The beliefs of the early Chiliasts were the antithesis of modern Premil

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covenantee

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You showed me that every Jew was saved in Israel and Judah and they ceased to witness "know the Lord" to each other in Acts 2?

All Preterists teach that or just you?
Confirmed. You are having a comprehension problem. Typical dispensational affliction.

Explain how the three thousand souls that gladly received his word was every Jew in Israel.

Acts 2:41
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
 

WPM

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Exactly when in history was Ezekiel 45-46 fulfilled?

Who was the prince?

Ezekiel 40-48 is a detailed conditional vision; it was not some distant prophecy, as some suggest. The prophet Ezekiel was basically taken up in the Spirit and given a revelation of better things than that which prevailed when he received it.

In the vision Ezekiel was shown an arrangement that was greater than existed around him. Ezekiel 43:2-5 records, “behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice was like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory. And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face. And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east. So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house.”

Here we see the careful connection between the visions and Ezekiel being taken up in the Spirit. The prophet is supernaturally carried into situations that clearly did not exist at that time. They were revealed to him. In reality, the temple was in ruin and the glory of the Lord had departed from the house of God. Notwithstanding, in the visions, “the glory of the LORD came into the house.” Ezekiel was so overwhelmed by what he saw in the Spirit that as a result he “fell upon” his “face.”

Israel in Ezekiel’s day had sunk into deep idolatry and awful iniquity. God exposed the extent of the evil that existed within the camp in Ezekiel 43:8, saying, “they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.” Notwithstanding, God, as is His custom, reached out in His grace, mercy and love to them, exhorting them to turn from their wicked ways. He promised that He would bless them if they obeyed His voice.

He commanded them (in v 9): “Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.”

God gave definite and unambiguous instructions to Israel regarding how they could regain the blessing of God. With God there is always the promise accompanied by the conditions. Just because God offers a blessing does not mean the outcome is a foregone conclusion. The realisation would be determined by the response. If Israel obeyed what God asked, the blessing would be released, if they didn’t it would be withheld.

Ezekiel 43:10 goes on to outline the gist and purpose of the vision of the temple, saying, “Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.”

Clearly God was making a genuine offer to Israel if they would only repent. Sadly, they didn't and they never entered into the reality of that offer. God essentially shows Israel a picture of what could be if they would only turn from their sin and rebellion. It was a promise of better things if only they would submit to God’s demands. It involved an improved arrangement to what existed at the time of the proposal. It was essentially a mirror that God set up in Ezekiel’s day to allow Israel to see how far (even in that day) they fell short of the old covenant requirements. It was to let Israel compare themselves and their practices against this vision of what God desired for them. God has always instructed Israel in the ideal yet they always fell short. Israel usually failed to adhere to God's conditions. In this situation God’s gracious provision did not materialise.

God simply wanted Israel to “be ashamed of their iniquities.” This was nothing new; in fact, that has always been God’s desire for His people. This was a promise that was built upon righteous conditions. If they would be repentant and humble themselves then they would experience the superior splendour of this new temple.

Ezekiel 43:11 continues, “And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.”

This vision was God’s blueprint for Israel in Ezekiel’s day. It was a design that contained important religious demands and was qualified with definite spiritual provisos. Israel was simply required to obey God’s conditions. The “ordinances,” “forms” and “laws” mentioned were to be kept by Israel in Ezekiel’s day. The fact that he commanded the Israelites of his day to “do them” showed that this wasn’t some distant prophecy after the new covenant period that had no direct relevance to them in that day.

The promise/vision here was intended to stir the people to righteousness in that generation. If they submitted, if they gave themselves to obedience and righteousness, the Lord would have them build a temple for His glory in that day. Again, we can see this is a conditional promise, which Israel had to fulfil before it would come to pass. We can see that it was particular to the Jews in Ezekiel's day. It was applicable to the nation in Ezekiel’s day and depicted how God wanted Israel to live under the old covenant. This was a standard that Israel was supposed to abide by.
 

WPM

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You showed me that every Jew was saved in Israel and Judah and they ceased to witness "know the Lord" to each other in Acts 2?

