The Case for Eternal Security

[St. SteVen]

I run into guys who went from devout Baptist to downright hostile to God.

From post #47.

That's funny. I thought Baptists were "downright hostile to God." - LOL

I mean... the way they talk about him... I would be insulted, wouldn't you?

/

 

[Behold]

We cannot by an act of our own will undo what only God could do in the first place.

We can't save ourselves to begin with......

So what does that mean as it relates to Jesus, who is our Salvation?

It simply means that you have no control over What Jesus has Accomplished.

Look at it like this..

READER..
= Lets say you are an Avowed Atheist.. So, you are a professional unbeliever...

So, does all your unbelief stop Jesus from being The Savior?
Nope. It just stop Him from being YOURS..
He's Still the LORD Jesus The Christ and the SAViOR , no matter if you dont believe it.
You will later, but today, you are "of your opinions" about it.
Ok, NP> that is on you, not on God, as God has offered YOU< the way to come to HIM... and you dont want it today.
So, that is on YOU.... and if you die like that, then its on you after you die, and that is a never going to be taken away from YOU.
Christ Rejection, is ETERNAL... and the consequences of it, last as long as THE CHRIST you rejected, lives..

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Its like this Born Again reader...
How we feel today, or what we think tomorrow.....Has no effect on what Jesus told us all .. is "FINISHED".. when He was about to Die on The Cross..., and has now completed it.
"IT" is FINISHED" and that is God's Eternal Redemption.

See that "REDEMPTION"?
= IT is finished, 2000 yrs ago., and if you dont have it, then "today is the day of Salvation" and you need to get it... today... now.

Listen,
Jesus Rose from the Dead, to prove He Truly Finished >IT<.... on THE Cross..., and He went to Heaven and "sat down", because our Salvation = (IT) = is completed. ("Finished").

Jesus is Salvation.. and not you trying to do IT...

Understand?

He did IT.., and WE get IT.
= IT's = "the GIFT of Salvation"..

So, and think now.......think..

If the Atheist can't stop Jesus from being THE Savior, then if JESUS has become YOURS< then do you think you can stop Him now that He has become yours?

Now, who will say yes?

Its only the people whose faith is broken, or its only the people who are not born again yet., and that is often just someone who is water baptized and RELIGIOUS.

You can't Lose your Salvation, as "Christ in you, the Hope of Glory" is not going to Leave YOU< and you are going to end up where HE is, after you die, or when you are Raptured.

= Believe it., .....and never doubt your Salvation, = who is JESUS......Who "finished it"..., and He succeeded.

Believe IT.

 

[Behold]

But, as you know, God is continually saving us, and we are "working out our salvation".
Which does NOT mean that we are saving ourselves, OR that we are not yet saved. IMO

Reader..

We the born again.........who have Trusted in Christ, who IS OUR Salvation..... = is still our Salvation, 1 Billion Billion years from a Billion years from now.

Jesus is our Salvation, forever..... and that is why our Salvation will last as long as He does.

And regarding "working out YOUR Salvation",......

= Notice "Your"?

That means its become Yours... You are not earning it, .. .You are IN IT.

Reader, it means that if you are 'Born AGAIN, then God has given you "The GIFT of Salvation" and you now HAVE IT.

A BETTER WAY to realize this, is... God's Salvation has YOU........as "in Christ".

It has You....... You are bought with it, (Blood Atonement) redeemed by it (New Covenant) , and kept for Eternal Life, because of it.

= "The Gift of Eternal Life".

So, what now?
Now that you have it.....what now?

"do good works'........somebody yells from the Front Row....

Ok,..... but an unbeliever can do those?
An Unbeliever can do every good work you can do....

So, WHAT NOW?

Here is what..

A.) "work out your Salvation with AWE and WONDER".... is how i teach my class to understand "fear and trembling".

Maybe that can help you see it more clearly....., as its best to see it in a way that makes it beautiful, vs....some other wrong understanding that is not being meant by "fear and trembling".

So....Let me show you this before the "errors in the Bible"....(types), start foaming at their mouth.....

Listen..
When God led the Jews out of Egypt (Exodus).. He showed them many amazing SIGNS (Signs are for the Jew...1 Corinthians 1:22).... that proved He Is God and He is their God..... and He was making it all happen right before their wide open eyes.
They would see some of these GOD Events, and just tremble with AWE.... which is a type of "fear" that isn't to be scared.....
Its to be profoundly and utterly AMAZED.. beyond comprehension.

