The Bible: One of the Believer's Biggest Problems

[Curtis]

Yet, the book is very ambiguous, at times contradictory, and downright confusing.

There are no contradictions in the Bible, just ignorance OF the Bible.

 

[Jim B]

There are no contradictions in the Bible, just ignorance OF the Bible.

Would you explain what you mean? If there were no contradictions in the Bible then everyone would agree about what it says. Of course those contradictions are in our minds, since our understanding isn't perfect. But they exist.

For example, the Jews followed the Mosaic law, yet they sinned.

 

[Curtis]

Would you explain what you mean? If there were no contradictions in the Bible then everyone would agree about what it says. Of course those contradictions are in our minds, since our understanding isn't perfect. But they exist.

For example, the Jews followed the Mosaic law, yet they sinned.

How in the world do you think that’s a contradiction?

When God gave them the law, He said they would get either a blessing or cursing, depending on if they obeyed the law or not.

They had a choice, and kept making the wrong choice. That’s not a contradiction.

God said to them:

Deu 30:15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.

Deu 30:16 If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.

Deu 30:17 But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,

Deu 30:18 I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,

Deu 30:20 loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.”

Later God told this to Moses:

Deu 31:16 And the LORD said to Moses, “Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers. Then this people will rise and whore after the foreign gods among them in the land that they are entering, and they will forsake me and break my covenant that I have made with them.

Deu 31:17 Then my anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them and hide my face from them, and they will be devoured. And many evils and troubles will come upon them, so that they will say in that day, ‘Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?’

Deu 31:18 And I will surely hide my face in that day because of all the evil that they have done, because they have turned to other gods.

 

[Abigail]

The Bible presents a very broad general narrative many believe and have built varying beliefs systems around. Yet, the book is very ambiguous, at times contradictory, and downright confusing regarding numerous religious subjects that would appear to be of upmost importance. Such ambiguity appears to clearly demonstrate that the writings are the musings of men, however, many still attribute its contents to a deity figure. Why?!

Let me point out just a few of the issues of contention below:

1. The plan of salvation
- By grace thru faith alone (Romans 10:9-10)?
- Repentance and baptism (Acts 2:38)?
- is baptism immersion?
- is baptism simply sprinkling

2. The role of the church vs. Sola Scriptura

3. Should any part of the OT Law be kept? (Matthew 5:18)

4. Apostolic succession and the Papacy (Matthew 16:18)

5. Dispensationalism vs. Amillennialism vs. Preterism
- with each able to use scripture in some form or fashion to support what they promote

These are but a few internal issues a couple thousand years have not been able to provide clarify on and there are many others. Again, with such doubletalk and ambiguity, WHY Oh WHY would it not be obvious that human authorship is all over the pages. The Bible is just so..................... human

Brave post.
I wonder, why would an Agnostic touch on this subject? Especially presuming to inform Christians in their own community.

 

[amigo de christo]

There are no contradictions in the Bible, just ignorance OF the Bible.

Yep .

 

[amigo de christo]

How in the world do you think that’s a contradiction?

When God gave them the law, He said they would get either a blessing or cursing, depending on if they obeyed the law or not.

They had a choice, and kept making the wrong choice. That’s not a contradiction.

God said to them:

Deu 30:15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.

Deu 30:16 If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.

Deu 30:17 But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,

Deu 30:18 I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,

Deu 30:20 loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.”

Later God told this to Moses:

Deu 31:16 And the LORD said to Moses, “Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers. Then this people will rise and whore after the foreign gods among them in the land that they are entering, and they will forsake me and break my covenant that I have made with them.

Deu 31:17 Then my anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them and hide my face from them, and they will be devoured. And many evils and troubles will come upon them, so that they will say in that day, ‘Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?’

Deu 31:18 And I will surely hide my face in that day because of all the evil that they have done, because they have turned to other gods.

Exactly . Wonderful point my friend .

 

[Berserk]

In post #75 I outlined a clear contradiction in Luke's resurrection narrative and have given fundamentalists about a week to respond. As expected, when confronted with that contradiction, the fundamentalists have frozen like Bambi in the headlights because they have no answer! So kindly abandon your mindless pontifications claiming the Truth OT has no legitimate point for discussion.

 

[Curtis]

I think your question is not correctly written.
Is that because you could not cut and paste it from someone else's website, where you are getting all your other posts as well?
Seems so....and in that case.. I'll adjust your malformed question for you and then i'll answer it..

Here we go..

"why do the 4 Gospel's, contain differences", asks the self anointed bible critic ?

Let me explain that to you readers, and to you also Berserk...and then you'll have learned something useful today.


