The Bodily Resurrection of Jesus

[Davy]

Those Creeds say the exact opposite of what you believe and therefor deny those Creeds. They support what I'm saying in this thread. Read the Greek Lexicon definitions I provided on this page.

if you don't believe me then believe the Greek Experts definitions that I provided. They all agree regarding soma as does the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 which I have proven in my last 2 posts.

hope this helps !!!

You don't understand what your saying, because you reject simple Scripture like 1 Corinthians 15:44-50 where Apostle Paul showed the resurrection isn't about a flesh body, but a spiritual body. So why would anyone listen to you who rejects simple Scripture like that?

 

[Davy]

Paul speaks of a "spiritual body" which speaks of the origin of the body not the substance of the body. Paul isn't talking about spirit bodies;....

Well yes Paul is talking about a spiritual body like the angels have. Even Lord Jesus in Matthew 22:30 said those of the resurrection are "as the angels of God in heaven". That doesn't mean a new flesh body, it means the "image of the heavenly" like Apostle Paul taught.

1 Cor 15:49-50
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

You guys aren't disagreeing with me on this matter. You are disagreeing with Apostle Paul and God's Holy Writ.

 

[ChristisGod]

Well, you just proved that you don't know how to use a Greek Lexicon, because Apostle Paul's usage of the Greek word soma ("body") in the following Scripture in red is NOT... about a flesh body.

1 Cor 15:44
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body (soma). There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
KJV

Spiritual does not mean the body is immaterial as you falsely believe it means its one controlled by Gods Spirit in the same way the spiritual man is controlled by the Spirit.

the same with Spiritual Rock, Spiritual food(manna), Spiritual drink(water) from the physical Rock in the wilderness.

your hermenuetics need to line up with the biblical words and their meanings in the context in which they are used. And I have proven how Paul used those words to the Corinthians which oppose your view.

next...........................

 

[ChristisGod]

Well yes Paul is talking about a spiritual body like the angels have. Even Lord Jesus in Matthew 22:30 said those of the resurrection are "as the angels of God in heaven". That doesn't mean a new flesh body, it means the "image of the heavenly" like Apostle Paul taught.

1 Cor 15:49-50
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

You guys aren't disagreeing with me on this matter. You are disagreeing with Apostle Paul and God's Holy Writ.

it has NOTHING to do with angels or mans bodies in that text but has everything to do with MARRIAGE/PROCREATION in the text. There will be no sexual relations in heaven like there is now on this earth. The new heavens and earth man will no longer procreate but will be like the angles in heaven who do not PROCREATE ie have sexual relations.

Your method is nothing but eisegesis and not even considering what the context is in Matthew 22.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Then I'd like to hear your explanation for how Jesus and the two angels with Him in Genesis 18 & 19 ate the food Abraham prepared for them, since they didn't have a flesh body. Jesus was not born through woman's womb yet back then.

Heb 13:2
2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
KJV

It's amazing how many claim to believe God's Word, yet they show Biblical ignorance of it. Those who believe the resurrection is to a flesh body have to deny Apostle Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 15:44-50.

First of all, I don't believe the Old Testament contains Christophanies. Rather, the Old Testament contains examples of theophanies. The angel of the Lord is not Jesus, but the Father instead. In the opening chapter of Paul's letter to the Hebrews, he argues that Jesus was not a theophany.

Secondly, my claim isn't that the resurrected body is made of flesh. Paul doesn't say anything about the "substance" of the body. Rather, he is focused on the qualities of the body, i.e. indestructible and incorruptible. 1 Corinthians 15:42

Compare verse 42 with verse 44, where we better understand Paul's point.
(vs 42) It is sown a perishable body -->> (vs 44) it is sown an natural body
(vs 42) It is raised an imperishable body -->> (vs 44) it is raised a spiritual body.

Remember, Paul isn't concerned with substance, matter or material, i.e. the difference between physical and spiritual. Rather, he compares nature to supernatural. A "natural body" is the body that nature produces. Nature means, existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind. And not the result of a miracle. A natural body is that which comes from natural processes.

