The Case Against the Trinity

[jaybird]

So, man is made to the image and likeness of God and another being (Gen. 1:26), despite the following verse saying man is made to only God's own image? (Gen. 1:27)

the other being, whether its one being or 50 million are never gonna be the authority. the Most High is the source of all creation no matter how many beings He uses. the other beings are not relevant. when the Most High uses an agent to create something, the end result is a creation of the Most High. the agents do not create in their name, they create in the name of the Father, thats why Jesus said over and over He came in the name of the Father.
if Jesus was the Most High there would be no need for Him to claim He came in the name of anyone, the Most High acts on His own authority, He does not need the authority of anyone.

 

[jaybird]

You said God was talking to His "council" when He said, "Let us make man to our image and likeness (Gen. 1:26). You are saying man was made in the image and likeness of God and His council, whoever or whatever they may be, despite the following verse that says we were made to the image and likeness of God's own image. Explain how that works.

did you not read the explanation? lets try it another way.
who destroyed sodom and gomorra?

 

[jaybird]

I have no idea what dots you suppose this connects as it says nothing about coming in the flesh.

Another trinitarian attempt at picking various verses, stitch them together out of context and transpose your dogma onto it.

The thing is the entire Bible is written by Unitarian (or monotheistic) Hebrews who reject the trinity to this day. The trinity is not in the Bible, not the word, not the idea. God, in his unitarian nature, raised Jesus from the dead. Care to construct a stronger anti-trinitarian statement? The head of Christ is God, in his unitarian nature.

'For us there is one God, the Father.'
1 Corinthians 8:6

3 But there is one thing I want you to know: The head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
1 Corinthians 11:3 (NLT)

that does not sound co equal at all to me. sounds like what many of the early church fathers such as Tertullian believed. Ironic that trins today associate him as one of the founders of the trinity when he himself always maintained the Father was greater and the Father and son were not co equal. He maintained that Father and Son were of the same substance, but in Greek thought, where the whole "substance" thing comes from, man and fox are of the same substance. same substance never meant co equal.
but thats not how these things are taught today. so how do these ideas get flipped on their head?

 

[jaybird]

The answer to that question does not answer mine. I am focusing on the image and likeness man was made. You say we are made to the image and likeness of God and His "council" (Gen. 1:26). However, in Gen. 1:27 we read man was made only to God's image and likeness. How can man's image and likeness be to that of God and His council as well as only to God? In other words, explain how we have features of God and His council, but also just features of God, at the same time?

im trying to answer you but you keep ducking and dodging. lets try a third time.

Angels destroy Sodom and Gomorrah:

Genesis 19 12-13
12Then the men said to Lot, “Have you anyone else here? Sons-in-law, sons, daughters, or anyone you have in the city, bring them out of the place. 13For we are about to destroy this place, because the outcry against its people has become great before the Lord, and the Lord has sent us to destroy it.”

the Most High destroys Sodom and Gomorrah:

Genesis 19 23 - 24
God Destroys Sodom
23The sun had risen on the earth when Lot came to Zoar. 24Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the Lord out of heaven.

now are you saying that there is a conflict in scripture, angels destroy Sodom in one passage, and the Father destroys Sodom in another passage? if we follow your trin logic of course its a conflict, but if we let the scripture speak for themselves, the Father dstroys Sodom and He did it through His angel agents. this is how agency works. no one has ever questioned this, this has never been an issue with Jews or Christians, it only becomes a problem when trins come along and try to destroy the whole agency idea because it conflicts with their doctrine.
let it go, you have been refuted.

 

[Brakelite]

this is what the Bible is talking about... unlearned men just running their mouths. if you just want to have a regular conversation, this is what Facebook and twitter are for...
but if you have a revelation as to what I said, and your statement.anything else it's just vain jangling.
this is only, A. a wist of time, B. a distraction from the topic.


now as for messingers, it is HUMAN men whom God has for the MESSAGE of "SALVATION", and not angels. because we have the HOLY SPIRIT.... GOD HIMSELF in us what else God need? the message of "Salvation" is for men and by men, hence the GREAT COMMISSION.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

How would you explain Revelation 14:6-12?

 

[jaybird]

I am not talking about the act itself of making man to the image and likeness of x, rather the image and likeness itself that we are made to. Refer back to #548.

It's the image of the Most High like I have said so many times.

 

[Wrangler]

so how do these ideas get flipped on their head?