All Preterists teach that or just you?

I think 3 lines with an obligatory insult is about your standard reply. Amils prefer digging deep into the text. They prefer interpreting Scripture with Scripture.
 
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WPM

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Ezekiel 45 is past tense? It already happened? When in history, please? Thanks.

Now think hard....was the passover lamb slain at the feast of the Jews a memorial of something that happened or a celebration of something yet to happen?

If you guessed the former, you are right. The passover commanded to the Jews is a memorial of an event that happened.

So, you now understand that a slain lamb is a memorial sacrifice. The death angel was reminded of the slain lamb of God and passed over the Jews' homes.

Also, Jesus said "do this in memory of me" speaking of the Christian passsover feast in 1 Cor 11.

The death of Jesus must be remembered at all costs.

The Millennial sacrifices will do exactly that in Ezekial 45-46.

  1. Where does it state in Ezekiel that these sacrifices are future?
  2. Where does it mention in Ezekiel some future millennium?
  3. Where does it say in Ezekiel that these are "memorial"?
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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No, Heb 8 is quoting Jer 31 as a future prophecy of national Israel and Hebrews 10:15-17 is speaking to the audience of the book, inclusion into the specific, small part.

Anyone that teaches the entire promise of Jer 31/Heb 8 is for the church in some weird spiritual way is a replacement theologist.
That prophecy undeniably is about the new covenant. You are revealing your ignorance of the new covenant here. Do you somehow not know that the new covenant was established by the blood of Christ long ago?

Luke 22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

2 Corinthians 3:4 Such confidence we have through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

How can you try to say that the new covenant has to do with the future when it was already established long ago by the blood of Christ? What is your excuse for being so ignorant about the new covenant?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Exactly when in history was Ezekiel 45-46 fulfilled?

Who was the prince?
Do you have trouble with reading comprehension? Read my post again. I said the prophecy is conditional and quoted Ezekiel 43:10-11 to back that up. Since I'm saying it was conditional, I'm not saying it was ever fulfilled or ever will be. The conditions of the Israelites of long ago being required to repent wasn't met.

Why did you not address anything I said in my post? Are you afraid to do that? Are you afraid to talk about your belief in future animal sacrifices for the atonement of sins which would be a huge insult to the "once for all" sacrifice that Christ made for the atonement of sins long ago?
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Did God witness this or not?....


Psalm 22 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.

3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.

4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.

5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.

6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,

8 He trusted on the Lord that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.

10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.

12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.

13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.

14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
Address what I said or don't talk to me. It's up to you. This passage does not address what I said. Jesus lived in the realm of time and was slain in the realm of time almost 2,000 years ago and not from the foundation of the world. This passage doesn't say otherwise.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Ezekiel 45-46.
For someone calling himself "Truther" you seem to have some trouble being honest.

You had said this:

Truther said:
Now, the sacrifices depicted to be reinstated in the future BY GOD, are a continuing memorial of the death of Jesus.
I asked where this is taught in scripture and then you responded with "Ezekiel 45-46". Where in Ezekiel 45-46 does it refer to sacrifices done in "memorial of the death of Jesus"?

Do you see that described here:

15 Also one sheep is to be taken from every flock of two hundred from the well-watered pastures of Israel. These will be used for the grain offerings, burnt offerings and fellowship offerings to make atonement for the people, declares the Sovereign Lord. 16 All the people of the land will be required to give this special offering to the prince in Israel. 17 It will be the duty of the prince to provide the burnt offerings, grain offerings and drink offerings at the festivals, the New Moons and the Sabbaths—at all the appointed festivals of Israel. He will provide the sin offerings, grain offerings, burnt offerings and fellowship offerings to make atonement for the Israelites.

This does not say what you're saying that it says. It does not say the sacrifices would be done in memorial of the death of Jesus, but rather says they would be done "to make atonement for the Israelites". So, why are you not being truthful about what their purpose would be?
 
