The Case Against the Trinity

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Status
Not open for further replies.

101G

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2012
12,259
3,385
113
Mobile, Al.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This is an excellent assertion for another thread. Nowhere in the Bible is God incarnate prophesied.
Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you." REPROVED.
It does say God raised Jesus from the dead.
Jesus who is God raised his own body, John 2:19 "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
John 2:20 "Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?"
John 2:21 "But he spake of the temple of his body." REPROVED
Understanding language, logic and definitions, this means God was not made flesh but the one acting on flesh.
this means God was not made flesh, ERROR, made yes, in generatedbut not the Partaker of it. John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
but the one acting on flesh ERROR, dwelling in flesh as the equal share. he took on flesh in the "LIKENESS" of, of, of, men. REPROVED



PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

101G

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2012
12,259
3,385
113
Mobile, Al.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is no passage that assigns a name to us. The best you have is the isaiah passage where us is Isaiah and Most High.
ERROR, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he."
is this one person or two, notice the "WITH" in the verse.

your answer please.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

jaybird

Well-Known Member
Feb 29, 2016
1,595
559
113
ERROR, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he."
is this one person or two, notice the "WITH" in the verse.

your answer please.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
No where in that passage does it assign a name to the "us" in Gen 1 nor anywhere else. It's the Most High speaking, not Most High 1 talking to Most High 2
Where I am sitting the Most High is always one. I'm not a trinitarian so I never see it as three people talking to themselves.
 

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
13,402
5,009
113
55
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you." REPROVED

I have no idea what dots you suppose this connects as it says nothing about coming in the flesh.

Another trinitarian attempt at picking various verses, stitch them together out of context and transpose your dogma onto it.

The thing is the entire Bible is written by Unitarian (or monotheistic) Hebrews who reject the trinity to this day. The trinity is not in the Bible, not the word, not the idea. God, in his unitarian nature, raised Jesus from the dead. Care to construct a stronger anti-trinitarian statement? The head of Christ is God, in his unitarian nature.

'For us there is one God, the Father.'
1 Corinthians 8:6

3 But there is one thing I want you to know: The head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
1 Corinthians 11:3 (NLT)

 

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
13,402
5,009
113
55
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
well lets examine this scripture. Isaiah 6:8 "Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me." this is a

2 Attending him were mighty seraphim, each having six wings. With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they flew. 3 They were calling out to each other.

These seraphim are not God but elohim, heavenly beings (plural). God is included among the heavenly beings. Let's do more laps as we've covered this a dozen times already.

5,000 times God is referred to in the singular. But one time it appears in the plural. Trinitarian logic 5,000 < 1.
 

101G

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2012
12,259
3,385
113
Mobile, Al.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No where in that passage does it assign a name to the "us" in Gen 1 nor anywhere else. It's the Most High speaking, not Most High 1 talking to Most High 2
Where I am sitting the Most High is always one. I'm not a trinitarian so I never see it as three people talking to themselves.
so we can take it as you cannot answer the First and the Last question can you?

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

jaybird

Well-Known Member
Feb 29, 2016
1,595
559
113
so we can take it as you cannot answer the First and the Last question can you?

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
you asked if Is 41 4 was one person or two, i said one.
p 500 you asked who was coming to save us? i thought this was a rhetorical question. my answer would be the Most High.
 

101G

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2012
12,259
3,385
113
Mobile, Al.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I have no idea what dots you suppose this connects as it says nothing about coming in the flesh.
maybe you didn't read the scripture, Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you."
the one who came to save us came in flesh. Matthew 1:23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us." so Wrangler, how is God with us? answer by being in flesh like us.... in a body.
2 Attending him were mighty seraphim, each having six wings. With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they flew. 3 They were calling out to each other.

These seraphim are not God but elohim, heavenly beings (plural). God is included among the heavenly beings. Let's do more laps as we've covered this a dozen times already.
angels have nothing to do with God, and your last statement,
Wrangler said: ↑
5,000 times God is referred to in the singular. But one time it appears in the plural. Trinitarian logic 5,000 < 1.

this is a lie, Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." here God is in the (plural).
H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') n-m.
אֱלֹהֵי 'elohiy (el-o-hee') [alternate plural]
1. (literally) supreme ones.
2. (hence, in the ordinary sense) gods.
3. (specifically, in the plural, especially with the article) the Supreme God (i.e. the all supreme).
4. (sometimes) supreme, used as a superlative.
5. (occasionally, by way of deference) supreme magistrates, the highest magistrates of the land.
6. (also) the supreme angels (entities of unspecified type).
[plural of H433]
KJV: angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
Root(s): H433