Look closely.. and see for yourself....

Lets say that .....You and I and Your mother and a stranger, are standing on a street corner, in Israel, yesterday.
We were waiting for the RED LIGHT to stop all traffic, so that we can cross the street safely to the other side.
Out of nowhere, !!!! a car runs the red light and hits and smashes into an oncoming car that is turning left.
We , the 4 of us, are 27 ft away, about 9 meters, and we all see this accident, with our eyes wide open... as it happened at NOON, and its a sunny blue sky day.

Then.......IN the next Hour, we, each of us, gives the Policeman our eyewitness account, regarding what we all saw... as we stood there together.

Im first, and you are last to give your deposition, Berserk.

At the station, later, the COP is writing up the final report, and he notices the usual......and that is......4 people saw the same accident, the same, event, yet, each of us listed our own personal details, that WE SAW, as compared to the other 3.

Why is that, Berserk?......Reader ????
Its because 4 eyewitness accounts are by 4 different people and each will have their own memory of it, yet all are telling the facts and the truth.

And the Gospels, are 4 accounts, which is why they are telling the same event, the same story, but, with slightly different DETAILS as evidenced by each of the 4.

See, this is how you KNOW its true......as if, all the accounts given by 4 different people...said the same exact thing, then that would not be 4, that would only be 1.. So, the Gospels do tell the same event, eyewitness accounts,> 4<...but each has a different perspective, as this has to be so, ..READER... as its 4 different people explaining the same event.

The four gospel writers weren’t lined up n a row at the tomb with pen in hand at the same time, either.

People were coming and going at the tomb, thus different observers will see different people at different times, that’s just common sense, which’s my answer to Berserk.

I’ve used the wreck on the highway analogy before, too.

If two cars have a wreck, different people will be driving by in the long line of backed up traffic, and they will all have different accounts - some will go by right after the wreck and only see two wrecked cars, others will also see one or more police cars, as they come and go, while others see a police car and an ambulance, while some will see no ambulance with the police car, but see a tow truck on the scene, BECAUSE they weren’t all lined up together at the same instant in time.

As J Warner Wallace the cold case homicide detective says, you want every witness to a crime to tell it differently, because that’s common and expected - it’s when they have the identical story that tells him they colluded together and rehearsed their testimony.

Berserk doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

 

[ScottA]

The Bible presents a very broad general narrative many believe and have built varying beliefs systems around. Yet, the book is very ambiguous, at times contradictory, and downright confusing regarding numerous religious subjects that would appear to be of upmost importance. Such ambiguity appears to clearly demonstrate that the writings are the musings of men, however, many still attribute its contents to a deity figure. Why?!

Let me point out just a few of the issues of contention below:

1. The plan of salvation
- By grace thru faith alone (Romans 10:9-10)?
- Repentance and baptism (Acts 2:38)?
- is baptism immersion?
- is baptism simply sprinkling

2. The role of the church vs. Sola Scriptura

3. Should any part of the OT Law be kept? (Matthew 5:18)

4. Apostolic succession and the Papacy (Matthew 16:18)

5. Dispensationalism vs. Amillennialism vs. Preterism
- with each able to use scripture in some form or fashion to support what they promote

These are but a few internal issues a couple thousand years have not been able to provide clarify on and there are many others. Again, with such doubletalk and ambiguity, WHY Oh WHY would it not be obvious that human authorship is all over the pages. The Bible is just so..................... human

The Bible actually explains all these issues.

But what you have overlooked is that what you have describes... is actually intentional, and is actually the plan. Here, connect the dots:

• "Seeing many things, but you do not observe; Opening the ears, but he does not hear.”

• Then "For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little.”

• And "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

• And finally, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again (of the spirit of God), he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

• Because, "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God."

Which is God's way of eliminating evil and insuring the future is clear of it, and perfect for eternity. He is cleaning house....which, is hard to understand as not being cruel, or why He didn't just snap His fingers--but it is not, and He has. Which I might have to explain. But anything you consider "foolishness" can never be explained--because that would mean you have already refused it. But if you really want to know the truth...it is available, just not to those who are against it. That's the plan.

 

[Jim B]

In post #75 I outlined a clear contradiction in Luke's resurrection narrative and have given fundamentalists about a week to respond. As expected, when confronted with that contradiction, the fundamentalists have frozen like Bambi in the headlights because they have no answer! So kindly abandon your mindless pontifications claiming the Truth OT has no legitimate point for discussion.

It's really unfortunate that you don't understand that the Bible is a spiritual book. Regarding the Gospels, they are not "Western journalism" but a spiritually true rendition of the life of Jesus Christ. If you don't understand that then your mind is hindered and needs to be freed.