And that is the "fear of the Lord"...that is the "beginning of Wisdom".. as that type of "fear" is genuine respect regarding understanding the POWER of God Almighty and His Majesty..
So, get that perception of what God has done for you, regarding Jesus ON the Cross, and you'll have a truly panoramic view.... of God's Amazing GRACE.

So,

To work out your salvation, simply means...= now that you have it, you have to deeply and inwardly learn what you have... and that is to find God's perspective regarding HOW HE views the Born again CHIRSTian... as a "new Creation in Christ".

.........."well behold, how i see that""'... is why you have no clue, some of you.

You have to get GOD's perspective to understand your Salvation........the depths of it...as its DEEP and its AWESOME.

You have to get HIS MIND on that, and keep it... or your mind is wrong and that can ruin your faith.

Now, let me show you an example of a Believer who is still in their spiritual Diapers, and this can be for 50 yrs...

READ : Hebrews 6:1. ,and dont be that one..

And if that verse is talking about you, then you have some GROWING in GRACE to do, and that is all about understanding who you have become "IN Christ" and what that means.
And when you do understand it. correctly .then you'll read that the born again have become "The Righteousness of God, in Christ'" and you'll not only understand it, but you'll say, = """THANK YOU JESUS."" !!

 

[St. SteVen]

Jesus Rose from the Dead, to prove He Truly Finished >IT<.... on THE Cross..., and He went to Heaven and "sat down", because our Salvation = (IT) = is completed. ("Finished").

Jesus is Salvation.. and not you trying to do IT...

Understand?

He did IT.., and WE get IT.
= IT's = "the GIFT of Salvation"..

On this point we agree.

= Believe it., .....and never doubt your Salvation, = who is JESUS......Who "finished it"..., and He succeeded.

Believe IT.

Never doubt?
Good luck with that.
Any consequences of doubt?

To work out your salvation, simply means...= now that you have it, you have to deeply and inwardly learn what you have... and that is to find God's perspective regarding HOW HE views the Born again CHIRSTian... as a "new Creation in Christ".

.........."well behold, how i see that""'... is why you have no clue, some of you.

You have to get GOD's perspective to understand your Salvation........the depths of it...as its DEEP and its AWESOME.

You have to get HIS MIND on that, and keep it... or your mind is wrong and that can ruin your faith.

Have to? And keep it? If "your mind is wrong and that can ruin your faith"?
What happened to the finished work of salvation you were just writing about?
Undone by our failure to work out our salvation, or by any doubts?
You seem to have turned the good news into bad news.

Can one slip up on our part really UNDO everything God has done through Christ? (nope)

From the OP:

We cannot by an act of our own will undo what only God could do in the first place.
Even in the case of Reprobation, it is God's choice, not ours. And his aim is to return the lost sheep to the fold.
He is, after all, the Good Shepherd. - St. SteVen

/

 

[O'Darby]

On this point we agree.


Never doubt?
Good luck with that.
Any consequences of doubt?


Have to? And keep it? If "your mind is wrong and that can ruin your faith"?
What happened to the finished work of salvation you were just writing about?
Undone by our failure to work out our salvation, or by any doubts?
You seem to have turned the good news into bad news.

Can one slip up on our part really UNDO everything God has done through Christ? (nope)

From the OP:

We cannot by an act of our own will undo what only God could do in the first place.
Even in the case of Reprobation, it is God's choice, not ours. And his aim is to return the lost sheep to the fold.
He is, after all, the Good Shepherd. - St. SteVen

/

@Behold is one of characters who is in a Monty Python skit and doesn't know it. As I've said repeatedly, if some of these folks didn't exist I'd have to invent them. Which doesn't mean they aren't wonderful Christians, just that they are so one-dimensionally predictable that they make useful foils. It reminds me of a Monty Python "Shakespeare for Parrots" sketch where everyone was dressed in full Shakespearean finery but all that everyone ever did was cock his or her head and squawk "Hello, hello."

