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The Trinity is part of the site's official statement of faith. But we do not use it as a divining rod upon our members.
The Case For The Triune GodHead!
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- Aug 10, 2012
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Is the holy spirit God or a third member of the Trinity ? No. Rather, it God's active force or life force, that he uses to create by as well as empower his loyal servants. At Psalms 104, it says: "Let me praise Jehovah. O Jehovah my God, you are very great. With majesty and splendor you are clothed.......Man goes to his work, and he labors until evening. How many your works are, O Jehovah ! You have made all of them in wisdom. The earth is full of what you have made.......When you hide your face, they (man and the animals) are disturbed. If you take away their spirit (or life force), they die and return to the dust. If you send out your spirit (giving them a life force), they are created, and you renew the surface of the ground."(Ps 104:1, 23, 24, 29, 30)
So, when Jehovah sends out his holy spirit, "they (man and animal) are created". If either man or animal's spirit of life force is taken away, they die, for it is like unplugging an electrical appliance so that it "dies", and unless this electrical power is restored or plugged into a power source, the appliance remains "dead".
So, the word spirit (Hebrew ruach) when used as a verb means a living creature's active or life force, so that if the life force is lost or removed, the living creature dies. If the word spirit is a noun, such as at Psalms 104:4, which says: "He (Jehovah) makes his angels spirits, His ministers a consuming fire", then it is an invisible angel (or spirit person) that can produce visible results.
To further show that the word spirit is that which is invisible but produces visible results, is found at John 3:8, which says: "The wind (Greek pneuma) blows where it wants to, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone who has been born from the spirit (Greek pneuma)."
Hence, the Greek word for wind - pneuma - is the same Greek word used for spirit, showing that the spirit here at this scripture is not a person, a but an invisible force that produces visible results (think of a strong wind that tears apart buildings).
As noted at Psalms 104:4, when a noun, it denotes an angel or even Jehovah God as a person that is invisible, for Jesus said to the Samaritan woman: "God is a (invisible) Spirit (Greek pneuma, not a man of flesh and blood), and those worshipping him (not "me" or Jesus, but Jehovah God) must worship with spirit (or not using idols as something that is seen, such as a rosary, cross, statue, etc, see Ex 20:4, 5; 1 Cor 10:14; 1 John 5:21) and truth."(John 4:24)
At Matthew 3, John the Baptist said to the wicked Pharisees and Sadducees: "You offspring of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the coming wrath (at the hands of the Roman armies in 70 C.E.) ? Therefore, produce fruit (or conduct) that befits repentance.......I, for my part, baptize you with water because of your repentance, but the one coming after me is stronger than I am, whose sandals I am not worthy to take off. That one will baptize you with holy spirit and with fire."(Matt 3:7, 11)
Just as water and fire here at Matthew 3 is not a person, so neither is the holy spirit, but a force, just as fire is not a person but a force that can destroy. How many have read Proverbs 18:14 that says: "A person’s spirit (or motivation to live) can sustain him through illness, but who can bear a crushed spirit (or desire to live) ?" Hence, the spirit, be it our spirit or life force or Jehovah's holy spirit, is an invisible life force that produces visible results, and can be "crushed" so that a person wishes to die, unable to "bear a crushed spirit".
At Isaiah 44, it states: "Now listen, O Jacob my servant, and you, O Israel, whom I have chosen.......For I will pour out water on the thirsty one and flowing streams on the dry ground. I will pour out my (holy) spirit on your offspring and my blessing on your descendants."(Isa 44:1, 3)
Just as water and blessings is not a person, but something that can be "poured out", so likewise of the holy spirit, being that which can be "poured out" on a person, causing them to accomplish something that Jehovah wants to be done or overcome.
At Judges 15, please note what happened to Samson when the enemy Philistines were shouting "triumphantly at meeting him" at Lehi when he had been bound by them with new ropes and metal fetters, that "then Jehovah's (holy) spirit empowered him (Samson), and the ropes on his arms became like linen threads that were scorched with fire, and his fetters melted off his hands. He now found a fresh jawbone of a male donkey; he reached out and grabbed it and struck down 1,000 men with it."(Judges 15:13-15; see also Judges 14:6 with regard to tearing apart a lion by means of being empowered by Jehovah's spirit, as well verse 19 where Jehovah's holy spirit empowered Samson to slaughter 30 Philistines)
Hence, the holy spirit is not a person, but Jehovah's active force.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
The only divining rod is Scripture.
Christians would be able to show from Scripture what God says is true.
The only vain argument is any argument about God that does not include Scripture.
