The Book of Remembrance.

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VictoryinJesus

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and just to be clear these are helping you to see what exactly? See a difference?

Because all of it is confusion. Who is right or who is wrong? Does it really matter? Or is it the final result that matters and that would be that all dominion is (and will be) His. How does it help me? To not be defeated with what everyone says coming from all directions. Isn’t His dominion light? And light breaks up the dominions of dark. period. It clarifies Israel is the Lord’s dominion and where light dwells. Is it above or in us? Is it to come or already here? is His kingdom of light now or yet to come? Is the church Israel? Or is Israel separate from the church...honestly I could care less who is right about the scriptures but care about the final result (here or yet future); the dominion of darkness is broken up and consumed by the dominion of light which is where He dwells. Is His dominion not Israel? is His dominion not light? Truth? That which is not seen...seen?

Romans 6:9
[9] Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

1 John 5:5
[5] Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Ephesians 1:21
[21] Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: ...(Jude 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.)

Colossians 1:16
[16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
 
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bbyrd009

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Because all of it is confusion.
well i still don't claim to know anything here, and apparently @amadeus is not biting, but this dividing the faithful into three groups is causing less confusion for you somehow? Not sure what was wrong with a "sea, mud (Javan, Greece), dry land" analogy myself. Not saying that i can conclusively demonstrate that there are no spiritual divisions among those on dry land...yet. But i think i'm pretty close now tbh. Imo elohim is elohim, and this COG doctrine has some serious leaks

the only possible benefit i can see for us at the present is for determinists to determine more interminably? i mean, aren't these really just going to end up being labels applied arbitrarily?
 
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VictoryinJesus

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well i still don't claim to know anything here, and apparently @amadeus is not biting, but this dividing the faithful into three groups is causing less confusion for you somehow? Not sure what was wrong with a "sea, mud (Javan, Greece), dry land" analogy myself. Not saying that i can conclusively demonstrate that there are no spiritual divisions among those on dry land...yet. But i think i'm pretty close now tbh

Sorry. That is your and Epi’s conversation about dividing. It is way over my head.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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well i still don't claim to know anything here, and apparently @amadeus is not biting, but this dividing the faithful into three groups is causing less confusion for you somehow? Not sure what was wrong with a "sea, mud (Javan, Greece), dry land" analogy myself. Not saying that i can conclusively demonstrate that there are no spiritual divisions among those on dry land...yet. But i think i'm pretty close now tbh. Imo elohim is elohim, and this COG doctrine has some serious leaks

the only possible benefit i can see for us at the present is for determinists to determine more interminably? i mean, aren't these really just going to end up being labels applied arbitrarily?

Maybe consider the mother whose child died because she suffocated it and was all for the alive child belonging to the other mother...being cut in half by a sword so each could have a part of the alive child.
 
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bbyrd009

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Maybe consider the mother whose child died because she suffocated it and was all for the alive child belonging to the other mother...being cut in half by a sword so each could have a part of the alive child.
hmm, seems like a diff concept to me, you would have to make the connections more clearly for me to follow
 

Episkopos

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a lot of my resistance here is possibly bc you seem awful sure Epi, i don't ever recall this being a good sign wadr


Would you rather listen to a person who is doubtful? :)

I speak what I have experienced and been shown by the Lord. If anyone can benefit by this...then that's a good thing.
 
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bbyrd009

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Would you rather listen to a person who is doubtful? :)

I speak what I have experienced and been shown by the Lord. If anyone can benefit by this...then that's a good thing.
well, you are making assumptions in there imo, that i would not make, after all satan appears as an angel of light right
many will be deceived
etc

so wadr you are making it worse imo, not better.
Yes, personally i would rather listen to someone who is doubtful now
 
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amadeus

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@Episkopos
Episkopos wrote: Actually three...

Called but not chosen: the guests, the saved of the nations.

