1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

The Case Against the Trinity

Discussion in 'Unorthodox Doctrine Forum' started by Wrangler, Feb 14, 2021.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    21,804
    Likes Received:
    4,073
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Right...Jesus' begetting had to do with the fact that the Holy Ghost became one with the egg in the womb of the virgin Mary...no one else has ever been begotten in that way.

    However, this does not mean that those who have been born again are not begotten.

    Verses to ponder (1 Corinthians 6:17, Ephesians 3:19-20, Colossians 1:27).

    For I believe that we are begotten when the Holy Spirit of Christ comes to dwell within us in all of His fulness.

    So we become "sons of God".
     
  2. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,553
    Likes Received:
    2,393
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    Hello @justbyfaith,

    Yes, the Lord Jesus was God's only Begotten Son. 'The only begotten of the Father' (John 1:14; John 1:18; John 3:16-18; Hebrews 1:5; Acts 13:33; Hebrews 1:5; Hebrews 5:5; 1 John 4:9)
    The word, 'begotten' is also used in relation to believers in 1 Corinthians 4:15.

    'For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ,
    yet have ye not many fathers:
    for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.'

    (1Corinthians 4:15)

    * Paul, as the one through whom the Corinthians believers had come to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, refers to himself as their 'father', and of having 'begotten' them. He says the same of Onesimus in Philemon 1:10. Though obviously he is talking figuratively.

    * Peter uses the word 'begotten' in 1 Peter 1:3, as we saw earlier, says that God had 'begotten us again', referring to himself and those believers to whom he spoke. Yet this is figurative language again.

    * 1 John 5:1 says, 'Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:
    and every one that loveth Him that begat
    loveth him also that is begotten of Him.'
    * 1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not;
    but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself,
    and that wicked one toucheth him not.
    * Revelation 1:5 'And from Jesus Christ,
    Who is the faithful witness, and
    the first begotten of the dead, and
    the prince of the kings of the earth.

    Unto Him that loved us,
    and washed us from our sins in His own blood,

    * The believer is 'born of God' and therefore can be referred to as having been begotten of Him, in that sense, but never in the sense that the Lord Jesus Christ is. To not make that distinction clear is taking from His unique position as the only Begotten Son of God.

    * We are sons of God by adoption, whereas He was the offspring of God by natural birth.

    Thank you
    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
  3. reformed1689

    reformed1689 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,418
    Likes Received:
    1,181
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Perhaps you should read John 1.
     
  4. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    21,804
    Likes Received:
    4,073
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    yes, @charity,

    Jesus is the only begotten Son in a unique way in that He was born through the hypostatic union.

    But now we also have a "hypostatic union" in that His Spirit has come to dwell in us by faith and our spirit has become one with His Spirit (1 Corinthians 6:17) and in that all of the fulness of the Holy Ghost dwells within us (Ephesians 3:19-20).
     
  5. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,751
    Likes Received:
    416
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
  6. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,751
    Likes Received:
    416
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Priceless. This is a priceless example of taking verses out of context to synthesis support for a doctrine that is not in the Bible. Like the trinity, hypostatic union is not in the Bible. It's so silly to recognize that God is referred to in the singular over 5,000 times but conclude he is plural.
     
  7. reformed1689

    reformed1689 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,418
    Likes Received:
    1,181
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    And how does that change the fact that John 1 explicitly says the Word was God?
     
  8. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,751
    Likes Received:
    416
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Not much of a job for a god. But if you read the Bible, you will find that Jesus relied on the Father to bring him glory. So much for your theory of this non-existent '3rd person.'

    'Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me'
    John 17:24
     
  9. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,751
    Likes Received:
    416
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    We are predictably doing laps on ground already covered. First borns are always the only child until other children come around. I already quoted verses pointing out how we are children of God. Jesus is said to be the firstborn of all creation. The first of others to follow. Jesus WAS the only son of God but is no longer an only child.
     
  10. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,751
    Likes Received:
    416
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    They assert equality when there is none. Many NT books begin:


    Grace and peace be with you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus the Anointed.
    Philippians 1:2 (Voice)

    Again and again, the NT unitarian writers did not get the trinitarian memo.

    'For us, there is only one God, the Father'
    1 Corinthians 8:6

    I've challenged trinitarians to construct a stronger anti-trinitarian verse. Crickets! This would have been a super excellent time for God to enlighten us with, 'for us, there is a un, deus, troi triune God.' I believe in one God, the Father as the Bible says over 5,000 times!