The only false argument about God is from Scripture not rightly divided.
Scripture is the dividing rod between what is true about God and what is not.
The only Scripture necessary to prove the Son is God is John 1: And the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
Is the holy spirit God or a third member of the Trinity?
Yes.
Hence, the holy spirit is not a person, but Jehovah's active force.
A person is a he. A force is an it.
God is a Spirit. God is a person, not an it.
We are born of God and of His spirit. We are born of a Person, not an it.
We are persons born of the Spirit. We are not its born of an it.
Them that are born of a force, are not born of God, who is a person, not an it.
God the Holy Spirit is Scripture. God the it-force is not.
Them born of the it-force are not born of God, who is a Person indeed.
please note what happened to Samson
Please note what happened to Samson, when he treated God like a force. He became an it without power of God.
My innocent wife-babe in Christ asked a question:
"I thought Jehovah was a Person."
Out of the mouth of babes...And yes, she is a babe indeed.
Is the holy spirit God or a third member of the Trinity?
Yes.
Hence, the holy spirit is not a person, but Jehovah's active force.
A person is a he. A force is an it.
God is a Spirit. God is a person, not an it.
We are born of God and of His spirit. We are born of a Person, not an it.
We are persons born of the Spirit. We are not its born of an it.
Them that are born of a force, are not born of God, who is a person, not an it.
God the Holy Spirit is Scripture. God the it-force is not.
Them born of the it-force are not born of God, who is a Person indeed.
please note what happened to Samson
Please note what happened to Samson, when he treated God like a force. He became an it without power of God.
My innocent wife-babe in Christ asked a question:
"I thought Jehovah was a Person."
Out of the mouth of babes...And yes, she is a babe indeed.
I explained that the word spirit, ruach in Hebrew and pneuma in Greek, can be either a verb (as an invisible force) or a noun (or person that is invisible, or spirit person), depending on the context, and that it is that which is invisible but produces visible results.
A dictionary says of spirit: "1. life force of individual: a vital force that characterizes a living being as being alive 2. will: somebody’s will, sense of self, or enthusiasm for living 3. enthusiasm: an enthusiasm and energy for living 4. disposition: somebody’s personality or temperament: She has a generous spirit. 5. attitude: somebody’s attitude or state of mind: in the spirit of compromise."(Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005) It is interesting that a dictionary is more accurate than those who call themselves "Christian".
I showed that John 3:8 helps sincere individuals to grasp this to be the case, for Jesus said: "The wind (Greek pneuma) blows where it wants to, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone who has been born from the spirit (Greek pneuma)."
For example, at Genesis 3:8, it says: "Later they heard the voice of Jehovah God (see Isa 12:2, KJV) as he was walking in the garden about the breezy part (or windy part, Hebrew ruach) of the day, and the man and his wife hid from the face of Jehovah God among the trees of the garden."
At Genesis 6:3, it says: "Then Jehovah said: “My spirit (Hebrew ruach) will not tolerate man indefinitely, because he is only flesh. Accordingly, his days will amount to 120 years.” At Genesis 8:1, it says: "But God gave attention to Noah and to all the wild animals and domestic animals that were with him in the ark, and God caused a wind (Hebrew ruach) to blow over the earth, and the waters began to subside."
So, the context determines whether it is speaking of the "wind" or "spirit", both being an invisible force that causes visible results. Jehovah's "spirit" or his being firmly motivated to remove the wickedness from the earth due to "every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only bad all the time" (Gen 6:5), shows that the word "spirit" is an unseen force or person but can bring about changes that which is seen, which became the Global Deluge in 2370 B.C.E.
At Genesis 41:8, it says of Egypt's Pharaoh during the time of Joseph, after he had a number of dreams that deeply bothered him: "But in the morning, his spirit (Hebrew ruach) became agitated. So he sent for all the magic-practicing priests of Egypt and all her wise men. Pharʹaoh related his dreams to them, but there was no one who could interpret them for Pharʹaoh."
At Genesis 45:27, 28, when Jacob heard from eleven of his sons that his Joseph was alive after returning from Egypt with grains (or cereals) to eat, after having been gone for some 22 years since the age of 17, it says: "When they went on telling him all the words that Joseph had spoken to them and when he saw the wagons that Joseph had sent to carry him, the spirit (Hebrew ruach) of their father Jacob began to revive. Israel exclaimed: “It is enough ! My son Joseph is still alive ! I must go and see him before I die !”
To further show that the word "spirit" is interconnected with life, Genesis 7:22 says of every living land and air creature on the earth not housed within the ark: "Everything on dry land that had the breath of life (literally "the breath of the spirit of life", Hebrew neshamah ruach) in its nostrils died."