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Heart2Soul

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No such thing. No difference between Jew, Gentile, Greek..all one in Christ = Christian. Saying Hebrew Christian is putting back up the wall that was broken down. We are grafted into the olive tree that already stood, not making 2 trees: 1 Hebrew and 1 formerly Gentile.
Now here is sound wisdom and sound doctrine spoken.
God Bless and Thank You
 
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Truther

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No, they didn't. They could watch the entertainment as Paul thrashed the Jewish saints who tried to exhume the old covenant carcass, as dispens do today.

Thanks for the guffaw.
You think the epistles were for "certain" or "special" saints, and not all of them.

You have no business reading or applying them because they are not directed to you(per preterist ideology).
 

Truther

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Confirmed. You are having a comprehension problem. Typical dispensational affliction.

Explain how the three thousand souls that gladly received his word was every Jew in Israel.

Acts 2:41
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
You mean this...

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Really means this?...


34 And they shall teach DELETE every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for 3000 souls shall know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
 

Truther

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Ezekiel 40-48 is a detailed conditional vision; it was not some distant prophecy, as some suggest. The prophet Ezekiel was basically taken up in the Spirit and given a revelation of better things than that which prevailed when he received it.

In the vision Ezekiel was shown an arrangement that was greater than existed around him. Ezekiel 43:2-5 records, “behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice was like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory. And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face. And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east. So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house.”

Here we see the careful connection between the visions and Ezekiel being taken up in the Spirit. The prophet is supernaturally carried into situations that clearly did not exist at that time. They were revealed to him. In reality, the temple was in ruin and the glory of the Lord had departed from the house of God. Notwithstanding, in the visions, “the glory of the LORD came into the house.” Ezekiel was so overwhelmed by what he saw in the Spirit that as a result he “fell upon” his “face.”

Israel in Ezekiel’s day had sunk into deep idolatry and awful iniquity. God exposed the extent of the evil that existed within the camp in Ezekiel 43:8, saying, “they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.” Notwithstanding, God, as is His custom, reached out in His grace, mercy and love to them, exhorting them to turn from their wicked ways. He promised that He would bless them if they obeyed His voice.

He commanded them (in v 9): “Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.”

God gave definite and unambiguous instructions to Israel regarding how they could regain the blessing of God. With God there is always the promise accompanied by the conditions. Just because God offers a blessing does not mean the outcome is a foregone conclusion. The realisation would be determined by the response. If Israel obeyed what God asked, the blessing would be released, if they didn’t it would be withheld.

Ezekiel 43:10 goes on to outline the gist and purpose of the vision of the temple, saying, “Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.”

Clearly God was making a genuine offer to Israel if they would only repent. Sadly, they didn't and they never entered into the reality of that offer. God essentially shows Israel a picture of what could be if they would only turn from their sin and rebellion. It was a promise of better things if only they would submit to God’s demands. It involved an improved arrangement to what existed at the time of the proposal. It was essentially a mirror that God set up in Ezekiel’s day to allow Israel to see how far (even in that day) they fell short of the old covenant requirements. It was to let Israel compare themselves and their practices against this vision of what God desired for them. God has always instructed Israel in the ideal yet they always fell short. Israel usually failed to adhere to God's conditions. In this situation God’s gracious provision did not materialise.

God simply wanted Israel to “be ashamed of their iniquities.” This was nothing new; in fact, that has always been God’s desire for His people. This was a promise that was built upon righteous conditions. If they would be repentant and humble themselves then they would experience the superior splendour of this new temple.

Ezekiel 43:11 continues, “And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.”

This vision was God’s blueprint for Israel in Ezekiel’s day. It was a design that contained important religious demands and was qualified with definite spiritual provisos. Israel was simply required to obey God’s conditions. The “ordinances,” “forms” and “laws” mentioned were to be kept by Israel in Ezekiel’s day. The fact that he commanded the Israelites of his day to “do them” showed that this wasn’t some distant prophecy after the new covenant period that had no direct relevance to them in that day.

