1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured The Case Against the Trinity

Discussion in 'Unorthodox Doctrine Forum' started by Wrangler, Feb 14, 2021.

  1. reformed1689

    reformed1689 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,418
    Likes Received:
    1,181
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    To deny the Trinity means to deny the True God. So are you really following God if you deny the Trinity? Questions to ponder....
     
  2. DNB

    DNB Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,252
    Likes Received:
    1,361
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    @Wrangler
    But, apparently you don't R1689. The art of exegesis is recognizing when a passage is to be taken literal, or when it is employing a literary device, ...like antanaclasis in John 1:1.
    Antanaclasis is when the same word is used several times within the same sentence, but each time that it's used, it has a different meaning than before. For if one takes the verse, as you suggest, literally, then there is no coherence over all - one has to isolate each statement in the sentence, and ignore selected ones, in order to make your point.
    What does, '...and the Word was God, and was with God..' mean? God was with God, what moron would write a statement as such? According to convoluted trinitarian theology, only collectively they are God, since you (falsely) state that you are a monotheist. So, then, it should be rather that '..the Son was God, and was with the Father...' in order to support your implausible and incomprehensible doctrine.
     
  3. DNB

    DNB Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,252
    Likes Received:
    1,361
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    Sorry R1689, that can be said about every doctrine - any false doctrine is believing in another god.
    I pointed out why specifically, trinitarian theology is offensive, you cannot do that with Unitarianism, or pure monotheism. Again, you simply made a blanket statement that heresy does not gain God's approval - that's elementary, and we are all under that charge.

    You, claiming that God became man, and was mocked abused, and killed by His own creation, is undeniably more egregious.
     
  4. DNB

    DNB Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,252
    Likes Received:
    1,361
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    Well, entire doctrinal comprehension and fidelity may not be required, but it's not too hard to see how certain beliefs can be offensive to God. As a Unitarian, I'm less concerned whether I have all my eschatology or ecclesiology in order - I don't know how offensive one can be in those areas? But, calling God three persons, and one of those persons became human and has two natures, and was crucified, ... we're in a completey different and precarious realm now.

    No, I never read 'When Jesus Became God' by Rubenstein. I'll try and take a look tonight to see the outline.
    Thanks!
     
  5. reformed1689

    reformed1689 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,418
    Likes Received:
    1,181
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    This is about the dumbest thing I have heard. So now you know better than God what He should have written?
     
  6. reformed1689

    reformed1689 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,418
    Likes Received:
    1,181
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    If Jesus was not God, He had no power to save us.
     
  7. DNB

    DNB Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,252
    Likes Received:
    1,361
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    That's circular reasoning, obviously. My point was that the author was not trying to convey such an unfathomable and blasphemous doctrine, simply by the fact that he used the terminology and expression that he did.
     
  8. DNB

    DNB Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,252
    Likes Received:
    1,361
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    'This is about the dumbest thing I have heard. So now you know better than God what He should done for Redemption - sent Himself - to propitiate Himself?
    You trinitarians throw the most ridiculous clichés around, and have absolutely no awareness or shame of how utterly absurd your logic is, and how you define God's wisdom and judicial system as nothing but a superfluous act of bravado????.
     
  9. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,514
    Likes Received:
    2,355
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    Hello @justbyfaith,

    Such terms as 'hypostatic union' leave me cold I'm afraid. I prefer the simple Bible text.

    I am happy if you are acknowledging that the term 'God's only begotten Son' to be unique to the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Thank you
    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
  10. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,076
    Likes Received:
    294
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Yes. Elohim does not just mean God but heavenly beings, such as angels. And this one plural reference should not be given EQUAL weight to the >5,000 times God (not Elohim) refers to himself in the singular and is referred to in the singular.

    You have to keep in mind the context of the Bible. The entire Bible was written by unitarian authors, Jews, who reject the trinity to this day.

    From that perspective, it is silly to impose trinitarian interpretation onto the text. Finally, this thread is about making the case AGAINST, not debating the facts and arguments against.
     
  11. reformed1689

    reformed1689 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,418
    Likes Received:
    1,181
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    How is that dumb? If Jesus was not God, He would be a sinner like the rest of us.
     
  12. reformed1689

    reformed1689 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,418
    Likes Received:
    1,181
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    If Jesus was not God and merely human only, he would be a sinner like us and would not have been a sufficient sacrifice.
     
  13. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,514
    Likes Received:
    2,355
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    Hello @Wrangler

    You are right of course, we are going around in circles but some times we have to, in order to get a point across. The Lord Jesus Christ was called the firstborn in relation to specific things, yes: but in regard to His position as the Son of God, the only Begotten Son of God He stands alone.

    Believers are spoken of as having been born of God, yes, but that is in spirit, not in regard to the flesh.

    Thank you
    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
  14. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,076
    Likes Received:
    294
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    That is the interpretation of trinitarians. I meant to use the phrase first fruits, which implies a series of like to follow.

    The false deification of the man Jesus has, IMO, undermined what the Good News is; like Jesus who lead the way, we are the children of God, who have divinity within, sealed by the Holy Spirit of God.
     
  15. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,076
    Likes Received:
    294
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    No where is that in the Bible.
     
  16. reformed1689

    reformed1689 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,418
    Likes Received:
    1,181
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Which part?
     
  17. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,076
    Likes Received:
    294
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    That only God is an acceptable sacrifice to God.
     
  18. reformed1689

    reformed1689 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,418
    Likes Received:
    1,181
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Do you believe the sacrifice had to be sinless?
     
  19. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,514
    Likes Received:
    2,355
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    Hello @Wrangler,

    I do not acknowledge any category invented by man to pigeon-hole believers into one school of thought or another. Though I do categorically believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is both 'Son of God' and 'Son of Man'. I also believe that as 'Son of God' He is Deity. He is God manifested in the flesh. God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself.

    Praise His Holy Name!

    So we part company on this.

    Thank you
    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
  20. Michiah-Imla

    Michiah-Imla Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    887
    Likes Received:
    417
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    You don’t have to be God to be sinless.

    As the scripture says:

    Hebrews 4:15 KJV
    For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

    And the last part, “yet without sin” signifies that Christ overcame sin despite having the same temptations we have; the same urges.

    Yet without sin!

    But I heard many professing believers say that it was impossible for Christ to sin; which is heresy according to scripture. It seems many Christians are ignorant of the Bible they carry to their assemblies.
     
    DNB and Wrangler like this.
Loading...