So, a person cannot be alive unless they have breath that allows a person to have "spirit" or their life force, so that breathing and life force are married for fleshly creatures such as us humans, like husband and wife, like electricity for an appliance. Unplug the appliance and it stops "dead in its tracks".
Without breathing, no life; without a life force, no life. Thus, as a verb, it is an unseen force, but when it is a noun, it becomes an unseen person or "spirit of God", either Jehovah God, the righteous angels or the wicked demons. For example, at Genesis 7:15, it shows this to be the case: "They kept going to Noah inside the ark, two by two, of every sort of flesh that has the breath of life (literally "the spirit of life", Hebrew ruach chay)."
So, a person is alive because they have "spirit" and when that "spirit" leaves them, they die, for Psalms 104,29 says: "If you (Jehovah God) take away their (anything that breathes) spirit (Hebrew ruach), they die and return to the dust."
How many who call themselves "Christian" have done extensive research to determine what the Bible really teaches ? I could answer that question, but will leave it blank for now. I could add more to this, but this will suffice for now, for I have to believe that no one is really interested in determining what the Bible really teaches.(see Matt 13:13)
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
an invisible force that causes visible results
Neither the Spirit of God nor that of man is a force, but a person.
Gob breathes into us His breath and Spirit of life, and we become living souls, not forces.
The Son on earth was the express image of God's Person. God is a Spirit. The Spirit of God is a Person, not an inanimate blind force. A force does not see and think and do by will. The wind was used as an analogy of the Spirit of God, in how we are inspired of Him, whensoever we here Him, and so we know He is true, even as the wind when it blows.
Only those refusing God the Spirit would dive into a long study to try and produce the Spirit of God as a force and not a person.
It is a perfect example of ever learning and never coming to the truth of God by that learning, because the purpose of that learning is to reject the truth of God plainly written in Scripture.
The Word was God, and the Word was made flesh. There is no amount of deep dive into the Greek, nor carefully long and hard study of words to reject the simple Scripture as written.
One either believes it, or doesn't.
The name of Jehovah is nowhere mentioned in Scripture, after His new name is called Jesus by Scripture.
Jesus is the name called of God, that is above every name ever named.
Either believe it or not.
The real question is why reject simple Scripture as written? Why idolize a past new name of God, that was Jehovah, and so reject that risen God to worship, Who's name is now Jesus?
Mystery Babylon
tigger 2
Well-Known Member
Robert Derrick wrote:
"The only Scripture necessary to prove the Son is God is John 1: And the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh."
.....................................
Actually some trinitarian Greek experts and translators find a different translation for this verse.
And my personal study of the grammar of John 1:1c and the rest of all the verses which are proper parallels to John 1:1c show that "God" should be rendered as "a god."
Examining the Trinity
Examining the Trinity: John 1:1c Primer - For Grammatical Rules That Supposedly "Prove" the Trinity
And Hemlock wrote:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Hoo-Wah! The Son be God too!
.....................................
As for Is. 9:6, A number of translators and scholars have translated this differently also (from my personal study):
Examining the Trinity: Isa. 9:6 "Mighty God, Eternal Father"
"The only Scripture necessary to prove the Son is God is John 1: And the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh."
.....................................
Actually some trinitarian Greek experts and translators find a different translation for this verse.
And my personal study of the grammar of John 1:1c and the rest of all the verses which are proper parallels to John 1:1c show that "God" should be rendered as "a god."
Examining the Trinity
Examining the Trinity: John 1:1c Primer - For Grammatical Rules That Supposedly "Prove" the Trinity
And Hemlock wrote:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Hoo-Wah! The Son be God too!
.....................................
As for Is. 9:6, A number of translators and scholars have translated this differently also (from my personal study):
Examining the Trinity: Isa. 9:6 "Mighty God, Eternal Father"
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GEN2REV
Well-Known Member
Yet another case of: God said, man said.
God said: "Jesus is God."
Trinitarian Greek Experts, Translators and Scholars said: "No, He's actually not."
And round and round we go.
It doesn't support any dynamic of the entirety of the Bible to claim that Jesus is not God and search and search for ways and translations to make that so. It is a waste of time to even consider experts' (man's) opinions on the Bible when they contradict what is plainly stated in scripture. Especially when it is stated many times, many ways.
"For who is God save the Lord? (Jesus) or who is a Rock (Jesus) save our God?"
(Psalm 18:31)
tigger 2
Well-Known Member
..............................
God said? Do you mean that man's translation of John's Greek writing is God's word?
