The Bodily Resurrection of Jesus

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bbyrd009

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I'm not sure what you mean by that( satans dialectic) can you clarify it for me, thanks !
ah well im still trying to figure that out, it is opposed to the "Naive dialectic" i guess, and apparently speaking in what we now call "facts" has something to do with it, and it might also be called "Hegelian dialectic" i guess, even "Logical dialectic," and thats about as far as ive gotten.

We are raised to reason "logically" in the West, and we mostly dont even realize that there is another way to reason, and i dont know for sure but i think this is how wisdom is hidden from the wise in Scripture, or one way anyway

Logical and Dialectical Reasoning in Scripture
 

FollowHim

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Hi Davy,

Just to clarify . . . Jesus' body, which was raised, was the same body that died, correct? And it was transformed into a spiritual heavenly body, just like our bodies will be transformed to become like His, is this what you are saying?

Much love!
What I find interesting is hidden emotional needs. Do I need Jesus to be something impossible for me, or to justify my god like abilities

I trust Jesus, that He knows the way through. I realise sin, need, sadness, loneliness, hurt, pain twist and distort so much.

God loves me and came to be like me to give me hope. Whatever he became, His gift to us is the path if we can grasp and abide in His love.

So I see desiring certainty over the unknown which will be experienced is empty. Love is our anchor, and the
resurrection our hope, God bless you.
 

Davy

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Hi Davy,

Just to clarify . . . Jesus' body, which was raised, was the same body that died, correct? And it was transformed into a spiritual heavenly body, just like our bodies will be transformed to become like His, is this what you are saying?

Much love!

What did Lord Jesus mean in John 3 when He said that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit? And what did Apostle Paul mean when he said in 1 Corinthians 15:50 that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither does corruption inherit incorruption?

Lord Jesus' flesh body was transfigured to the resurrection, and kept the marks of His crucifixion, as I have already said. The resurrection is not to a new flesh body, which is why Paul said what he said in 1 Corinthians 15:50 about flesh and blood not inheriting the kingdom of God.
 
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Davy

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Just the opposite as I provided how the Apostles uses both words soma and pneumatikos in his teachings on body and spiritual. But you are close minded and will not accept the meaning of those words even though I have provided Pauls usage of the words in relation to man.

In your view a "spiritual " man has no physical body and is a spirit which is false. A spiritual man is one who is controlled by the Spirit not the flesh.

The same is true with the spiritual drink, spiritual rock and spiritual food ( manna). All were physical rocks, water and food but were supernaturally provided by God , hence they were SPIRITUAL just like the spiritual man who has a real physical body.

So in the Resurrection our spiritual bodies( soma) are still physical bodies controlled completely by the Spirit. Our heavenly bodies will be transformed from mortal to immortal, corruptible to incorruptible.

hope this helps !!!

You are wrong with the Greek word soma also. Paul uses it here about a spiritual body, thus soma does not... automatically mean a flesh body like your thinking.

1 Cor 15:44-50
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body (soma). There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV


So just because you see Greek soma (body), in the above case in red it is referring to a heavenly spiritual body, the body of incorruption Paul taught there.

Really then, the Jewish tradition that our flesh body in the ground is literally raised to another new flesh body is easy to prove false.
 

Davy

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davy with his ad hominem attacks which is a tell tale sign of defeat. When you attack the person and not the argument is says allot about your lack of defending the truth with Scripture. It tells me you have an unteachable spirit and are not open to hear another point of view.

You also deny this Creed

Chalcedon (451 AD)
Following, then, the holy fathers, we unite in teaching all men to
confess the one and only Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. This selfsame
one is perfect both in deity and in humanness; this selfsame one is
also actually God and actually man, with a rational soul <meaning
human soul> and a body. He is of the same reality as God as far as
his deity is concerned and of the same reality as we ourselves as
far as his humanness is concerned; thus like us in all respects, sin
only excepted. Before time began he was begotten of the Father, in
respect of his deity, and now in these "last days," for us and behalf
of our salvation, this selfsame one was born of Mary the virgin, who
is God-bearer in respect of his humanness.

We also teach that we apprehend this one and only Christ-Son, Lord,
only-begotten -- in two natures; and we do this without confusing
the two natures, without transmuting one nature into the other,
without dividing them into two separate categories, without con-
trasting them according to area or function. The distinctiveness
of each nature is not nullified by the union. Instead, the
"properties" of each nature are conserved and both natures concur
in one "person" and in one reality <hypostasis>. They are not
divided or cut into two persons, but are together the one and
only and only-begotten Word <Logos> of God, the Lord Jesus Christ.
Thus have the prophets of old testified; thus the Lord Jesus
Christ himself taught us; thus the Symbol of Fathers <the Nicene
Creed> has handed down to us.

hope this helps !!!