HERE, God is used in the (singular)
H433 אֱלוֹהַּ 'elowahh (el-o'-ah) n-m.
אֱלֹהַּ 'eloahh (el-o'-ah) [shortened (rarely)]
1. one with supreme strength and ability.
2. the Supreme Being, God the Creator, Yahweh by name.
3. a supreme entity, a god-like creature (that is, one of God's supreme creations, or one of man's inventions).
[probably prolonged (emphat.) from H410]
KJV: God, god.

now another plural, Genesis 1:3 "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light."

Another, Exodus 3:6 "Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God."

Another, Deuteronomy 8:14 "Then thine heart be lifted up, and thou forget the LORD thy God, which brought thee forth out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage;"

Psalms 47:7 "For God is the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding."

well that's reproved.


PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

jaybird

Well-Known Member
Feb 29, 2016
1,595
559
113
this is a lie, Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." here God is in the (plural).
H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') n-m.
אֱלֹהֵי 'elohiy (el-o-hee') [alternate plural]
1. (literally) supreme ones.
2. (hence, in the ordinary sense) gods.
3. (specifically, in the plural, especially with the article) the Supreme God (i.e. the all supreme).
4. (sometimes) supreme, used as a superlative.
5. (occasionally, by way of deference) supreme magistrates, the highest magistrates of the land.
6. (also) the supreme angels (entities of unspecified type).
[plural of H433]
KJV: angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
Root(s): H433
PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

if this means trinity why did no one understand it this way until years after Jesus and the 12 were gone? dont you thnk thats a bit suspect?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wrangler

101G

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2012
12,259
3,385
113
Mobile, Al.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
you asked if Is 41 4 was one person or two, i said one.
ok, I must have missed... Good, now John 1:1, it it one person or TWO? John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." again "WITH" is here, so is it one person?....

now,

p 500 you asked who was coming to save us? i thought this was a rhetorical question. my answer would be the Most High.
Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you." so this is the MOST HIGH correct?

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 
Last edited:

101G

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2012
12,259
3,385
113
Mobile, Al.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
if this means trinity why did no one understand it this way until years after Jesus and the 12 were gone? dont you thnk thats a bit suspect?
that definition do not means a trinity, why do you say that?

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

jaybird

Well-Known Member
Feb 29, 2016
1,595
559
113
ok, I must have missed... Good, now John 1:1, it it one person or TWO? John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." again "WITH" is here, so is it one person?....

now,


Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you." so this is the MOST HIGH correct?

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

its the Most High in all of them, the One is always the source.

i see where you going, the word was the Most High and the word was Jesus therefore Jesus must be the Most High, doesnt work for me, this to me just means the spirit of the Most High was in Jesus. Jesus even tells us His works are not His but the Father working through Him, if He was the Most High He would have straight up said these are my works because Me and the Most High are one and the same. this is how an agent works, the powers of the Most High going through an agent. like the Is passage i posted earlier. who shall we send, did the Most High come down here or did He send an agent.
 

jaybird

Well-Known Member
Feb 29, 2016
1,595
559
113
that definition do not means a trinity, why do you say that?

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

trinity/many gods/many persons/many natures, 3 in 1, 1 in 3 or anything other than the one and only one Most High that Jews and Jesus have always believed.
why did no one get it?
 

101G

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2012
12,259
3,385
113
Mobile, Al.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
its the Most High in all of them, the One is always the source.

i see where you going, the word was the Most High and the word was Jesus therefore Jesus must be the Most High, doesnt work for me, this to me just means the spirit of the Most High was in Jesus. Jesus even tells us His works are not His but the Father working through Him, if He was the Most High He would have straight up said these are my works because Me and the Most High are one and the same. this is how an agent works, the powers of the Most High going through an agent. like the Is passage i posted earlier. who shall we send, did the Most High come down here or did He send an agent.

its the Most High in all of them, the One is always the source. so was the MOST HIGH G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') when the Son came ?
G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') v.
1. to make empty.
2. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify.
[from G2756]
KJV: make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain
Root(s): G2756

your answer please.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

101G

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2012
12,259
3,385
113
Mobile, Al.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
trinity/many gods/many persons/many natures, 3 in 1, 1 in 3 or anything other than the one and only one Most High that Jews and Jesus have always believed.
why did no one get it?
where do that say that in the definition?