We O'Darbians are not Eternal Securitists (did I just invent that?). We believe, with the Orthodox, that being born again opens the door to salvation. "Faith" is a lifelong process. Whether we continued in faith will be determined when God, if He exists, tells us we did (or didn't, as the case may be). There are no particular criteria. No particular quantum of doubt or sin will constitute "loss of faith." Faith is simply a matter of contnuing to do our best to live as though the Christian message were true. Flat-out apostasy or living as though the Christian message were flat-out false will probably not constitute faith. O'Darbians see this as both more consistent with the NT teachings and as simply making more sense and making the Christian walk more meaningful.

It simply makes no sense that Harry the Mass Murder receives salvation because he sincerely "accepted Jesus" after being presented with The Four Spiritual Laws at the age of 78 but Amir the faithful fifth-generation Hindu in New Delhi who was once witnessed to for eight minutes by a clumsy, ineffectual Southern Baptist missionarty is going to cook for eternity like a KFC chicken (to borrow @Webers_Home's unintentionally comical imagery). Whatever salvation is all about, it is surely more profound than Eternal Security and probably much more profound than what I describe above.

 

[St. SteVen]

one of characters who is in a Monty Python skit and doesn't know it. As I've said repeatedly, if some of these folks didn't exist I'd have to invent them. Which doesn't mean they aren't wonderful Christians, just that they are so one-dimensionally predictable that they make useful foils.

LOL

It reminds me of a Monty Python "Shakespeare for Parrots" sketch where everyone was dressed in full Shakespearean finery but all that everyone ever did was cock his or her head and squawk "Hello, hello."

Oh my. I need to find that online. - LOL
I'll never forgive a friend of mine that introduced me to Mr. Creosote.

We O'Darbians are not Eternal Securitists (did I just invent that?).

Didn't come up on spell-check. Must be real.
Oops, wait... now it is. Yup, you probably coined that one.
You have minted quite a few. The Franklin Mint might be interested in marketing these.

It simply makes no sense that Harry the Mass Murder receives salvation because he sincerely "accepted Jesus" after being presented with The Four Spiritual Laws at the age of 78 but Amir the faithful fifth-generation Hindu in New Delhi who was once witnessed to for eight minutes by a clumsy, ineffectual Southern Baptist missionarty is going to cook for eternity like a KFC chicken (to borrow @Webers_Home's unintentionally comical imagery). Whatever salvation is all about, it is surely more profound than Eternal Security and probably much more profound than what I describe above.

That's a great point.

The answer from UR is that everyone will be accountable for their deeds whether good or evil.
The wood, hay and stubble will burn, after our deeds are displayed to all in attendance. (for shame)
Why it requires an entire Age of Restoration. Every knee will bow and every tongue acknowledge...

In this case the good deeds of Amir will bode him well, and the evil deeds of Harry will NOT bode him well.
Like a barnacle covered hull in need of a severe scraping. (ouch) Weeping and gnashing of teeth.

/

 

[O'Darby]

Oh my. I need to find that online. - LOL

You can't. I've looked and looked. There is a famous Dead Parrot skit, but Shakespeare for Parrots is nowhere to be found.

 

[Rightglory]

This is typically discussed under the derogatory term OSAS (once saved always saved)
So, I wanted to present the topic under positive terms.
To me, the comparison is between Eternal Security and Eternal Insecurity. (my own derogatory term)

Those who oppose OSAS (Eternal Security) usually don't realize what they are throwing away.

My position on the subject is as follows. (which I have posted many times on the forum)

We cannot by an act of our own will undo what only God could do in the first place.
Even in the case of Reprobation, it is God's choice, not ours. And his aim is to return the lost sheep to the fold.
He is, after all, the Good Shepherd. - St. SteVen

I found this list of seven principles online that I thought was pretty good. Source link at the bottom of the page.
There are other presentations available with a lot more items.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

7 Proofs Your Salvation Is Eternally Secure ​

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;
no one will snatch them out of my hand. - John 10:28 NIV

And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice
of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. - Hebrews 10:10 NIV

When you first believed in Jesus, you were saved.
But after a while, perhaps because you sinned or failed God in some way, maybe you began to question whether it’s possible to lose your salvation.
A genuine believer in the Lord Jesus shouldn’t be tormented by this question.
The Bible tells us that once we believe in Jesus Christ, we can never lose our salvation.
In this post we’ll look at some verses that show seven proofs of our salvation being irreversible and eternally secure.