The promise/vision here was intended to stir the people to righteousness in that generation. If they submitted, if they gave themselves to obedience and righteousness, the Lord would have them build a temple for His glory in that day. Again, we can see this is a conditional promise, which Israel had to fulfil before it would come to pass. We can see that it was particular to the Jews in Ezekiel's day. It was applicable to the nation in Ezekiel’s day and depicted how God wanted Israel to live under the old covenant. This was a standard that Israel was supposed to abide by.
Okay, all the detail of Ezekiel 45-46 was fake.

Now, who was the fake prince it speaks of?
 

Truther

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I think 3 lines with an obligatory insult is about your standard reply. Amils prefer digging deep into the text. They prefer interpreting Scripture with Scripture.
The scripture needs to be dug deeper?

Unhappy with it's first glance?

Need mass commentary to soothe your presuppositions?

It must mean something else?

That describes preterists to the t.
 

Truther

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  1. Where does it state in Ezekiel that these sacrifices are future?
  2. Where does it mention in Ezekiel some future millennium?
  3. Where does it say in Ezekiel that these are "memorial"?
Exekiel 37 to the end of the book has not happened yet.

This equates to future....

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

28 And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.


....which you preterists despise.
 

Truther

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Do you have trouble with reading comprehension? Read my post again. I said the prophecy is conditional and quoted Ezekiel 43:10-11 to back that up. Since I'm saying it was conditional, I'm not saying it was ever fulfilled or ever will be. The conditions of the Israelites of long ago being required to repent wasn't met.

Why did you not address anything I said in my post? Are you afraid to do that? Are you afraid to talk about your belief in future animal sacrifices for the atonement of sins which would be a huge insult to the "once for all" sacrifice that Christ made for the atonement of sins long ago?
Who is the prince in Ezeliel 45 and 46???
 

Truther

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That prophecy undeniably is about the new covenant. You are revealing your ignorance of the new covenant here. Do you somehow not know that the new covenant was established by the blood of Christ long ago?

Luke 22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

2 Corinthians 3:4 Such confidence we have through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

How can you try to say that the new covenant has to do with the future when it was already established long ago by the blood of Christ? What is your excuse for being so ignorant about the new covenant?
Correct, Hebrews 8 is about the new covenant to future ISRAEL/JUDAH, not you or I.

Hebrews 10:15-17 is our pre-inclusion.

that is all we get until the return of Christ.

And all this time you thought God abandoned His covenant to the fathers concerning their descendants to posess the land and gave it to the NT church.

The disciples knew better than that, preterist....


6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know
the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.


....you see preterist, it is not for you to know either.
 

Truther

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Address what I said or don't talk to me. It's up to you. This passage does not address what I said. Jesus lived in the realm of time and was slain in the realm of time almost 2,000 years ago and not from the foundation of the world. This passage doesn't say otherwise.
Did Psalm 22 already happen in God's eyes or did God "prophecy" this intricate detail?

Was Jesus quoting Psalm 22 while on the cross or was Psalm 22 quoting Jesus?
 

Truther

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For someone calling himself "Truther" you seem to have some trouble being honest.

You had said this:

I asked where this is taught in scripture and then you responded with "Ezekiel 45-46". Where in Ezekiel 45-46 does it refer to sacrifices done in "memorial of the death of Jesus"?

Do you see that described here:

15 Also one sheep is to be taken from every flock of two hundred from the well-watered pastures of Israel. These will be used for the grain offerings, burnt offerings and fellowship offerings to make atonement for the people, declares the Sovereign Lord. 16 All the people of the land will be required to give this special offering to the prince in Israel. 17 It will be the duty of the prince to provide the burnt offerings, grain offerings and drink offerings at the festivals, the New Moons and the Sabbaths—at all the appointed festivals of Israel. He will provide the sin offerings, grain offerings, burnt offerings and fellowship offerings to make atonement for the Israelites.

This does not say what you're saying that it says. It does not say the sacrifices would be done in memorial of the death of Jesus, but rather says they would be done "to make atonement for the Israelites". So, why are you not being truthful about what their purpose would be?
There is 2 positions only.

Pick one.

The sacrifices take away sins or the sacrifices are a memorial to God.

There is no other answer to the purposes of sacrifices.

Question: did Abel's sacrifice remind God of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world per grace or did they take away his sins?
 
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