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

jaybird

Well-Known Member
Feb 29, 2016
1,595
559
113
its the Most High in all of them, the One is always the source. so was the MOST HIGH G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') when the Son came ?
G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') v.
1. to make empty.
2. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify.
[from G2756]
KJV: make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain
Root(s): G2756

your answer please.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
was the Most High empty? no

where do that say that in the definition?

ohh goodness gracious, i tell you what, you pick a name, whatever name you want. and what ever that is, why did no one get it until after Jesus and the 12?
 

101G

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2012
12,259
3,385
113
Mobile, Al.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
was the Most High empty? no



ohh goodness gracious, i tell you what, you pick a name, whatever name you want. and what ever that is, why did no one get it until after Jesus and the 12?
GINOLJC, to all,
first thanks for the reply, second, we all was lie to, intentionally or not, I don't know, and it really don't matter now. but we all ourselves have no excuse either, for the truth was in the bible all the time. it was our own-selves who didn't read the bible for ourselves to confirm what we was taught, and we took the words of men and women on trust.

some did get it after the Lord Jesus and the 12, but others dominated with their misguided beliefs. see just as in what you said, above in the post of #513, 517. understand something the most hight is never divided, and the scripture that clearly tells us this is Isaiah 63:5 and confirmed in Isaiah chapter 53 as who the Lord Jesus is. once one gets the basic down then the gudiance of the Holy Spirit will fill in everything, I mean EVERYTHING.

the Holy Ghost, God himself, said it best, via his chosen apostle. Romans 15:4 "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope." if we understand the OT, then we can understand the NT. for I will say it again, the OT is the NT hidden, and the NT is the OT .........REVEALED.

so if One just start with God as the H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym of HIMSELF, who is the H433 אֱלוֹהַּ 'elowahh (el-o'-ah), the Father, everything, I mean EVERYTHING, will start to fall into place. get the beginning right, one will end up right.

so the bottomline...... God is a plurility of himself, in TIME, ORDER, RANK, and PLACE.... if one can get these basic understand down, then the bible will open up to them.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

jaybird

Well-Known Member
Feb 29, 2016
1,595
559
113
GINOLJC, to all,
first thanks for the reply, second, we all was lie to, intentionally or not, I don't know, and it really don't matter now. but we all ourselves have no excuse either, for the truth was in the bible all the time. it was our own-selves who didn't read the bible for ourselves to confirm what we was taught, and we took the words of men and women on trust.

some did get it after the Lord Jesus and the 12, but others dominated with their misguided beliefs. see just as in what you said, above in the post of #513, 517. understand something the most hight is never divided, and the scripture that clearly tells us this is Isaiah 63:5 and confirmed in Isaiah chapter 53 as who the Lord Jesus is. once one gets the basic down then the gudiance of the Holy Spirit will fill in everything, I mean EVERYTHING.

the Holy Ghost, God himself, said it best, via his chosen apostle. Romans 15:4 "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope." if we understand the OT, then we can understand the NT. for I will say it again, the OT is the NT hidden, and the NT is the OT .........REVEALED.

so if One just start with God as the H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym of HIMSELF, who is the H433 אֱלוֹהַּ 'elowahh (el-o'-ah), the Father, everything, I mean EVERYTHING, will start to fall into place. get the beginning right, one will end up right.

so the bottomline...... God is a plurility of himself, in TIME, ORDER, RANK, and PLACE.... if one can get these basic understand down, then the bible will open up to them.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
When one removes the trinity doctrine and understand that the Most High is one, just as Jesus and all Jews before have believed, it falls right into place. Until then your left trying to teach the the creator of all things talks to Himself, prays to Himself, and all the rest that make no sense.
IMO when the Most High says us He is talking to His divine council. It makes more sense than talking to Himself.
 

jaybird

Well-Known Member
Feb 29, 2016
1,595
559
113
"And he said, "Let us make man in our image and likeness" (Gen. 1:26). "And God created man to his own image." (Gen. 1:27)

Do you think "our image and likeness" in Gen. 1:26 refers to God and/or other beings, despite the following verse that says man was made to "his [God] own image?"
I think the Father is talking to His council, an agent, the Father uses agents all the time, they don't act on their own authority, they act on His, their work is His work.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wrangler