1. Our salvation was initiated by God​

Ephesians 1:4 says:


God chose us before we were born, even before the universe was created.
Then, when the time was right for us to be saved, He called us.
Do you think that God would choose us so long ago, send His Son to die for us,
wait for us to be born, and then call and save us, only to abandon us after we’re finally saved?
No, He would not. God is the One who initiated our salvation
before the foundation of the world and carried it out.

2. God’s love for us is eternal​

Jeremiah 31:3 says:


This verse says God loves us with a love that’s eternal.
That means His love is unchanging.
Human love can be fickle, but God’s love never changes;
it doesn’t depend on what we do.
God loves us eternally.

3. God is righteous in saving us​

Psalm 89:14 says:


God’s throne is immovable and unshakable because the foundation of His throne is His righteousness.
God’s love motivated Him to save us from eternal judgment. But God’s righteousness is the base of His salvation.
Many fear God’s righteousness and associate it with His wrath. His righteousness is indeed a fearful thing.
Because God is righteous, He cannot tolerate or overlook sin; He’s bound to judge all unrighteousness.
But God’s righteousness is also the base of our salvation, which is truly wonderful.


Let’s see how this is so. Romans 6:23 says:


This means that all who sin must die.
The righteous God has no other choice but to judge sinners and assign them their wages: eternal death.
But the Lord Jesus came and bore the judgment of death for sinners on the cross.
God accepted Jesus’ sacrifice as the full payment for our sins. Just as in a court of law, a judge can’t require
a debt to be paid twice, God is bound by His righteousness to honor the price Christ paid for us.
So if God wants His throne to stand, He must act in accordance with His righteousness.
Since Jesus paid the penalty for our sins by dying in our place,
God’s righteousness won’t allow Him to demand further payment from us.
This means our salvation is secured by God’s righteousness;
He can’t take it away from us. Praise Him for His righteousness!

4. We have become God’s children​

John 1:12-13 says:


When we accepted Jesus as our Savior, we were saved from eternal perdition.
But that’s not all. These verses tell us we were also begotten of God to be His children.
This is something that can’t be undone.
We all know that children misbehave from time to time.
But no matter how much they may misbehave, their bad behavior can never negate
the fact that they were born of their parents. Even when children are disciplined,
that discipline doesn’t undo their relationship with their parents.
In the same way, our sins and failures can’t negate the fact that we’re born of God
and are children of God. We may sometimes require God’s discipline,
but we’ll always be God’s children, born of His divine life.

5. God keeps us in His hand​

John 10:28-29 says:


All kinds of things may try to snatch us from the Father’s hand—sin, the world,
difficulties, even Satan himself. But in these verses, the Lord Jesus assures us by saying that
it’s impossible for us to be snatched away. No one and nothing is stronger than God.

6. God never changes​

Hebrews 13:8 says:


Everything changes: people, circumstances, environments, the weather.
Even our own emotions fluctuate constantly; we can be up one minute and down the next.
But our salvation doesn’t hinge on our feelings. God never changes and neither does His salvation.

7. Christ has promised not to cast us out​

John 6:37 says:


What a precious, unconditional promise from our Savior!
He will never cast out or reject those who have come to Him.
We can fully trust in Him and His Word to know our salvation is eternally secure.
So we shouldn’t live our Christian life in constant fear and doubt.
Our salvation is eternally secure, and we can and should trust in the Word of God,
which assures us of this fact.

We encourage you to learn more about this important topic by reading
Basic Elements of the Christian Life, vols. 1-3, a free book set that has helped
thousands of believers. If you’re a US resident, you can order the free three-volume set here.
You can also download them from anywhere in the world here.

Source
/

To say that eternal security exists also implies that there might be opposition to the concept, as you state. So, how does scripture teach two different concepts? For either side, on what basis are you determining who is a believer?

 

[Behold]

We O'Darbians are not Eternal Securitists (did I just invent that?). We believe, with the Orthodox, that being born again opens the door to salvation. "Faith" is a lifelong process. Whether we continued in faith will be determined when God, if He exists, tells us we did

"Christ in You, the Hope of Glory", is the final answer regarding "eternal security".

@O'Darby , i would not expect you to know this, as how could you.

Also, there is the walk of faith that is a continuing situation, and there is this.... = "faith is counted by God" that activates God's Salvation ,through Christ, on the behalf of a true believer.
And once again, i would not expect you to know this, as how could you.