Because they do not start out with the truth:
1. The entire Bible is written by monotheists (unitarians), who have rejected the trinity concept for 1,000’s of years.
2. Jesus was a Jew, born under the law, who was also a unitarian as Mark 12:28-31 definitively demonstrate.
3. Jesus repeatedly affirmed God was greater than he, knew more than he, he only said what God told him and he was sent by God.
4. The resurrected Jesus said he was going to his God in John 20:17. The only God is Jesus’ God.
5. The Apostles consistently opened their letters defying the trinity, acknowledging the only 2 beings relevant to their lives, God and his Servant Messiah.

Instead, trinitarians start with their doctrine and impose a trinitarian interpretation onto the unitarian text.

This is why they ignore and balk at my previous point. Resorting to insults or personal attacks is how you know they have lost the argument. If the plural ‘our’ is important in Genesis, the singular ‘me’ in the 1C must be even more important.

 

[101G]

I take you relying on personal attack as an admission of defeat.

personal attack? where, nope, only truth......... for victory. or like your

and as for personal attacks, I care less, when you,

The projecting man-is-God thesis onto the text is impressive mental gymnastics

well did I even respond to the mental gymnastics poke?.... no, because personal attack I care less about, only when I'm missed quoted, I will warn you........ anything else, concering God word, if you are in error, you will be reprove.

so personal attacks check your ownself "FIRST"..

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[101G]

What are you talking about??

Job 38 4,7
4“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?

Tell me, if you have understanding.

7when the morning stars sang together

and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

its always been a mystery exactly when angels were created some say before earth, some after but the facts we do know is they existed before man was created because the Job passage has them singing during the creation process.

so now your going to turn this scripture aside, just to make the doctrine work?

you must not fully read the post?

7when the morning stars sang together. THEY ARE THE ACTUAL STARS IN HEAVEN, AND THEY SANG BY SHINING THEIR LIGHT.

and all the sons of God shouted for joy? THE SONS OF GOD HERE IS THE, "SUN", AND THE "MOON", ALL METAPHOR

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[101G]

How would you explain Revelation 14:6-12?

first thanks for the reply, second, my explanation is never required, the bible gives us the explanation. remember this is a REVELATION of Jesus Christ ok, and it is signified. which means, idea expressed by a sign, as distinct from the physical form in which it is expressed. now, your answer, we only needed the first verse, Revelation 14:6 "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,"
here the term angel is simply messenger, human or angelic. and here it's HUMAN, supportive scripture, Revelation 1:20 "The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches." BINGO there is your answer, the seven angels of the seven churches are human overeseers, bishops, pastors, the five fold ministry. and the "Flying", as in angles of the heavenly kind, like the angel Gabriel who used his wings to come and go, or CARRY a messeage from God, listen, Romans 10:15 "And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" here, it is our feet that are to move, or CARRY the gospel unto the ends of the earth, (all Nations), this is the great comminission, GO, how, on feet, and by boat, and horse and cart. just as the feet of the unrighteous to carry untruths, or another gospel, Romans 3:15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood:" BINGO.
and as for in "HEAVEN", the answer is where God first stated this event at and for, Isaiah 52:7 "How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!". here the mountians, (churches), reach into heaven where we're seated. just as earthly mountians phyically reach into heaven the FIRST HEAVEN our upper atmosphere, so our singafication is complete by scripture. understand, the scriptures needs no private interpretation, (2 Peter 1:20)
understand if the Gospel was to be preached by angels, a good example of this would be the account in Acts chapter 10. when the heavenly angel came to Cornelius, and the angel told him to send for who? ........... the apostle Peter, for humans was commission by God, the Lord Jesus, to Go into all the world and "PREACH" the gospel, hence the "GREAT COMMISSION".

thanks for the question, hoped it helped.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[jaybird]

Because they do not start out with the truth:
1. The entire Bible is written by monotheists (unitarians), who have rejected the trinity concept for 1,000’s of years.
2. Jesus was a Jew, born under the law, who was also a unitarian as Mark 12:28-31 definitively demonstrate.
3. Jesus repeatedly affirmed God was greater than he, knew more than he, he only said what God told him and he was sent by God.
4. The resurrected Jesus said he was going to his God in John 20:17. The only God is Jesus’ God.
5. The Apostles consistently opened their letters defying the trinity, acknowledging the only 2 beings relevant to their lives, God and his Servant Messiah.