A careful examination of John's use of Greek grammar shows that he always intended an indefinite predicate noun ('a man,' 'a prophet,' 'a murderer,' etc.) in clauses which are truly parallel to John 1:1c.
I don't understand how you could honestly write the above post if you had actually examined the links that were given in my post. They show that most translations of the NT Greek of John 1:1c are erroneous.
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tigger 2
Well-Known Member
GEN2REV writes: "For who is God save the Lord? (Jesus) or who is a Rock (Jesus) save our God?"
(Psalm 18:31)
A more accurate translation of the Hebrew text shows this verse should read:
"For who is God save Jehovah [YHWH]? And who is a rock besides our God?" - ASV.
"For who is God but Yahweh [YHWH], who is a rock but our God?" - NJB.
YHWH does not mean "a rock" or "the Lord". YHWH is frequently called a rock.
(Psalm 18:31)
A more accurate translation of the Hebrew text shows this verse should read:
"For who is God save Jehovah [YHWH]? And who is a rock besides our God?" - ASV.
"For who is God but Yahweh [YHWH], who is a rock but our God?" - NJB.
YHWH does not mean "a rock" or "the Lord". YHWH is frequently called a rock.
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GEN2REV
Well-Known Member
The BIBLE is God's Word.
New 'translations' (interpretations/OPINIONS) of what people, who are nobody important at all, believe the Bible 'actually' says aren't worth a trickle of cold sewer water. It's just as ridiculous as science and medicine changing their mind every decade about what they'd previously declared was undeniable, proven FACT.
And there's no need to examine your links to know what the Bible says. I've examined the Bible, in many versions and translations for well over a decade - cover to cover … multiple times.
You are a man (human) giving your (man's) opinion of another man/men's opinions about how scripture is translated. Posting those opinions online are not grounds for ALL to automatically forget everything they've read and studied for many years about God and the Bible. That is quite simply arrogant and very blasphemous.
GEN2REV said:
Above you can clearly see that I did not claim God/YHWH was a/the Rock. I indicated that Jesus is a/the Rock - as scripture clearly indicates.
Psalm 118:22 "The Stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. (chief corner stone)"
1 Peter 2:6 "... a chief corner stone, … he that believeth on Him shall not be confounded."
Romans 9:33 "... a stumblingstone and a rock of offence: … whosoever believeth on Him shall not be ashamed."
1 Peter 2:8 "... a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, to them which stumble at The Word (Jesus), being disobedient …"
Matthew 21:44 "... whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: …"
1 Corinthians 10:4 "... they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
Which is why I don't 'go to the greek', nor play the scholar, to know the first principles of Christ.
Because you then start trying to believe in a god, rather than the God.
I.e. I could care less what some 'trinitarian Greek experts and translators' think.
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise.
Ignorance of wise experts makes for wisdom of Scripture unto salvation.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
The Almighty God known to Abraham called Himself a new name to Moses, Jehovah. The God of Israel called Jehovah then prophesied He would call Himself and other new name out of His own mouth, Jesus:
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Jesus was the god of Israel in the flesh, who is never called Jehovah in scripture again, because Jesus' name is above every name that god ever called Himself.
Them that worship 'YHWY' and 'Jehovah' are worship titles and names, not the risen God of Israel Jesus, who is called Lord of lords, and King of kings.
For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible. (Deut 8)
That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords. (1 Tim 6)
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. (Rev 17)
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. (Rev 19)
The God of Israel that spoke to Moses is the risen God of Israel that spoke to His apostles, and His name was jehovah to Moses, and is now Jesus to us, and He has always been, is, and ever shall be Lord of Lords, King of Kings.
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
Jesus stated:
God is a Spirit, and those worshipping HIM MUST worship with SPIRIT and TRUTH. (John 5:24) Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the FATHER with SPIRIT and TRUTH, for indeed, the FATHER is looking for ones like these to worship HIM. (John 4:23)
I'll stick to my Lord and Savior. Anyways the trinity doesn't beget Salvation. (Romans 10:9)
Father, Son and Holy Spirit are deeply present in Matthew 28, John's Gospel, Romans 8, John's First Epistle, etc. There is really no avoiding the vital doctrine of God in Three Persons.
Is it really so clearly evident in the scriptures or is it because it has a history among men in church organizations that it is a well known doctrine?
To you it may be as you put it, 'vital', but I do wonder how many people would find the doctrine from the scriptures alone if they had never heard about it or read about from other sources?
Father, Son and Holy Spirit are deeply present in Matthew 28, John's Gospel, Romans 8, John's First Epistle, etc.
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