 

[Behold]

It simply makes no sense that Harry the Mass Murder receives salvation because he sincerely "accepted Jesus" after being presented with The Four Spiritual Laws

@O'Darby


What makes you believe that the Gospel is "to be presented with the Four Spiritual Laws"?

 

[Behold]

When I was baptised in water @St. SteVen ...it was a declaration of all of my sins being washed away...then I came up out of the water a new creation in Christ....

One of the members read your post and believes that you are explaining... .that you were water baptized and trusted in Christ for the first time.... at the exact time you were water baptized.

Is that true?

 

[Ritajanice]

One of the members read your post and believes that you are explaining... .that you were water baptized and trusted in Christ for the first time.... at the exact time you were water baptized.

Is that true?

I was birthed in the Spirit, “ Spirit gives birth to spirit “ before I was water baptised...water baptism is in obedience to the Lord.

I’ve already explained that God brought me to initially believe in Jesus..then gifted me the faith to believe in the Spirit.

That is my testimony, without the Holy Spirit baptism into Christ, I could never believe because I need the indwelling Spirit to believe, which I have.imo.

The Holy Spirit testifies with my spirit all day every day that I am Gods chosen predestined child.

Water baptism is just outwardly showing or symbolising that the old has gone when we go down into the water, washes away our sin, then we come up as a new creation in Christ...only the Holy Spirit can forgive our sins....our spirit must be Born Again.

 

[Behold]

I was birthed in the Spirit, “ Spirit gives birth to spirit “ before I was water baptised...water baptism is in obedience to the Lord.

Thank you for that clarification.

I was water baptized 11 yrs after i was born again.
I was called into the ministry, before i was water baptized.

When i finally did get WB, it was in a local Church in the States and i used a church's baptism that was not my local church, as my local church in the States, didnt have a Baptism Pool, so we "borrowed" one from another church..

And after it was completed... there was a woman there who who handed me a dry towel, and she whispered to me, as the water was draining out of the Baptism ...

"There Go all your sins......"

As she believes that "water washes your sin away".., as if the Cross of Christ is irrelevant...

Sort of like....>"Well that Cross is fine,..... but just remember that what matters is that water baptism".

There... is a member-mod "Pearl"... here on the forum.... was also water baptized quite a while later after she was born again.

The way i hope it works out for a new believer, is that they get water baptized very soon after they are born again.

 

[Behold]

But, as you know, God is continually saving us,

@St. SteVen ,

take your time and explain what you mean by "God is continually saving us"..

Exactly how is that happening?

What is the Process that God is using, after a person is born again, that is the "continuing" process.. .of "saving us"...

This would be an interesting read.
I hope you can make it.

 

[Ritajanice]

Thank you for that clarification.

I was water baptized 11 yrs after i was born again.
I was called into the ministry, before i was water baptized.

When i finally did get WB, it was in a local Church in the States and i used a church's baptism that was not my local church, as my local church in the States, didnt have a Baptism Pool, so we "borrowed" one from another church..

And after it was completed... there was a woman there who who handed me a dry towel, and she whispered to me, as the water was draining out of the Baptism ...

"There Go all your sins......"

As she believes that "water washes your sin away".., as if the Cross of Christ is irrelevant...

Sort of like....>"Well that Cross is fine,..... but just remember that what matters is that water baptism".

There... is a member-mod "Pearl"... here on the forum.... was also water baptized quite a while later after she was born again.

The way i hope it works out for a new believer, is that they get water baptized very soon after they are born again.

She was a false teacher then ,Behold?

Yes, I got water baptised not long after becoming Born Again.....a Born Again would know that though Brother surely?

That water saves no one,xx

 

[Ritajanice]

I would ask the question, what does continually saved mean?

As it makes no sense to me, I await an answer,xx

Just had a thought, continually saved could mean ....we are always saved...just a thought.

 

[Behold]

.only the Holy Spirit can forgive our sins...

Well, we need to talk about your post, as the Holy Spirit didnt shed His Blood on the Cross.

So, when you make statements, you have to explain what you mean., as we are not talking about scrambling eggs or painting a living room wall.

So, you said that the """ Holy Spirit forgives sin..""":

??
??
??
??