 

[marksman]

The Bible presents a very broad general narrative many believe and have built varying beliefs systems around. Yet, the book is very ambiguous, at times contradictory, and downright confusing regarding numerous religious subjects that would appear to be of upmost importance. Such ambiguity appears to clearly demonstrate that the writings are the musings of men, however, many still attribute its contents to a deity figure. Why?!

Let me point out just a few of the issues of contention below:

1. The plan of salvation
- By grace thru faith alone (Romans 10:9-10)?
- Repentance and baptism (Acts 2:38)?
- is baptism immersion?
- is baptism simply sprinkling

2. The role of the church vs. Sola Scriptura

3. Should any part of the OT Law be kept? (Matthew 5:18)

4. Apostolic succession and the Papacy (Matthew 16:18)

5. Dispensationalism vs. Amillennialism vs. Preterism
- with each able to use scripture in some form or fashion to support what they promote

These are but a few internal issues a couple thousand years have not been able to provide clarify on and there are many others. Again, with such doubletalk and ambiguity, WHY Oh WHY would it not be obvious that human authorship is all over the pages. The Bible is just so..................... human

I am always reminded of the verse that says the natural man cannot discern the things of the Spirit et.al. One can delve into scripture and try and make sense of it and try and work it out, but unless that is done spiritually by the leading and teaching of the holy spirit, no one will discern what God is saying through Scripture. You may think you discern but that is not possible.

As the verse says the natural man cannot discern the things of the Spirit and anyone who tries to do that will not succeed as there is no this or that. I don't care how learned a person is the natural CANNOT discern the things of the spirit.

I will specifically address the comment "why oh why would it not be obvious that human authorship is all over the pages. The Bible is just so..................... human?

First, when you take a verse out of context it is very easy to put the wrong meaning on it. Proof texting which is what that is is the worst form of teaching because you can make the verse say anything you want it to say.

Second when you are trying to discern the things of the Spirit with the carnal mind, again you can make the scripture say anything you want it to say because your source of evidence is the natural mind.....which cannot discern the things of the Spirit.

Third, the comment I have alluded to has the making of a natural man trying to understand the things of the Spirit. If you try hard enough you can make anything in scripture say what you want it to say. This is where the spiritual mind parts company with the carnal mind. When I read scripture I don't say or ask what is the problem. I ask, what are you saying here, Lord?" That blocks out the carnal and allows the spiritual to speak into the situation because I did not get my inspiration from what I thought. I got it from what the Holy Spirit said. That is so important as the scripture tells us that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. Not the carnal mind, Not the church. Not the Bible. No, the source of all truth is the Holy Spirit so if you are not a great fan of his, you are behind the eight ball.

 

[Enoch111]

Berserk doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

He is also a Catholic apologist but does not come right out and say he is a Roman Catholic.

 

[Enoch111]

For example, the Jews followed the Mosaic law, yet they sinned.

How is that a contradiction? As as matter of fact the Jews were generally disobedient to God. But the Law was given by God through Moses and Moses was obedient (except for one instance). And while Moses was up on Mount Sinai receiving the tablets of stone, the Israelites were down below worshipping a golden calf!

There are NO contradictions in the Bible for the simple reason that God does not -- and cannot -- contradict Himself.

 

[Jim B]

How is that a contradiction? As as matter of fact the Jews were generally disobedient to God. But the Law was given by God through Moses and Moses was obedient (except for one instance). And while Moses was up on Mount Sinai receiving the tablets of stone, the Israelites were down below worshipping a golden calf!

There are NO contradictions in the Bible for the simple reason that God does not -- and cannot -- contradict Himself.

There are contradictions in the Bible. It is not a cookbook. I believe that the contradictions are there because God wants us to look deeply into Scripture, bypassing our natural minds and being taught by the Holy Spirit.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

There are contradictions in the Bible.

IF there are, then we are all in BIG Trouble, as it cannot be trusted. Men make the
seeming contradictions by disobeying God's Command Of "How" to study It!:

"Study to shew thyself Approved Unto God, a workman that needeth not
to be ashamed, Rightly Dividing The Word Of Truth!" (2Timothy_2:15) ie:

Example of "contradiction": "faith without works is dead" vs:

"GRACE Through faith, Apart from all works" is for salvation? Solution?:

Rightly Divided – "VERY Brief" Intro!

"Prophecy/Law" {earthly} Christ And The TWELVE, gospel of the kingdom,
ISRAEL prominent! {past/future}

"faith without works is dead"

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

"Mystery/GRACE!" {Heavenly!} Gospel Of GRACE, Jew And Gentile "Equal!"
{Current, Today!} for The Body Of CHRIST!