You are the one bearing false witness, making false accusations like I deny the resurrection of Jesus Christ which I have never... done! If anyone needs to be banned from this Forum for telling lies and bearing false witness, it is definitely you! It's becoming obvious why you are here.

And with your play on 1 Cor.2, you also show you don't know what you're talking about, because that has nothing... to do with Paul's teaching in 1 Cor.15 of what type of body the resurrection is.
 

Enoch111

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Really then, the Jewish tradition that our flesh body in the ground is literally raised to another new flesh body is easy to prove false.
If this were true then the resurrection of the saints would be meaningless. That is not Jewish tradition but Bible truth. Resurrection means the raising of the body from the dust, and its transformation into an immortal, glorified body (also called a spiritual body since it is does not have earthly limitations.) It is flesh and bones just like the resurrected body of Christ, yet totally transformed and free from limitations.

Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself (Phil 3:21)
 
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Davy

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Just the opposite as I provided how the Apostles uses both words soma and pneumatikos in his teachings on body and spiritual.

If I recall, you made the statement that Greek soma always means a flesh body. Obviously that is false, because when Paul was speaking of the "spiritual body" in 1 Corinthians 15:44, the Greek for "body" there is 'soma'. So you really have not proven your speculation.

But you are close minded and will not accept the meaning of those words even though I have provided Pauls usage of the words in relation to man.

Another false accusation by you. I showed how you are wrong.

In your view a "spiritual " man has no physical body and is a spirit which is false. A spiritual man is one who is controlled by the Spirit not the flesh.

My view is what God's Word teaches. Obviously that must not be good enough for some folks here. And the view 1 Corinthians 15:44-50 taught by Apostle Paul is that the "spiritual body" is a body of the heavenly, what Paul also called the "image of the heavenly". And that reminds me...

Matt 22:30
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
KJV


So you can keep your false Jewish belief from Judaism about a fleshy resurrection if you want. But it is NOT what The New Testament Bible teaches.
 

Davy

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What I find interesting is hidden emotional needs. Do I need Jesus to be something impossible for me, or to justify my god like abilities

I trust Jesus, that He knows the way through. I realise sin, need, sadness, loneliness, hurt, pain twist and distort so much.

God loves me and came to be like me to give me hope. Whatever he became, His gift to us is the path if we can grasp and abide in His love.

So I see desiring certainty over the unknown which will be experienced is empty. Love is our anchor, and the
resurrection our hope, God bless you.

Yes, and those here bearing false witness with saying I don't believe The Father raised Lord Jesus from the dead show how their devilish minds work. They are Pharisees, only seeking to lay a trap, blind leaders of the blind.
 

Davy

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If this were true then the resurrection of the saints would be meaningless. That is not Jewish tradition but Bible truth.

Yes, the idea... of a new flesh body being the resurrection body is a Jewish tradition. It is where the 'dead in the ground' theory comes from. It denies the Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 Scripture about the flesh going back to the earth where it came from, and our spirit (with soul) going back to God Who gave it. In Matthew 10:28 Lord Jesus made it plain to not fear those who can kill our flesh, but not our soul. By that He shows our soul continues to live after flesh death.

Resurrection means the raising of the body from the dust, and its transformation into an immortal, glorified body (also called a spiritual body since it is does not have earthly limitations.) It is flesh and bones just like the resurrected body of Christ, yet totally transformed and free from limitations.

Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself (Phil 3:21)

Nah, there is no Biblical evidence that the resurrection body that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15 is a flesh body. That has been my point all along, and I'm sticking to what God's Holy Writ says, and not what man says.
 

CadyandZoe

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When I was in high school, we used to mock those who ran around quoting Bible verses all the time. (Now I'm the one quoting Bible verses.) In a mocking tone we would say, "John 21:5. Any fish boys?" This was to demonstrate the absurdity of quoting seemingly random verses taken out of context. Finally, after all these many years it seems appropriate to quote John 21:5 because it demonstrates that even after the resurrection, Jesus enjoyed breakfast with his friends. In some ways, we suspect, the body of Jesus was different. But in some ways it remained the same.

Did Jesus need to eat food to sustain his life after the resurrection? I doubt it. It seems, however, that he was able to enjoy breakfast with his men whenever it pleased him to do so.