How does that work, as "Jesus came into the world to save sinners".. and the Holy Spirit is the one who leads us to the Cross for that Salvation that Christ's death and blood, provides us, as the Atonement.

So, explain please..

Thx.

 

[Behold]

I would ask the question, what does continually saved mean?

As it makes no sense to me, I await an answer,xx

Just had a thought, continually saved could mean ....we are always saved...just a thought.

I'll give him a way out...

Lets say that He means...>>"The same Jesus who saved us, keeps us saved"..

As that will work as "being continually saved"..by God...

But, we'll have to see if he'll step up to the plate, and give his post an explanation..

 

[Ritajanice]

Well, we need to talk about your post, as the Holy Spirit didnt shed His Blood on the Cross.

So, when you make statements, you have to explain what you mean., as we are not talking about scrambling eggs or painting a living room wall.

So, you said that the Holy Spirit forgives sin..

How does that work, as "Jesus came into the world to save sinners".. and the Holy Spirit is the own who leads us to the Cross for that Salvation that Christ's death and blood, provides us, as the Atonement.

So, explain please..

Thx.

It works because Jesus had to die and was resurrected, he took the sins of the world....

I wasn’t Born Again like you, I was drawn to Jesus by God, I was brought to repentance/ Godly sorrow by God, I was brought to believe initially in Jesus by God, then I received the Holy Spirit into my heart, as he was indwelling me, he testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children, he manifest in our heart, where he gifts us the faith to believe in his Son via the witness, the Holy Spirit.

I received the Living rebirth as I was chosen and predestined to by God..I don’t understand your post above,sorry,xx

There is no belief without the manifestation of faith and the witness of the Holy Spirit...you can’t believe in God without his Living Spirit..

That’s why it’s imperative that “ Spirit gives birth to spirit “ that is the Living spiritual birth that only God can do via his Spirit, you cannot choose that to happen from your own will, it’s an act of God.

We must be Born Of The Spirit, that is what Jesus said....

I didn’t look to any cross and believed...you must be Born Again to understand the cross.in other words Born of the Spirit,xx

 

[Behold]

She was a false teacher then ,Behold?

She was a Pastor's wife.

She is someone who loves Jesus and is born again, but, .. . at some point the Catholic Teaching that is "born again BY Water"... has gotten "tangled up" within her " only Jesus saves"..

It happens to a lot of people.....

Its a very unusual situation within Christianity, in that..... Christians very seldom give Jesus all the Credit for Saving them, and Keeping them saved.

Its the Keeping them saved that they trip over right into broken faith.

99% of the time its..

"Jesus saved me, but water is a big part of it"

No its not....

or

"Jesus saved me, but now i have to keep law and commandments and endure to the end".

No you dont...

So, what is all that?

That is the Devil...
He has this amazing power to change the Cross into......"'The Cross + something you do" = Salvation.

Most Christians have been led in that direction by a Heretic, and bought the lie with their FAITH...., and that is why they want to talk about law and commandments and water and works, and confessing sin.

Whereas Salvation is "the Simplicity that is IN CHRIST".

A.) You took Christ, God took you.

DONE.

Yet, you never hear this on a forum, and that is why i shout it and post about it non-stop and Thread about it constantly... and force it and never stop teaching it.

"can't he ever stop talking about the Cross of Christ"...... or as Episkopos said...>"your whipping boy"....

And thank God for those Stripes that Jesus bore for us all....

You would think that on a "christian forum".......on any of them...that all Christians, would be happy to give Jesus all the Credit for Their Salvation.
But that does not happen... as God would want.
He is left out, actually, while they talk about water baptism, and works, and Mary, and "doing righteousness", and self self self effort effort effort.....

A member just today talked about the "4 spiritual laws" you are to believe to be SAVED.

What is that?

And if they believe that, can they be saved?

A.) I vote no.

My Sister...., its good for these types, that im not the one who owns this Forum, as God knows all that stuff would be outside the door and them with it.

Yes, I got water baptised not long after becoming Born Again.....a Born Again would know that though Brother surely?

Ask @Marymog

She'll tell you...."no water no salvation".

So, you can tell her..

NO CROSS = No Salvation, as you have to remind Catholics about their cult.

That water saves no one,xx

Including the dying Thief on the Cross who is in heaven right now.

He was never water baptized.