What is the opposite of that? A "spiritual body" is that which comes into existence in a way contrary to the established constitution and course of things. This is a body that exists and is caused by processes that transcend the ordinary laws by which the universe is governed. The essential and necessary attribute of the Spiritual body is imperishability.

Where do we disagree?

 

[Davy]

Not a tradition but a BIBLICAL FACT from the oldest book in the bible.

Job 19:26
King James Bible
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

hope this helps !!!

Nah, the theory that man's soul is dependent upon a flesh body is an old Jewish tradition based on a sole interpretation of Genesis 2:7. That theory even tries to change what Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 declares simply that happens at flesh death, saying the "spirit" there is just some kind of animating force that returns to God, when it's actually about one's spirit and soul as an individual entity returning to The Father, with their flesh body going back to the earthy material elements where it came from.

Eccl 12:5-7
5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:

6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
KJV

That further proves what Jesus said in John 3, that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit.

Another false old Jewish tradition they try to push along with the 'dead in the ground' theory is the false idea that the word 'spirit' always means an evil spirit or demon, showing they don't know their Bible:

Philem 25
25 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit (pneumatos). Amen.
KJV

That is the same Greek word used here...

Matt 27:50
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
KJV

It is Strong's Exhaustive Concordance no. 4151 for those who want to look it up.


To All:
I highly recommend the Bible student have at minimum a Strong's Concordance which has both a Hebrew and Greek Lexicon in the back. Dr. James Strong assigned numbers to each word in the KJV Bible, and then gave the actual manuscript word and its definition. Many scholarly works are based on Strong's numbers in the KJV Bible. This is why a minimum set of Bible study tools for English speaking peoples is a KJV Bible and a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance.

 

[ChristisGod]

First of all, I don't believe the Old Testament contains Christophanies. Rather, the Old Testament contains examples of theophanies. The angel of the Lord is not Jesus, but the Father instead. In the opening chapter of Paul's letter to the Hebrews, he argues that Jesus was not a theophany.

Secondly, my claim isn't that the resurrected body is made of flesh. Paul doesn't say anything about the "substance" of the body. Rather, he is focused on the qualities of the body, i.e. indestructible and incorruptible. 1 Corinthians 15:42

Compare verse 42 with verse 44, where we better understand Paul's point.
(vs 42) It is sown a perishable body -->> (vs 44) it is sown an natural body
(vs 42) It is raised an imperishable body -->> (vs 44) it is raised a spiritual body.

Remember, Paul isn't concerned with substance, matter or material, i.e. the difference between physical and spiritual. Rather, he compares nature to supernatural. A "natural body" is the body that nature produces. Nature means, existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind. And not the result of a miracle. A natural body is that which comes from natural processes.

What is the opposite of that? A "spiritual body" is that which comes into existence in a way contrary to the established constitution and course of things. This is a body that exists and is caused by processes that transcend the ordinary laws by which the universe is governed. The essential and necessary attribute of the Spiritual body is imperishability.

Where do we disagree?

Just a quick question do you believe Jesus Resurrected body is physical or non physical ?

 

[ChristisGod]

Nah, the theory that man's soul is dependent upon a flesh body is an old Jewish tradition based on a sole interpretation of Genesis 2:7. That theory even tries to change what Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 declares simply that happens at flesh death, saying the "spirit" there is just some kind of animating force that returns to God, when it's actually about one's spirit and soul as an individual entity returning to The Father, with their flesh body going back to the earthy material elements where it came from.

Eccl 12:5-7
5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:

6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
KJV

That further proves what Jesus said in John 3, that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit.

Another false old Jewish tradition they try to push along with the 'dead in the ground' theory is the false idea that the word 'spirit' always means an evil spirit or demon, showing they don't know their Bible:

Philem 25
25 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit (pneumatos). Amen.
KJV

That is the same Greek word used here...

Matt 27:50
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
KJV

It is Strong's Exhaustive Concordance no. 4151 for those who want to look it up.


To All:
I highly recommend the Bible student have at minimum a Strong's Concordance which has both a Hebrew and Greek Lexicon in the back. Dr. James Strong assigned numbers to each word in the KJV Bible, and then gave the actual manuscript word and its definition. Many scholarly works are based on Strong's numbers in the KJV Bible. This is why a minimum set of Bible study tools for English speaking peoples is a KJV Bible and a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance.

