressively degenerates into turmoil, tears and tragedy. Rather than the wicked and wickedness being subjugated, the opposite occurs – they prosper and increase.

 

[WPM]

Not interested in your deflection.

No deflection. I was trying to help you. But you obviously do not want it.

 

[Truther]

How does the wicked survive the return of Christ?

The Premil millennium is a disaster. It is just a rerun of our age. Rather than the Premil new earth being a progressively glorious age (as they like to portray), it regressively degenerates into turmoil, tears and tragedy. Rather than the wicked and wickedness being subjugated, the opposite occurs – they prosper and increase.

The wicked are sent straight to hell with the antichrist and the false prophet at the return of Christ.

The sheep will be divided from the goats by Jesus per Matt 25.

 

[WPM]

The wicked are sent straight to hell with the antichrist and the false prophet at the return of Christ.

The sheep will be divided from the goats by Jesus per Matt 25.

Surely the goats are the wicked? Who do you think the goats are?

 

[Truther]

Surely the goats are the wicked? Who do you think the goats are?

The goats are those that persecuted Israel at the Ezekiel 38/Zech 14 war. They also could be others.

 

[Philip James]

Then, relegate scholarship, and early church father's concepts and similar to......"that's interesting" "but what does Paul Teach".

The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?

Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.

St. Therese, pray for us!

Pax et Bonum

 

[WPM]

The goats are those that persecuted Israel at the Ezekiel 38/Zech 14 war. They also could be others.

That is your private interpretation. The Bible does not say that. The terms “the sheep,” (vv 32-33) “them on his right hand,” (v34) “ye blessed” (v 34) and “the righteous” (vv 37 & 46) are seen to be synonymous in this parable. The wicked on the other hand are simply deemed “the goats” (vv 33 & 34), “them on the left hand” (v 41) or “ye cursed” (v 41).

 

[Taken]

No deflection. I was trying to help you. But you obviously do not want it.

If I require your help, I will ask.
Presently your posts are convoluted.