Called and chosen but not faithful: The filthy, the rejected ones (into outer darkness)

The called, chosen, and faithful
: the saints.

i'm curious here, assuming these divisions are true, how might one even meaningfully apply them?
Seems to me that you will just end up with a more refined bad definition of "saved" than the one we have now?
wadr i am detecting some COGIC propaganda here, @ this division of the called, chosen, and faithful followers,
seems to revolve around this v,
14These will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will conquer them because He is Lord of lords and King of kings.z Those with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.aa

maybe i just am not seeing the point

@amadeus what do you think of this
I would not have so divided them but neither can I make a definite judgment against.

I have not read the entire thread carefully but will go from what I have quoted here.

There is certainly a lot of confusion with the word, "saved" and the way different people use it. What does it mean when they say it? To some it means always with God at the end of their course. To others it means saved for the moment as when you are drowning and someone pulls you out before it is too late for you. In this second one of course, you still may fall off a boat and die from drowning at a later date. Perhaps there are additional ways that people understand it.

Let's consider a few verses about the called, chosen and faithful:


"For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods." Matt 25:14

Before going on to "chosen" we should consider also that God had already chosen who it was He was going to call, so the order may not be exactly correct or... there may be more than one calling or more than one choosing?

For then was it from among those God called that He chose some?


"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you." John 15:16

On the calling consider the difference between Jonah being called [or chosen] to go to Nineveh and the boy Samuel being called by God while he slept. Jonah recognizing God's voice decided to run away from God. Samuel did not recognize God's voice initially, but when he was advised to listen and answer he listened humbly. Who of the two was faithful?

"For many are called, but few are chosen.: Matt 22:14

Why did God continue to press Jonah when the man continued to run or to complain instead of submitting to God's calling, to God's choosing? Why did He call again to Samuel when the boy failed to answer Him the first time?

"Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing." Matt 24:45-46

The faithful one is the one who is called by God and then chosen to do a particular task and then goes to work and remains so engaged until the end of it.

"These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful." Rev 17:14

There are some who never have "ears to hear" and so never hear God's voice. Some hear but do not immediately recognize whose voice it is. Then some who do recognize God's voice choose to run from Him rather than to listen and obey.

Is anyone saved who never Is anyone saved who hears and is obedient early on [Jonah] but later decides he doesn't understand or like God's way of doing something? What of the unnamed prophet sent out of Judah to Jeroboam in I Kings 13? He was certainly called of God and chosen of God to go to Israel [northern 10 tribes]. He faithful for a while, but not to the end of his journey...

Who was saved for the moment and who was saved at the end of the road? Called and chosen without enduring to the end faithfulness misses something important... like maybe that ultimate salvation.

I am not sure have fully addressed the question, but... if no maybe specific questions will help us move closer to God's message.



 
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Episkopos

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@Episkopos



I would not have so divided them but neither can I make a definite judgment against.

I have not read the entire thread carefully but will go from what I have quoted here.

There is certainly a lot of confusion with the word, "saved" and the way different people use it. What does it mean when they say it? To some it means always with God at the end of their course. To others it means saved for the moment as when you are drowning and someone pulls you out before it is too late for you. In this second one of course, you still may fall off a boat and die from drowning at a later date. Perhaps there are additional ways that people understand it.

Let's consider a few verses about the called, chosen and faithful:


"For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods." Matt 25:14

Before going on to "chosen" we should consider also that God had already chosen who it was He was going to call, so the order may not be exactly correct or... there may be more than one calling or more than one choosing?

For then was it from among those God called that He chose some?


"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you." John 15:16

On the calling consider the difference between Jonah being called [or chosen] to go to Nineveh and the boy Samuel being called by God while he slept. Jonah recognizing God's voice decided to run away from God. Samuel did not recognize God's voice initially, but when he was advised to listen and answer he listened humbly. Who of the two was faithful?