Here is strongs which definition on BODY ( SOMA) which refutes your false view.

Strong's Concordance
sóma: a body
Original Word: σῶμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: sóma
Phonetic Spelling: (so'-mah)
Definition: a body
Usage: body, flesh;
HELPS Word-studies
4983 sṓma – the physical body.

 

[Davy]

its amazing how some people do not know the biblical definition of words such as SOMA( body) and Spiritual( pneumatikos) and make up their own meaning which CONTRADICTS scripture.

hope this helps !!!

Sure is amazing, and what is even more... amazing is those who claim they know, when they won't even recognize how Greek soma was also used by Apostle Paul to point to a "spiritual body"!

1 Cor 15:43-50
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body (Greek soma). There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

 

[Davy]

Spiritual does not mean the body is immaterial as you falsely believe it means its one controlled by Gods Spirit in the same way the spiritual man is controlled by the Spirit.

the same with Spiritual Rock, Spiritual food(manna), Spiritual drink(water) from the physical Rock in the wilderness.

your hermenuetics need to line up with the biblical words and their meanings in the context in which they are used. And I have proven how Paul used those words to the Corinthians which oppose your view.

next...........................

The blind Jewish Pharisees believed in a fleshy resurrection, which is why they tempted Jesus with the woman that had seven husbands...

Matt 22:25-32
25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
27 And last of all the woman died also.
28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
KJV

As the angels in heaven, that's solid proof of what the resurrection is, to a heavenly spiritual body, not one of flesh again. And Jesus showed those who don't understand this show they err not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God!

 

[ChristisGod]

Sure is amazing, and what is even more... amazing is those who claim they know, when they won't even recognize how Greek soma was also used by Apostle Paul to point to a "spiritual body"!

1 Cor 15:43-50
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body (Greek soma). There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

Here your favorite recommended STRONGS refutes you below :

STRONGS NT 4152: πνευματικός

πνευματικός, πνευματικῇ, πνευματικόν (πνεῦμα), spiritual (Vulg.spiritalis); in the N. T.

1. relating to the human spirit, or rational soul, as the part of man which is akin to God and serves as his instrument or organ, opposed to ἡ ψυχή (see πνεῦμα, 2): hence, τό πνευματικόν, that which possesses the nature of the rational soul, opposed to τό ψυχικόν, 1 Corinthians 15:46 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 592 (551)); σῶμα πνευματικόν, the body which is animated and controlled only by the rational soul and by means of which the rational life, of life of the πενυμα, is lived; opposed to σῶμα ψυχικόν, verse 44.

 

[Davy]

it has NOTHING to do with angels or mans bodies in that text but has everything to do with MARRIAGE/PROCREATION in the text. There will be no sexual relations in heaven like there is now on this earth. The new heavens and earth man will no longer procreate but will be like the angles in heaven who do not PROCREATE ie have sexual relations.

Your method is nothing but eisegesis and not even considering what the context is in Matthew 22.

Notice the above refusal to recognize what Jesus said to the blind Pharisees, that those of the resurrection are "as the angels of God in heaven".

Matt 22:30
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
KJV

Even Apostle Peter understood the "as the angels" concept when speaking of those who had already died...

1 Peter 4:5-6
5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
KJV

 

[Davy]

First of all, I don't believe the Old Testament contains Christophanies. Rather, the Old Testament contains examples of theophanies. The angel of the Lord is not Jesus, but the Father instead. In the opening chapter of Paul's letter to the Hebrews, he argues that Jesus was not a theophany.

Thanks for letting me know that about your self. That shows you are wrapped up in beliefs from Judaism, and not Christianity, so welcome to my Ignore list.

John 8:56-59
56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw it, and was glad."

57 Then said the Jews unto Him, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast Thou seen Abraham?"

58 Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

59 Then took they up stones to cast at Him: but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
KJV

 

[Behold]

Ive not read all the responses, as i just discovered this Thread...

But can't we just keep it simple regarding the "corruption shall put on incorruption", verse, as this it not really deep stuff, reader.