"Salvation Apart from all works"

CHRIST, And ONE “apostle TO THE GENTILES, our Pattern to follow!”
(Romans 11:13; 1 Timothy 1:16 KJB!)

Confusion reigns with tradition TRYING to "follow 13 apostleS doctrineS"
MIXING them all up! Amen?

Much More Contradiction/Confusion Solutions are here:

Distinctions of Prophecy vs MYSTERY!

GRACE And Peace...

 

[Jim B]

IF there are, then we are all in BIG Trouble, as it cannot be trusted. Men make the
seeming contradictions by disobeying God's Command Of "How" to study It!:

"Study to shew thyself Approved Unto God, a workman that needeth not
to be ashamed, Rightly Dividing The Word Of Truth!" (2Timothy_2:15) ie:

Example of "contradiction": "faith without works is dead" vs:

"GRACE Through faith, Apart from all works" is for salvation? Solution?:

Rightly Divided – "VERY Brief" Intro!

"Prophecy/Law" {earthly} Christ And The TWELVE, gospel of the kingdom,
ISRAEL prominent! {past/future}

"faith without works is dead"

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

"Mystery/GRACE!" {Heavenly!} Gospel Of GRACE, Jew And Gentile "Equal!"
{Current, Today!} for The Body Of CHRIST!

"Salvation Apart from all works"

CHRIST, And ONE “apostle TO THE GENTILES, our Pattern to follow!”
(Romans 11:13; 1 Timothy 1:16 KJB!)

Confusion reigns with tradition TRYING to "follow 13 apostleS doctrineS"
MIXING them all up! Amen?

Much More Contradiction/Confusion Solutions are here:

Distinctions of Prophecy vs MYSTERY!

GRACE And Peace...

I stopped reading at "Study to shew thyself Approved Unto God, a workman that needeth not
to be ashamed, Rightly Dividing The Word Of Truth!" (2Timothy_2:15)

This has nothing to do with the modern word "study". The verse in modern English is translated "Make every effort to present yourself before God as a proven worker who does not need to be ashamed, teaching the message of truth accurately."

If you don't think there are contradictions in the Bible then you're not reading it carefully. For example, when did Jesus enter Jerusalem and go after the animal vendors and money changers? It's in the beginning of John's gospel, in the middle of Mark's gospel, and towards the end of Matthew's gospel. So, when did Jesus actually enter the temple?

For a clearer understanding try a better translation than the King James version for a start. I suggest the NIV.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

I suggest the NIV.

NEVER! Rupert Murdoch will NEVER get a $1 from me for an NIV! NEVER!!
He's the owner of Zondervan/Harper Collins publishing AND is Also head of
a "pornography" empire! God says pornography IS SIN! So, Again = NEVER!!
EVER!!!

 

[Jim B]

NEVER! Rupert Murdoch will NEVER get a $1 from me for an NIV! NEVER!!
He's the owner of Zondervan/Harper Collins publishing AND is Also head of
a "pornography" empire! God says pornography IS SIN! So, Again = NEVER!!
EVER!!!

How about the NET then? That's the one that I use more than others. I also use the NRSV. Any of the modern translations are easier to understand than the KJV.

BTW, Murdoch owning Zondervan means he is instrumental in publishing the most popular version of God's Word. God can use whomever He wants!

 

[theefaith]

THIS (salvation) is the ONLY issue on your list of “upmost importance”.
Salvation is “by grace through faith alone” [and not of works lest any man boast] (Ephesians 2:1-10) and it is through “repentance and baptism”. They are two sides of the same coin. One side describes how God saves people and the other side describes how people respond to the “touch” of God.

The mode of baptism is not an “essential”, it ranks up there with agreeing that “breakfast is the most important meal of the day” and then arguing over what to have for breakfast. “Eating” vs “not eating” is important, the choice of “what” is secondary. In the same way, “repenting” vs “not repenting” is important, the details of the external response are secondary to the REALITY of the internal change.

The “conflict” is manufactured smoke-and-mirrors mumbo-jumbo. A mist giving the appearance of reality, but having no real substance.

essential doctrine? Rejected

it is unlawful to not believe a truth that is revealed by God!

All or nothing!
And no error can be believed

 

[atpollard]

And no error can be believed

... Don't be silly. Lots of people believe lots of errors, so Of course "an error can be believed!"

God cannot lie.
That is a real impossibility, but "no error can be believed" is untrue.

essential doctrine? Rejected

[PS. It is unwise to reject essential doctrines. ]

it is unlawful to not believe a truth that is revealed by God!

Says what Law?