"For many are called, but few are chosen.: Matt 22:14

Why did God continue to press Jonah when the man continued to run or to complain instead of submitting to God's calling, to God's choosing? Why did He call again to Samuel when the boy failed to answer Him the first time?

"Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing." Matt 24:45-46

The faithful one is the one who is called by God and then chosen to do a particular task and then goes to work and remains so engaged until the end of it.

"These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful." Rev 17:14

There are some who never have "ears to hear" and so never hear God's voice. Some hear but do not immediately recognize whose voice it is. Then some who do recognize God's voice choose to run from Him rather than to listen and obey.

Is anyone saved who never Is anyone saved who hears and is obedient early on [Jonah] but later decides he doesn't understand or like God's way of doing something? What of the unnamed prophet sent out of Judah to Jeroboam in I Kings 13? He was certainly called of God and chosen of God to go to Israel [northern 10 tribes]. He faithful for a while, but not to the end of his journey...

Who was saved for the moment and who was saved at the end of the road? Called and chosen without enduring to the end faithfulness misses something important... like maybe that ultimate salvation.

I am not sure have fully addressed the question, but... if no maybe specific questions will help us move closer to God's message.




...and you must add to this....greatest and least in the kingdom. Faithfulness is also a continuance or steadfastness in doing what is right.

Can a man look in the mirror...and then go off and forget who he is? Obviously, yes. Then these will not be as faithful as they who do remember who they are.
 

amadeus

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well i still don't claim to know anything here, and apparently @amadeus is not biting, but this dividing the faithful into three groups is causing less confusion for you somehow? Not sure what was wrong with a "sea, mud (Javan, Greece), dry land" analogy myself. Not saying that i can conclusively demonstrate that there are no spiritual divisions among those on dry land...yet. But i think i'm pretty close now tbh. Imo elohim is elohim, and this COG doctrine has some serious leaks

the only possible benefit i can see for us at the present is for determinists to determine more interminably? i mean, aren't these really just going to end up being labels applied arbitrarily?
I see no sharp easily discerned lines between this faithful one and that one. Consider the ark that saved living creatures from the flood. There were unclean beasts and there were clean beasts and there were people... all three varieties saved from the flood. But even of the only 8 people who were saved we see further testing and sifting with Noah who got drunk and the one son who chose to look and the two who went to great lengths so as not to look. Why all of the sifting and testing? Where do we divide them? I guess that we don't. This is why Jesus said,


"Judge not, that ye be not judged.

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." Matt 7:1-2

For each of us we need to know when God is giving us instruction but until we have actually finished our course here, what should our final judgment be even against or for ourselves? People don't want to be left hanging. They want a final answer now, but who other than God really has such a final answer before the course is finished? When was it that Jesus said these words? "It is finished". Was it not when he about to close his eyes the last time as a man in death?
 
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amadeus

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...and you must add to this....greatest and least in the kingdom. Faithfulness is also a continuance or steadfastness in doing what is right.

Can a man look in the mirror...and then go off and forget who he is? Obviously, yes. Then these will not be as faithful as they who do remember who they are.
We may not agree exactly on every point but that could simply be because one or both of us is wrong on some points. This is likely, but I am seemingly not so far from you along much of the journey. I believe that you do not espouse the unyielding idea of once saved always saved and for that I am thankful. To me the faithfulness is the most important part and it does and should extend to the end of our road even if we got a late start.

I keep on looking at that mirror sometimes actually seeing where I took another step closer. I have also at times seen some steps backward. Hopefully there are more of the former than of the latter.
 
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Episkopos

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We may not agree exactly on every point but that could simply be because one or both of us is wrong on some points. This is likely, but I am seemingly not so far from you along much of the journey. I believe that you do not espouse the unyielding idea of once saved always saved and for that I am thankful. To me the faithfulness is the most important part and it does and should extend to the end of our road even if we got a late start.

I keep on looking at that mirror sometimes actually seeing where I took another step closer. I have also at times seen some steps backward. Hopefully there are more of the former than of the latter.