Listen,
Your old man, that is your body of flesh, did not receive redemption. If it had, it would not die.
It dies because its corrupted and is going to age, and eventually die.
If you are born again, you will be raised Incorruptible.. This is speaking of your New Body.
How do you know? Because your born again Spirit is already incorruptible, and its waiting for the new body.

What is you New Body going to be like?
It will be exactly the same as the one Jesus has, that walked out of the tomb.
You will have that TYPE body....."raised incorruptible".

 

[ChristisGod]

Ive not read all the responses, as i just discovered this Thread...

But can't we just keep it simple regarding the "corruption shall put on incorruption", verse, as this it not really deep stuff, reader.

Listen,
Your old man, that is your body of flesh, did not receive redemption. If it had, it would not die.
It dies because its corrupted and is going to age, and eventually die.
If you are born again, you will be raised Incorruptible.. This is speaking of your New Body.
How do you know? Because your born again Spirit is already incorruptible, and its waiting for the new body.

What is you New Body going to be like?
It will be exactly the same as the one Jesus has, that walked out of the tomb.
You will have that TYPE body....."raised incorruptible".

AMEN !

 

[Davy]

Here your favorite recommended STRONGS refutes you below :

STRONGS NT 4152: πνευματικός

πνευματικός, πνευματικῇ, πνευματικόν (πνεῦμα), spiritual (Vulg.spiritalis); in the N. T.

1. relating to the human spirit, or rational soul, as the part of man which is akin to God and serves as his instrument or organ, opposed to ἡ ψυχή (see πνεῦμα, 2): hence, τό πνευματικόν, that which possesses the nature of the rational soul, opposed to τό ψυχικόν, 1 Corinthians 15:46 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 592 (551)); σῶμα πνευματικόν, the body which is animated and controlled only by the rational soul and by means of which the rational life, of life of the πενυμα, is lived; opposed to σῶμα ψυχικόν, verse 44.

1 Cor 15:42-50
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body (Greek soma). There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

Even a 1st grader can understand Apostle Paul's context about a spirit body image of the heavenly per the above, easily defeating those who succumb to word fallacies. The old saying for that kind of tunnel vision is missing the forest for the trees.

 

[Enoch111]

That has been my point all along, and I'm sticking to what God's Holy Writ says, and not what man says.

Since the body of Christ after His resurrection was a body of flesh and bones, you are way off base. And that is according to Holy Writ.

Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. (John 20:27)

According to this Scripture, you are faithless. A very serious problem.

 

[Davy]

Ive not read all the responses, as i just discovered this Thread...

But can't we just keep it simple regarding the "corruption shall put on incorruption", verse, as this it not really deep stuff, reader.

Listen,
Your old man, that is your body of flesh, did not receive redemption. If it had, it would not die.
It dies because its corrupted and is going to age, and eventually die.
If you are born again, you will be raised Incorruptible.. This is speaking of your New Body.
How do you know? Because your born again Spirit is already incorruptible, and its waiting for the new body.

What is you New Body going to be like?
It will be exactly the same as the one Jesus has, that walked out of the tomb.
You will have that TYPE body....."raised incorruptible".

Yes, but the argument some here have is against any idea that it is solely an "image of the heavenly" type body, what Apostle Paul called "a spiritual body", and what Jesus said that those of the resurrection are "as the angels of God in heaven", definitely not pointing to a new flesh body.

So it's easy to claim common sense but still miss the actual written Word of God, which made this matter simple to understand. Yet traditions of men cause many to fight against what God's Word teaches about that "spiritual body" that is the resurrection.

 

[Davy]

Since the body of Christ after His resurrection was a body of flesh and bones, you are way off base. And that is according to Holy Writ.

Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. (John 20:27)

According to this Scripture, you are faithless. A very serious problem.

Explain these Scriptures by Apostle Paul please. Then we will see who it is that is way off base:

1 Cor 15:42-50
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

 

[ChristisGod]

1 Cor 15:42-50
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body (Greek soma). There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

Even a 1st grader can understand Apostle Paul's context about a spirit body image of the heavenly per the above, easily defeating those who succumb to word fallacies. The old saying for that kind of tunnel vision is missing the forest for the trees.

strongs refutes your unbiblical argument.