101G

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2012
12,259
3,385
113
Mobile, Al.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
When one removes the trinity doctrine and understand that the Most High is one, just as Jesus and all Jews before have believed, it falls right into place. Until then your left trying to teach the the creator of all things talks to Himself, prays to Himself, and all the rest that make no sense.
IMO when the Most High says us He is talking to His divine council. It makes more sense than talking to Himself.
Not true, who was the Most high talking to when he said, Genesis 1:3 "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light." and everywhere else where he said, "Let there be". well? ... because no one was around, but him.
and when he came to Genesis 1:26 he said "Let US, was he alone, YES, at that TIME. so was he speaking to himself? NO, but speaking by himself, concering HIMSELF to come. but was not God speaking all the time throught out the OT? yes. understand "J", in Hermeneutic, there is a near and far application study of the bible. listen, Genesis 11:7 "Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech."
Genesis 11:8 "So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city."

now Jaybird, did you see the "US" there in the Verse? is this just as the "US" as in Genesis 1:26? yes. let us tell you the revelation,
A. the "US" was to come. why? listen, because God was to confuse the language, and scatter the people. correct. ok, listen to the verses before....

Genesis 11:5 "And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded."
Genesis 11:6 "And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do."
Genesis 11:7 "Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech."
STOP, DID YOU SEE IT? in verse 5 the LORD came Down.... already, so why did he say in verse 7 AFTER verse 5, "let, let, let, US go down when he was already DOWN? don't make sense do it? well it makes FAITH, and here's why. as said in Hermeneutic, there is a study called near and far application. meaning something happening how will have an effect on somethin in the future in the same context. here, God confounded the Language of the people, and scattered them abroad, correct. well the far application of this, came on the Day of Pentecoast when God made the confounded language, one as before, (all understood). and instead of scattered them abroad, ...... from abroad, he gathered them together. BINGO, keep this in MIND of the Near and Far application of Hermeneutic. now lets apply the same application to Genesis 1.

in Genesis 1, God, as said, was already speaking. "Let there be", there is that same word, "let", well, "Let there be this and that on each day". ok, God has already spoken. Just like when he has already come down to the city and tower of Babel, already came down, before he said, let US, right. now Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."
BINGO,. let us make man, now the NEAR, and FAR, application of Hermeneutic in use. lets understand. the NEAR application, Let US make man, and man was made by God, (one person, because of Genesis 1:27). now the Far application, Galatians 4:4 "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law," BINGO, when in the fullness of time, remember as I said, "TIME", PLACE, ORDER, and RANK. the "TIME" of God coming in flesh, (his OWN image), "MADE" of a woman, meaning the IMAGE, that FIGURE, or FASHION, or the BODY, GOD "CAME" IN, WAS GENERATED in the BELLY of a woman, (Romans 5:14b, Gal 4:4). the PLACE, when God sent his angel to the virgin Mary, and the saviour was born in the city of David, (Luke 2:11). and the ORDER, is the Last, or the Last Adam, (1 Corinthians 15:45).

see it now "J?", God was to "COME", the likeness of his OWN, OWN, OWN, IMAGE ..... MAN, which was to come, the NEW MAN, or the LAST Adam. and that happen at John 1:1... My GOD this is revelation upon revelation.

God was speaking at Genesis 1:26, of himself to come as the LAST ADAM, his "ANOTHER" of himself to Come, this is why God is called an H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem'), here, and not the H433 אֱלוֹהַּ 'elowahh (el-o'-ah) when speaking of himself to come in flesh, do you fully understand this?. this was fulfilled, Galatians 4:4, and John 1:14. GOD was speaking of himself to come in flesh.. HIS, HIS, HIS, own IMAGE... "MAN". supportive scripture, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" Philippians 2:7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:" BINGO, this just answered Genesis 1:26. Philippians 2:8 "And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

understand now Jaybird, the "US" and "OUR" is to COME, in which, the Hermeneutic NEAR, and FAR application is clearly excuted by our God, shows who is as an H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem'), meaning that he's the ECHAD of his OWN-SELF, which is the H433 אֱלוֹהַּ 'elowahh (el-o'-ah), the ONE TRUE AND LIVING, GOD, ... JESUS the almighty. BINGO, :eek: YIKES!. not only did I go bible on you only, but I used worldy educational application also with the use of Hermeneutic NEAR, and FAR application. now you have the bible facts, and to back this up, in educational application.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 
Status
Not open for further replies.