Instead, trinitarians start with their doctrine and impose a trinitarian interpretation onto the unitarian text.

This is why they ignore and balk at my previous point. Resorting to insults or personal attacks is how you know they have lost the argument. If the plural ‘our’ is important in Genesis, the singular ‘me’ in the 1C must be even more important.

I agree without the doctrine already established you would never conclude a trinity in these passages
The discussions can get a bit frustrating. Like Jesus and the scribe agreeing the Most High is one, I showed and explained this to one of these guys, his response, Jesus agrees with the trinity because Jews and Christian both believe in one, then you go back and explain jews and Christian define "one" different, response, but they agree He is one. And your thinking how does this guy not see the problem? And that's the thing, some of these guys refuse at all cost to admit the doctrine does not work.
Another problem, after it's all said and done, in the end how does this doctrine help you, the Father can make Himself a man, ok how does that improve me? Interesting but I don't see how it benefits us, the Father can do all things anyway. No different than things were before Jesus came.
Jesus is a man, He did things as a man, this helps me, this serves as an example I can follow, if Jesus can do it I can do it. When you make Jesus the Most High, now I can no longer follow that example. How does one follow in the footsteps of the creater of the heavens and earth. That's to overwhelming for me.
Jesus taught follow me, trinity teaches He is not one of us and can not be followed.
Trinity also teaches the Father, Son and Spirit are all one, they are part of this family which leaves us on the outside looking in. That doesn't sound good.

 

[jaybird]

you must not fully read the post?

7when the morning stars sang together. THEY ARE THE ACTUAL STARS IN HEAVEN, AND THEY SANG BY SHINING THEIR LIGHT.

and all the sons of God shouted for joy? THE SONS OF GOD HERE IS THE, "SUN", AND THE "MOON", ALL METAPHOR

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

I'm sorry 10g but sons of the Most High and morning stars are real living beings. Jesus and Satan were morning stars and sons of the Most High are throughout the bible. If there is no consistency, if definitions change every other passage, then the bible wouldn't be much use for anything as you could just make things up as you go. You shall not steal, just being metaphorical let's go out and steal a car.

 

[101G]

I'm sorry 10g but sons of the Most High and morning stars are real living beings. Jesus and Satan were morning stars and sons of the Most High are throughout the bible. If there is no consistency, if definitions change every other passage, then the bible wouldn't be much use for anything as you could just make things up as you go. You shall not steal, just being metaphorical let's go out and steal a car.

see "J" this is the problem. one cannot tell if God is using a metaphor or not, BUT the HOLY GHOST DO. listen, Psalms 65:13 "The pastures are clothed with flocks; the valleys also are covered over with corn; they shout for joy, they also sing. so tell us how do a pasture or a valley sing?
or Psalms 148:3 "Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light." how do the sun and the stares praise God?..... well.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus taught follow me, trinity teaches He is not one of us and can not be followed.
Trinity also teaches the Father, Son and Spirit are all one, they are part of this family which leaves us on the outside looking in. That doesn't sound good.

What an outstanding post!

 

[Brakelite]

first thanks for the reply, second, my explanation is never required, the bible gives us the explanation. remember this is a REVELATION of Jesus Christ ok, and it is signified. which means, idea expressed by a sign, as distinct from the physical form in which it is expressed. now, your answer, we only needed the first verse, Revelation 14:6 "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,"
here the term angel is simply messenger, human or angelic. and here it's HUMAN, supportive scripture, Revelation 1:20 "The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches." BINGO there is your answer, the seven angels of the seven churches are human overeseers, bishops, pastors, the five fold ministry. and the "Flying", as in angles of the heavenly kind, like the angel Gabriel who used his wings to come and go, or CARRY a messeage from God, listen, Romans 10:15 "And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" here, it is our feet that are to move, or CARRY the gospel unto the ends of the earth, (all Nations), this is the great comminission, GO, how, on feet, and by boat, and horse and cart. just as the feet of the unrighteous to carry untruths, or another gospel, Romans 3:15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood:" BINGO.
and as for in "HEAVEN", the answer is where God first stated this event at and for, Isaiah 52:7 "How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!". here the mountians, (churches), reach into heaven where we're seated. just as earthly mountians phyically reach into heaven the FIRST HEAVEN our upper atmosphere, so our singafication is complete by scripture. understand, the scriptures needs no private interpretation, (2 Peter 1:20)
understand if the Gospel was to be preached by angels, a good example of this would be the account in Acts chapter 10. when the heavenly angel came to Cornelius, and the angel told him to send for who? ........... the apostle Peter, for humans was commission by God, the Lord Jesus, to Go into all the world and "PREACH" the gospel, hence the "GREAT COMMISSION".