    They ignore what they cannot explain. The most common tactic is to substitute with preferred verses, whataboutism. To me, the 1C is definitive in and of itself. The biggest competition to God is the idol of the trinity for God says you shall have no other gods before me. (singular). That would have been a super excellent time for God to enlighten us he meant un, deus, troi.

    I don't think my wife would accept my being faithful to her if I explained to her that my wife is one 'being' in 3 'persons,' Tabitha, Sally and Veronica.
     
  11. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,751
    Likes Received:
    416
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Sad attempt to use figurative verses to support a literal interpretation. Words are not a being. The Word in question is the word of God. God put these words in Jesus's mouth as Saint Luke explains, quoting Deuteronomy 18:15-18 again.

    20 Then God may send Jesus the Anointed, whom God has chosen for you. 21 He is in heaven now and must remain there until the day of universal restoration comes—the restoration which in ancient times God announced through the holy prophets. 22 Moses, for example, said, “The Eternal One your God will raise up from among your people a prophet who will be like me. You must listen to Him. 23 And whoever does not listen to His words will be completely uprooted from among the people.” ... God’s word
    Acts 3:20-23,25 (Voice)
     
  12. reformed1689

    reformed1689 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,418
    Likes Received:
    1,181
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Of course Words are not being. But it is not describing Words. It is using "Word" as a title for Christ.
     
  13. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,751
    Likes Received:
    416
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    That is a figurative interpretation, which trinitarians prefer because they cannot refer to a literal text. It's not even referring to the same beginning as Genesis but the beginning of universal restoration. Watch this.

     
  14. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    21,804
    Likes Received:
    4,073
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    It is implied in Luke 1:35.

    Also, do you deny that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh (see 1 john 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7)?

    That is the hypostatic union.
     
  15. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    21,804
    Likes Received:
    4,073
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I am beginning to grow weary in well-doing because those who deny the Trinity seem to be so hard-hearted that they are never going to change their point of view. It seems to me like constant argument going back an forth and all we end up doing is to go in circles.

    So, I am just going to refer everyone in this thread to my thread on the Trinity and leave it at that.

    True Trinity. (posts #1-#6).

    This will be my last post on this thread.
     
  16. DNB

    DNB Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,252
    Likes Received:
    1,361
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    Yes, overall there is an extremely bad exegesis and dialectic in the entirety of their rationale. It's like any conspiracy theorist, they ignore the main fundaments of the argument, and , as you said, take you down rabbit trails or the 'whataboutism'.

    Yes, they use the 'Granville Sharpe' argument all the time, which only constitutes 1% of all the equivalent phrases throughout the NT (Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1). That is, as opposed to verses like Philippians 1:2, as you pointed out, and the countless others that make a clear and distinct demarcation between the two entities, or beings.

    God, like you said, is called the Father throughout the NT an innumerable amount of times. Never is God called the son, nor the Spirit.

    I am convinced that this doctrine is straight from the devil, the most diabolical and blasphemous doctrine in all of Christendom.
     
  17. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,751
    Likes Received:
    416
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Evidence of this is how trinitarians subordinate how one may be saved with their doctrine, AS IF the central point of the Bible is The nature of God is triune and if one does not believe this, one cannot be saved.
     
  18. reformed1689

    reformed1689 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,418
    Likes Received:
    1,181
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I don't need to watch anything. I know what Scripture says and what its PLAIN MEANING is.
     
  19. DNB

    DNB Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,252
    Likes Received:
    1,361
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    Yes, that's true, isn't it? There is something very incriminating about how they insist that the acceptance of this doctrine, is integral to Salvation. I'm at a loss right now to think of another precept, outside of the cross of Christ, that has been stated to threaten one's Redemption?

    But, on that note, Wrangler, I personally believe that one cannot be saved if they are trinitarian? If, for one, it's true how we both accept that the tenet is from the devil, then that alone is a valid concern of what it would lead to. And, secondly, I said that this doctrine was blasphemous because it is so defamatory to God's ontology and wisdom. This is the irony, the real indicting irony.
     
    Wrangler likes this.
  20. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,751
    Likes Received:
    416
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    We all need grace. I reject the idea that our salvation depends on our doctrinal purity. Most people I know do not think it through; they just accept what they were taught as children. They may be victims of evil but are not evil. Gullible, perhaps.

    Because Jesus is our only mediator to God, the theological significance of him NOT being God cannot be understated. By contrast, there is nothing theologically gained by supposing the Father, alone is God.

    Ever read When Jesus Became God by Rubenstein?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...