Agreed! In the meantime we can encourage each other to press forward in the race of faith! :)

Blessing to you!
 
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VictoryinJesus

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?
Hello @VictoryinJesus,

Thank you for repying.

* Can you give me a Scripture that I can read to confirm that thought please, for this is new to me. The only inheritance I know Israel were promised, is in the land promised to the early Fathers: to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and to their offspring, which has not yet been realised. To be fully realised it will require the resurrection from the dead, and the restoration of all things, as promised. But it is to be realized upon the earth: whereas the inheritance which the Church of the One Body, of which Christ is the Head is promised is in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

Psalm 111:6
[6] He hath shewed his people the power of his works, that he may give them the heritage of the heathen.
 

charity

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Psalm 111:6
[6] He hath shewed his people the power of his works, that he may give them the heritage of the heathen.
Thank you, @VictoryinJesus,

However, with respect, this concerns Israel as a nation, when reconciled, in accordance with the promises made to the Fathers which Christ came to confirm. It does not refer to the Church which is the Body of Christ, which is a spiritual company, and whose promises and inheritance await them in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

VictoryinJesus

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Thank you, @VictoryinJesus,

However, with respect, this concerns Israel as a nation, when reconciled, in accordance with the promises made to the Fathers which Christ came to confirm. It does not refer to the Church which is the Body of Christ, which is a spiritual company, and whose promises and inheritance await them in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Charity, I value your input and certainty do not mean I’m right and you are wrong. It could be you are right. In regards to whose spiritual inheritance awaits them(us) in heaven...we have an inheritance now. It is children born of light.

Isaiah 63:14-16
[14] As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the Lord caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name. [15] Look down from heaven, and behold from the habitation of thy holiness and of thy glory: where is thy zeal and thy strength, the sounding of thy bowels and of thy mercies toward me? are they restrained? [16] Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O Lord , art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.

Philippians 2:1
[1] If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,

His name is everlasting. An heritage that does not end while the wicked name perishes. His continues. That is what we are really discussing here. Does His name continue throughout the old and New Testament? His great namesake...is but One(His body). Psalm 127:3 Lo, children are an heritage of the Lord : and the fruit of the womb is his reward.

Psalm 61:5-7
[5] For thou, O God, hast heard my vows: thou hast given me the heritage of those that fear thy name. [6] Thou wilt prolong the king's life: and his years as many generations. [7] He shall abide before God for ever: O prepare mercy and truth, which may preserve him.

“...which may preserve him.” Into an everlasting glorious name. Isaiah 9:6
[6] For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 10:10-11
[10] The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. [11] I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Life abundantly. Rather than death abundant. A flourishing of life. Rather than a flourishing of death. Life in abundance(children) which may preserve Him. Life in abundance; increase of God’s house.

The portion of the wicked: Job 20:28-29
[28] The increase of his house shall depart, and his goods shall flow away in the day of his wrath. [29] This is the portion of a wicked man from God, and the heritage appointed unto him by God. —which perishes.
 
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Enoch111

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...we have an inheritance now. It is children born of light.
Not sure what this means, but the Christian's inheritance is RESERVED for him or her in Heaven. So it is a future inheritance.

To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you...(1 Pet 1:4)
 

VictoryinJesus

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Not sure what this means, but the Christian's inheritance is RESERVED for him or her in Heaven. So it is a future inheritance.

To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you...(1 Pet 1:4)

You are right. Bad error on my part. Thank you for the scripture to support it.
 

ScottA

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Here is a subject that few speak of...and yet it is rather an important consideration when it comes to we who actively seek to advance with God.

Mal. 3:16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.


We see that there is a book of Remembrance...apart from either of the other books that record the saints and the righteous.

But who is written in it?
The book or remembrance is the Word, His story, and His promises, which are many, and by which all are judged, both the living and the dead.