How? I don't know.
 
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marks

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What I find interesting is hidden emotional needs. Do I need Jesus to be something impossible for me, or to justify my god like abilities

I trust Jesus, that He knows the way through. I realise sin, need, sadness, loneliness, hurt, pain twist and distort so much.

God loves me and came to be like me to give me hope. Whatever he became, His gift to us is the path if we can grasp and abide in His love.

So I see desiring certainty over the unknown which will be experienced is empty. Love is our anchor, and the
resurrection our hope, God bless you.
Not everyone has the same kind of mind, or mission, or needs of whatever kind.

Hidden emotional needs . . . this is something I think we can all benefit in understanding. These can permeate through and through, and we never even notice!

For myself, one to my primary pleasures in life is to simply understand all the Bible says. Whatever part we're talking about.

Because it all points to Jesus, and Jesus is all in all.

Much love!
 

ChristisGod

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If I recall, you made the statement that Greek soma always means a flesh body. Obviously that is false, because when Paul was speaking of the "spiritual body" in 1 Corinthians 15:44, the Greek for "body" there is 'soma'. So you really have not proven your speculation.



Another false accusation by you. I showed how you are wrong.



.
If you don't believe me look at any Greek Lexicon which proves I'm correct regarding soma and you are not. obviously you have NEVER studied this topic before otherwise you would KNOW soma is a physical body not immaterial as you have falsely believed. Every Greek Lexicon and Dictionary agrees with me and opposes your heretical view on the Resurrected BODY(SOMA).

Strong's Concordance
sóma: a body
Original Word: σῶμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: sóma
Phonetic Spelling: (so'-mah)
Definition: a body
Usage: body, flesh;
HELPS Word-studies
4983 sṓmathe physical body.

NT:4983) is "the body as a whole, the instrument of life," whether of man living, e. g., Matt 6:22, or dead, Matt 27:52; or in resurrection, 1 Cor 15:44; or of beasts, Heb 13:11; of grain, 1 Cor 15:37-38; of the heavenly hosts, 1 Cor 15:40.

(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright © 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers.)

More proof soma is physical

as in Greek writings from Hesiod down, the living body: — of animals, James 3:3; — of man: τό σῶμα, absolutely, Luke 11:34; Luke 12:23; 1 Corinthians 6:13, etc.; ἐν σώματι εἶναι, of earthly life with its troubles, Hebrews 13:3; distinguished from τό αἷμα, 1 Corinthians 11:27; τό σῶμα and τά μέλη of it, 1 Corinthians 12:12, 14-20; James 3:6; τό σῶμα the temple of τό ἅγιον πνεῦμα, 1 Corinthians 6:19; the instrument of the soul, τά διά τοῦ σωματου namely, πραχθεντα, 2 Corinthians 5:10; it is distinguished — from τό πνεῦμα, in Romans 8:10; 1 Corinthians 5:3; 1 Corinthians 6:20 Rec.; ; James 2:26 (4 Macc. 11:11); — from ἡ ψυχή, in Matthew 6:25; Matthew 10:28; Luke 12:22 (Wis. 1:4 Wis. 8:19f; 2 Macc. 7:37 2Macc. 14:38; 4 Macc. 1:28, etc.); — from ἡ ψυχή and τό πνεῦμα together, in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 (cf. Song of the Three, 63); σῶμα ψυχικόν and σῶμα πνευματικόν are distinguished, 1 Corinthians 15:44 (see πνευματικός, 1 and ψυχικός, a.); τό σῶμα τίνος, Matthew 5:29; Luke 11:34; Romans 4:19; Romans 8:23 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 187 (176)), etc.; ὁ ναός τοῦ σωματου αὐτοῦ, the temple which was his body, John 2:21; plural, Romans 1:24; 1 Corinthians 6:15; Ephesians 5:28; the genitive of the possessor is omitted where it is easily learned from the context, as 1 Corinthians 5:3; 2 Corinthians 4:10; 2 Corinthians 5:8; Hebrews 10:22(23), etc.; τό σῶμα τῆς ταπεινώσεως ἡμῶν, the body of our humiliation (subjective genitive), i. e. which we wear in this servile and lowly human life, opposed to τό σῶμα τῆς δόξης αὐτοῦ (i. e. τοῦ Χριστοῦ), the body which Christ has in his glorified state with God in heaven, Philippians 3:21; διά τοῦ σωματου τοῦ Χριστοῦ, through the death of Christ's body, Romans 7:4; διά τῆς προσφοράς τοῦ σωματου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, through the sacrificial offering of the body of Jesus Christ, Hebrews 10:10; τό σῶμα τῆς σαρκός, the body consisting of flesh, i. e. the physical body

Thayers Greek Lexicon
 
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ChristisGod

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1 Corinthians 15:38-41
But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

A summary of the bodies mentioned above are all PHYSICAL in nature

1- people
2- seed
3-animals
4-birds
5-fish
6- heavenly - the sun, moon and stars
7- earthly- all inclusive 1-5

So as we can see BODY above are all PHYSICAL in nature.
 