thanks for the question, hoped it helped.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

I have a slightly different interpretation. I agree that it is a human task to preach the gospel. But God is love, and where humans are absent and the people are open, angels will assist as humans to minister to fallen man. I have heard testimonies of missionaries going into remote areas where no Christian had been before and the people there are converted and observing the Sabbath. I have also heard testimony of angels intervening to save lives.
As for Revelation 14, and Revelation 1:20, I believe there is a hierarchy of unseen angels overseeing the work of the gospel, with individual churches under their care. There are angels also given responsibility for nations, as hints of this we can see in Daniel 10:13.
I believe there are numerous angels continually traveling between heaven and earth carrying out various tasks as required to bring mankind to salvation, and the nations to fulfill prophecy. What we often term as the work of the holy Spirit of God I see as God working through angels to do His bidding.

 

[101G]

I have a slightly different interpretation. I agree that it is a human task to preach the gospel. But God is love, and where humans are absent and the people are open, angels will assist as humans to minister to fallen man. I have heard testimonies of missionaries going into remote areas where no Christian had been before and the people there are converted and observing the Sabbath. I have also heard testimony of angels intervening to save lives.
As for Revelation 14, and Revelation 1:20, I believe there is a hierarchy of unseen angels overseeing the work of the gospel, with individual churches under their care. There are angels also given responsibility for nations, as hints of this we can see in Daniel 10:13.
I believe there are numerous angels continually traveling between heaven and earth carrying out various tasks as required to bring mankind to salvation, and the nations to fulfill prophecy. What we often term as the work of the holy Spirit of God I see as God working through angels to do His bidding.

first thanks for your reply, and your opinion. I know God can do anything, and anything he wants, but I still stand on his word. just as he entrusted men to write down his words in what we have the bible. I have not found one BIBLE BOOK named after a angel who was a witness to the Gospel for God.... if you know of any books in the bible that is after an angelic commission, please bring it to my attention.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[Brakelite]

but I still stand on his word.

But you aren't. You are saying that when angels are mentioned in scripture, they are actually men. And you then dare to say that we shouldn't use private interpretation? You quoted assume scriptures to support your theory, but your theory came first, not scripture. I simply take the Bible as it reads unless there's a very good reason to suppose a passage is symbolic. I have never seen an angel used symbolically except when referring directly to the Son of God... Which no doubt throws you into a loop.

 

[jaybird]

see "J" this is the problem. one cannot tell if God is using a metaphor or not, BUT the HOLY GHOST DO. listen, Psalms 65:13 "The pastures are clothed with flocks; the valleys also are covered over with corn; they shout for joy, they also sing. so tell us how do a pasture or a valley sing?
or Psalms 148:3 "Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light." how do the sun and the stares praise God?..... well.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

Psalm 65 is about the Lord providing and all those that partake in the Lords bounty are blessed and sing praise. I dont think its the pasture and valley but those living there.

But lets say it is talking about a pasture and valley, IMO I dont think it would be a good example as no one would get these confused with living intelligent self aware beings.

The 148 is metaphors, this one, for me, is easy to see as the passage is about praising the Lord from one end of the universe to the other, all things praise Him, from the angels in the heavens to the mountains, hills, fruit trees, creeping things, flying birds, in other words all things big and small praise Him.


The Job passage is not like this, the ones that praised the Lords creation are the Morning stars, sons of the Most High. Thats it. Now if the passage continued with the oceans, birds, trees, fish, etc all singing, that would be a valid point. Or if the passage said stars and only stars and not morning stars and sons of the Most High, that would be a valid point.

Stars will always be stars but when you add morning to make morning star, thats a title to a living being. Benei elohim has never been used to define stars, I dont think either term has been used to define actual stars.

 

[jaybird]

If you agree man was made to the image and likeness of God, then it does not make sense for you to say angels also created man in God's image, and refer to Gen. 1:26 as support, because in that verse, if we read it according to your logic, then man was made to the image and likeness of angels, too, which is false.

the bible says angels destroyed sodom
the bible says the Lord destroyed sodom

who destroyed sodom?

 

[jaybird]

What an outstanding post!

thanks wrangler your alright.