ChristisGod

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You are the one bearing false witness, making false accusations like I deny the resurrection of Jesus Christ which I have never... done! If anyone needs to be banned from this Forum for telling lies and bearing false witness, it is definitely you! It's becoming obvious why you are here.

And with your play on 1 Cor.2, you also show you don't know what you're talking about, because that has nothing... to do with Paul's teaching in 1 Cor.15 of what type of body the resurrection is.
Those Creeds say the exact opposite of what you believe and therefor deny those Creeds. They support what I'm saying in this thread. Read the Greek Lexicon definitions I provided on this page.

if you don't believe me then believe the Greek Experts definitions that I provided. They all agree regarding soma as does the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 which I have proven in my last 2 posts.

hope this helps !!!
 

CadyandZoe

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If I recall, you made the statement that Greek soma always means a flesh body. Obviously that is false, because when Paul was speaking of the "spiritual body" in 1 Corinthians 15:44, the Greek for "body" there is 'soma'. So you really have not proven your speculation.

Paul speaks of a "spiritual body" which speaks of the origin of the body not the substance of the body. Paul isn't talking about spirit bodies; he is talking about bodies that come into existence supernaturally. The contrast in this context is not phyisical:spiritual; rather, the contrast here is natural:spiritual.

The contrast is between the natural way one is given a body, i.e. born from a woman; and the supernatural way one is given a body, i.e. "the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." 1 Corinthians 15:52.
 
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ChristisGod

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Yes, the idea... of a new flesh body being the resurrection body is a Jewish tradition. .
Not a tradition but a BIBLICAL FACT from the oldest book in the bible.

Job 19:26
King James Bible
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

hope this helps !!!
 

Davy

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When I was in high school, we used to mock those who ran around quoting Bible verses all the time. (Now I'm the one quoting Bible verses.) In a mocking tone we would say, "John 21:5. Any fish boys?" This was to demonstrate the absurdity of quoting seemingly random verses taken out of context. Finally, after all these many years it seems appropriate to quote John 21:5 because it demonstrates that even after the resurrection, Jesus enjoyed breakfast with his friends. In some ways, we suspect, the body of Jesus was different. But in some ways it remained the same.

Did Jesus need to eat food to sustain his life after the resurrection? I doubt it. It seems, however, that he was able to enjoy breakfast with his men whenever it pleased him to do so.

How? I don't know.

Then I'd like to hear your explanation for how Jesus and the two angels with Him in Genesis 18 & 19 ate the food Abraham prepared for them, since they didn't have a flesh body. Jesus was not born through woman's womb yet back then.

Heb 13:2
2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
KJV


It's amazing how many claim to believe God's Word, yet they show Biblical ignorance of it. Those who believe the resurrection is to a flesh body have to deny Apostle Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 15:44-50.
 

ChristisGod

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Then I'd like to hear your explanation for how Jesus and the two angels with Him in Genesis 18 & 19 ate the food Abraham prepared for them, since they didn't have a flesh body. Jesus was not born through woman's womb yet back then.

Heb 13:2
2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
KJV


It's amazing how many claim to believe God's Word, yet they show Biblical ignorance of it. Those who believe the resurrection is to a flesh body have to deny Apostle Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 15:44-50.
its amazing how some people do not know the biblical definition of words such as SOMA( body) and Spiritual( pneumatikos) and make up their own meaning which CONTRADICTS scripture.

hope this helps !!!
 

Davy

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If you don't believe me look at any Greek Lexicon which proves I'm correct regarding soma and you are not. obviously you have NEVER studied this topic before otherwise you would KNOW soma is a physical body not immaterial as you have falsely believed. Every Greek Lexicon and Dictionary agrees with me and opposes your heretical view on the Resurrected BODY(SOMA).

Well, you just proved that you don't know how to use a Greek Lexicon, because Apostle Paul's usage of the Greek word soma ("body") in the following Scripture in red is NOT... about a flesh body.

1 Cor 15:44
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body (soma). There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

KJV